Author Topic: The Case Against TESLA  (Read 19696 times)

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Offline wraper

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2018, 11:47:18 am »
 

Offline Yansi

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #76 on: April 16, 2018, 11:50:41 am »
Wearing safety goggles seems to be also a cult these days.  |O
 

Offline wraper

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #77 on: April 16, 2018, 12:19:22 pm »
Wearing safety goggles seems to be also a cult these days.  |O
They are at the factory, it's legally required  :palm:. If you are ready to loose your eyes, don't blame employer then. There is another video where they go nearby working machines/tools.

 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #78 on: April 16, 2018, 07:35:33 pm »
Tesla is a car/battery company, cults are systems of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object
Tesla makes things, Cults worship things.
Tesla uses cutting edge science to make products and money, cults do not
Tesla gets money from the government, cults do not.

FYI, most cults get government money, if indirectly in the form of tax breaks.  At least such is the case in the US.  Some may obtain grants for various reasons.  (No, I don't have any specific examples, but I think I heard there's an Israel lobby group that might be considered a religious terrorist cell by certain parties.  Well, given e.g. Iran's opinion of anything Jewish, but I mean more than just them.  Well.  Them and their friends probably. Maybe I'm not helping here..)

Oh actually, UK's Anglicans count; they're part of the state, in some manner or another.

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Offline mtdoc

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #79 on: April 16, 2018, 08:27:27 pm »
I find this fascination and obsession some have with Tesla and Elon Musk very interesting.  It manifests here with the various Anti Musk/Anti-Tesla/Anti-Hyperloop/Anti-Solar City posts and threads, but the same phenomenon can be seen all over the internet - like the video in the OP.

It's the mirror image of the "cult of personality" worshiping that some show for certain politicians or celebrities. Instead of worship,  some people seem to have an obsession with trying to continually tear down Musk's achievements.  It really is a social phenomenon.  Sometimes it is clearly politically motivated but not always. What motivates some to spend so much time and energy on this?

Musk is an interesting character to be sure. But there is no denying he has achieved much. The harping on government subsidies I find just silly.  Not only because the industries and corporations he competes with have long histories of equal or larger government subsidies but also because people seem to ignore the fact that he has a fiduciary responsibility to his shareholders to exploit any subsidies available to him.  It's just being a good businessman. As far as operating at a loss, and high stock multiples, that phenomenon is not unique to Tesla.  It's the common tech business model since the dot.com bubble. Amazon is the poster child for that approach. At least Musk, unlike Bezos, has some vision for betterment of mankind, even if you disagree with that vision (and I personally do not agree with some of it)

As for Tesla, I've said before, its survival will be dependent on whether it can deliver the Model 3 in large quantities, at a profit. But even if they prove unable to do that and ultimately go belly up, it is hard to argue that that Tesla has not achieved remarkable things given the overwhelming forces of the entrenched ICE focused automobile makers and oil companies who have had decades of dominance that has enabled them to squash other domestic upstart competitors over and over again.  I find the fact that Tesla has gotten this far to be amazing.  :clap:


« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 01:49:54 am by mtdoc »
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #80 on: April 16, 2018, 08:36:57 pm »
Yeah the way the automotive industry and regulations are set up makes it virtually impossible for anyone to break into the market, the costs and efforts required are simply huge. It's one of the reasons the auto industry is so boring these days, most cars all look the same, Tesla is about the first really innovative mass produced car out there since the classic Saab in the 80s. In the period from the 50s through the late 70s there was all sorts of unique stuff on the market before most of it got regulated out of existence.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #81 on: April 16, 2018, 08:42:33 pm »
The guy in the video is correct Tesla and Elon Musk have a cult following.

Any idea how much money people have given Tesla/Musk on faith?  Tesla has half a billion dolloar of tax free/interest free money in the form of deposits on a car that Tesla is claiming that will be built.

How may people would give Ford, GM, VW or Toyota a cash deposit for a car they hope will be built in a few years?  It takes a master marketer our a curator leader to pull that one off.


