Author Topic: Wall-plug Solar?  (Read 12229 times)

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Offline Simon

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2018, 07:50:14 am »
Can we calm down. Personally I would expect ebay to prevent listings that are illegal in the destination country but I'm not banking on it. Personally I have a 1.5KW system plugged into the wall, yes plugged in. it is a sunnyboy inverter, I would never trust those chinese ones without a lot of proof, there is a reason why the likes of sunnyboy are more expensive and unless you are putting in at least 1.5KW its not worth it.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2018, 07:59:47 am »
Personally I would expect ebay to prevent listings that are illegal in the destination country but I'm not banking on it.
They don’t.

Quote
Personally I have a 1.5KW system plugged into the wall, yes plugged in. it is a sunnyboy inverter, I would never trust those chinese ones without a lot of proof, there is a reason why the likes of sunnyboy are more expensive and unless you are putting in at least 1.5KW its not worth it.

I had no idea SMA made a grid tied inverter that connects to the grid by simply plugging into a wall socket. Model number or link?
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2018, 08:08:41 am »
Err you can pug a plug on the end of any wire on anything. I didn't say they put that in the instructions. I live alone so its not a problem for me. it was just a lazy way of installing it. Legally in the UK I'm not allowed to do my own wiring anyway.
 
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Offline f4eru

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2018, 08:44:33 am »
Yeah, let's build a dangerous appliance.
Like, that's a great idea, and a really good advice to give to others......

Offline Simon

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2018, 09:59:58 am »
I'm not sure what you are referring to. As I alluded to above what one does for oneself one might not do on a commercial basis, but on the other hand given the risk to life would I trust some no name unit from china just because they self certified it as CE? hell no!
 
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Offline f4eru

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2018, 06:06:53 pm »
I'm referring to that :
Quote
you can pug a plug on the end of any wire on anything.
Dangerous advice.
Dangerous for yourself, for other people around you, for people who will follow that kind of advice, and the people around them.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 06:08:37 pm by f4eru »
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2018, 07:04:53 pm »
I'm referring to that :
Quote
you can pug a plug on the end of any wire on anything.
Dangerous advice.
Dangerous for yourself, for other people around you, for people who will follow that kind of advice, and the people around them.


What on earth are you talking about. We have all already advised not to trust dubious units from china that DO come with a plug on. My comment was in reference to a fully qualified and tested sunny boy inverter. Guess why we have regs about this and anti islanding...... its to protect electric board workers in the street that don't go knocking on doors every time they turn the power off to see if someone has a GTI installed and they certainly don't want to be electrocuted by a GTI on a sunny day that is PERMANENTLY connected to the grid..... As has already been stated, we are talking about the mains here and only those knowledgeable enough should be touching this sort of thing and don't buy a cheap GTI from china that does simply plug into the wall.
 

Offline Malvineous

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2018, 05:14:26 am »
I'm a bit late to this thread but have been wondering about those cheap wall-plug Chinese grid-tied inverters as well.  I just watched Dave's video about the paltry 6c/kWh feed-in tariff he gets, and the thought crossed my mind that by feeding in the power through the wall, you'd be effectively increasing your feed-in tariff to equal what you pay for electricity, assuming you have an electricity meter that can run backwards in the event you generate more power than you're using at the time.

However some research on this showed that here in Australia, it seems that it is not permitted to wire up grid-tied power sources in this way.  It seems like you need two separate meters.  I found a story of someone who had their professional solar system installed this way and their meter was running backwards, and their energy supplier's billing system could not cope with a negative difference in meter readings and consequently they ended up with a massive bill, which took some sorting out and ended up with them having to get the system rewired properly.

So it sounds like if you were to use such a system in Australia, you'd have to be careful to make sure that overall you used more power than you generated so that each meter reading showed some increase from the last, otherwise you might get unwanted attention from the electricity retailer trying to work out why you aren't using a feed-in tariff like you're supposed to.

I can't find anything about the legality of the units themselves, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same as unapproved POTS telephone equipment - it may not illegal to buy or possess, but it is to connect it up to the network.

EDIT: Found this explanation which includes some info from an SA Power Networks document:

Quote
Customers are also reminded that they should not connect an SEG [Small Embedded Generator] to a mechanical disk type meter.  This will cause the meter to turn backwards giving the appearance that a customer has consumed less energy from the grid than they actually have.  This is considered to be a breach of section 85(1)(b) of the Electricity Act of 1996, as the exporting of energy interferes with the meter's ability to correctly measure the consumption of energy supplied and used by the installation connected to the Network.  Civil penalties up to a maximum of $10,000 or two years imprisonment can be applied in these situations.

That page also explains that modern meters (those with digital readouts) will count exported power the same as imported power, so using 1 kWh and feeding back 1 kWh will show as if you've used 2 kWh total, so you'll be billed for both the power you've used *and* the power you've exported.  So if you have a digital electricity meter, one of these plug-in inverters will cost you more than not using it.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 05:46:11 am by Malvineous »
 

Offline fourtytwo42

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2018, 09:14:15 am »
Different electricity meters behave differently when presented with reverse power flow, some count it the same as forward power, some dont count it all, and rarely they count backwards. Many will light a fraud led that is liable to trigger an investigation next time your meter is read. The best way is to either ask your electric company or search for the meter model number on the web to find it's charecteristic. The nature of the source of the reverse power is irrelivent as far as the meter is concerned. Here in the UK I was lucky enough to find a site where all the commonly fitted meters were listed along with there "export" compatability, could I find it to post you a link.....not!! In any case not much use in Aus :)
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2018, 01:32:17 pm »
What a way to encourage the adoption of solar.  Some areas in the US play the same game.

 

Offline Simon

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2018, 07:45:55 pm »
The problem is that they will not buy it from you for the same price they sell it to you for. This partly justified as they have to maintain the cabling although in reality anything I quietly dump into the grid won't have to travel that far..... In the UK it is like AUS at the moment at 4p/KWh while you can pay between 12 and 18p/KWh to import. given the ripoff and that my roof is not facing the right way I just stuck 1.5KW of panels in my garden and plugged a sunny boy into a socket. I have not had problems yet although my supplier can't read my smart meter yet but I doubt a problem will arise. my monitor shows negative power but I doubt the meter is counting it backwards.
 

Online DougSpindler

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2018, 11:46:06 am »
I’m surprised no one has mentioned how dangerous this is.  Not for the OP, but for utility workers.  If inverters are tied to mains, they can back feed and kill untility company workers. SS
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2018, 11:48:45 am »
I’m surprised no one has mentioned how dangerous this is.  Not for the OP, but for utility workers.  If inverters are tied to mains, they can back feed and kill untility company workers. SS

In the UK the limit is 4KW apparently something to do with this but not sure how. Proper GTI's - not chinese garbage would have been properly designed for this.
 

Offline fourtytwo42

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2018, 11:52:34 am »
I’m surprised no one has mentioned how dangerous this is.  Not for the OP, but for utility workers.  If inverters are tied to mains, they can back