One of the reason we are in the transportation mess we are in is because of what GM and others did the the electric trolley business.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy#/media/File%3APacific-Electric-Red-Cars-Awaiting-Destruction.jpg
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #82 on: April 16, 2018, 09:01:41 pm »
While I don't disagree that Tesla has a cult following, how many cars have Ford, GM, etc that are unique enough that one would want to make a cash deposit on it? I bet if Ford decided (and were allowed) to reproduce exactly something like the classic GT-40 or 1967 Mustang people would be lined up around the block to make a deposit on one. Right now Tesla makes some very unique cars, they are on top of the game for pure EVs, other manufactures are catching up fast though.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #83 on: April 16, 2018, 09:24:54 pm »
While I don't disagree that Tesla has a cult following, how many cars have Ford, GM, etc that are unique enough that one would want to make a cash deposit on it? I bet if Ford decided (and were allowed) to reproduce exactly something like the classic GT-40 or 1967 Mustang people would be lined up around the block to make a deposit on one. Right now Tesla makes some very unique cars, they are on top of the game for pure EVs, other manufactures are catching up fast though.


I agree.  But here's the thing Tesla is making a new car which is easier to meet federal and state standards for safety and emissions.  Reproducing an existing car invovles a lot of retrofitting.  Just look at what VW did the beatle.  You know what would be really intersting woudl be if Ford were to remake the GT-40 or '67 Mustang but make it a plug-in hyprid electric.

 





 

Offline james_s

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #84 on: April 16, 2018, 11:11:28 pm »
I've often thought there should be an exemption class, I mean if I want to buy a brand new 1975 car that meets 1975 safety regulations why can't I? I can buy a brand new motorcycle that is no safer than a 1975 motorcycle. As long as I know I'm buying a car that doesn't include modern safety features and amenities I ought to be able to. Thankfully I can still drive an old car without being forced to upgrade it.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #85 on: April 17, 2018, 06:59:06 am »
A lot of the modern safety features are to protect other people when you run them over during a DUI...
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #86 on: April 17, 2018, 09:21:22 pm »
And again production has stopped for the model3 in the assembly and in the battery factory.
Employees sent home without pay.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #87 on: April 17, 2018, 09:39:17 pm »
Production stop is fine. That does happen. If you find a problem with the process they have to stop and fix. I’ve seen that in every production line I’ve seen.

Sending employees home without pay is not ok though. If I turned up at work and no one opened the doors I’d expect to be paid.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #88 on: April 17, 2018, 11:35:05 pm »
And again production has stopped for the model3 in the assembly and in the battery factory.
Employees sent home without pay.
Second part obviously is a product of your imagination.
 

Offline ez24

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Re: The Case Against Jealous Whiners
« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2018, 02:12:02 am »
Employees sent home without pay.

From

https://www.buzzfeed.com/carolineodonovan/tesla-model-3-production-shutdown-delay-elon-musk?utm_term=.pgdzOYap2#.duyMDEvga

comes this
Quote
During the pause, workers are expected to use vacation days or stay home without pay; a small number of workers may be offered paid work elsewhere in the factory.

So if there is no work and you have no vacation - then yes

Is there any time on this shutdown? 
YouTube and Website Electronic Resources ------>  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/other-blog-specific/a/msg1341166/#msg1341166
 


Offline DougSpindler

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2018, 04:18:51 am »
I've often thought there should be an exemption class, I mean if I want to buy a brand new 1975 car that meets 1975 safety regulations why can't I? I can buy a brand new motorcycle that is no safer than a 1975 motorcycle. As long as I know I'm buying a car that doesn't include modern safety features and amenities I ought to be able to. Thankfully I can still drive an old car without being forced to upgrade it.

Same reason VW had to stop producing the VW Beatle.....  Did not and could not meet polution standards.
As much as I loved the VW bug, I have to admit our politions/goverment did the right thing by imposting strict polutions standards.

I can remember as a kid having smog days in the summer months.  The sky was greenish/yellow brown and there were days when visibility was only a few miles becase the smog was so thick.  We were told to stay inside.  If we went outside the smog would burn your throat.

All of these clean air standards cleared our skies.  I can't remember the last time we had a smog day.  Must be 30 or more years.
You might be against big governement, but I hope you join me in thanking our electied officials in forcing the car companies to making cars whihc produce less polution. 







 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2018, 04:23:14 am »
Musk’s email to Tesla employees today.

Elon is a smart cookie. He may yet fail, but I wouldn’t bet against him.

My favorite part of the email:

“Walk out of a meeting or drop off a call as soon as it is obvious you aren’t adding value. It is not rude to leave, it is rude to make someone stay and waste their time.”

F@$# yeah!
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 04:38:25 am by mtdoc »
 
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #93 on: April 18, 2018, 04:37:10 am »
The Commonwealth Club in San Francisco had, Ashlee Vance, author of Elon Musk: Tesla, SpaceX, and the Quest for a Fantastic Future give a talk about Elon.  Apparently he's a real ass to his employees like Steve Jobs.  (Not sure if people heard the story of Jobs firing employees just for being in the elevator he was getting into at Apple.)  Apparently Musk is almost as bad.

If you know very little about Musk's life this podcast is well worth listening it.
The Commonwealth club has had three talks/podcasts about Musk.

https://www.commonwealthclub.org/events/archive/podcast/tesla-impossible-until-its-not
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #94 on: April 18, 2018, 05:54:21 am »
Most of the guys at the top of companies like that are real asses. It just seems to come with the territory, you don't get into a position like that by being a nice guy.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #95 on: April 18, 2018, 10:13:48 am »
Most of the guys at the top of companies like that are real asses. It just seems to come with the territory, you don't get into a position like that by being a nice guy.

I agree.  I think I remember hearing Ford nd Edison were that way too.
Did you read the book or listen to the podcast?  Really interesting.  Mush started literally nothing wouldd up creating PayPal.  Which he then sold for $700 million.  He then started Tesla, SpaceX.  Out of 3 rockets, he lost 2.  Could not get any investors for SpaceX or Tesla and needed money.

He parked his jet and started flying Southwest Airlines buying the cheapest tickets to talk to investors. 

He also shut down the production line at Tesla and had every employees on the phone calling potential customers to get them to place.a cash deposit on a car.  They pre-sold enough cars to “save” Tesla from bankruptcy. 

SpaceX lost two rockets and he used the money from Tesla to fund the launching of the third rocket.  Had he lost this one Tesla, SpaceX and I think Solar City would all be bankrupt today and Musk would be penniless once again.

The guy in pretty amazing that he’s willing to risk everything he owns on a car company, rocket company and a solar panel installation company all at the same time.  To succeed in anyone of these three businesses is so highly unlikely.  But you have to hand it to this guy as he’s doing it.

He’s the Otto von Bismarck of the day.  Otto fought three wars simultaneously against Denmark, Austria, and France and won all three.  Elon is essentially doing the same.


 

Offline Marco

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2018, 10:20:22 am »
Or he could be a later German ruler, fighting on multiple fronts and losing it all. Time will tell.

IMO if a fireman had been walking behind that firetruck it would have been all over for Tesla ... they are playing a dangerous game with autopilot. The excuse that it's driver responsibility will only fly as long as only drivers get killed.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 10:23:17 am by Marco »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #97 on: April 18, 2018, 10:27:33 am »
SpaceX lost two rockets and he used the money from Tesla to fund the launching of the third rocket.
You are inventing the facts. First of all, first 3 rockets were lost, not 2. Secondly, there was no money flow between SpaceX and Tesla. And there was no money to take out from tesla, to begin with.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 10:30:22 am by wraper »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #98 on: April 18, 2018, 11:35:14 am »
Bears shit in the woods. The Pope is Catholic and rockets blow up.

 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: The Case Against TESLA
« Reply #99 on: April 18, 2018, 04:25:03 pm »
Or he could be a later German ruler, fighting on multiple fronts and losing it all. Time will tell.

IMO if a fireman had been walking behind that firetruck it would have been all over for Tesla ... they are playing a dangerous game with autopilot. The excuse that it's driver responsibility will only fly as long as only drivers get killed.


That German ruler came about 50 years later.

Hasn’t autopilot cars and trucks been about a year away for the past 30 years.  I worked in a building which had two autonomous mail carts.  They followed a wire beneath the carpet.  But they were only traveling 2 mph.

Hasn’t auto pilot for take offs and landing been around for 40 years or more?  We stilll don’t trust is and pilots still are in control for landings and takeoffs.  And just like cars it’s been proven they both are hackable.   

 


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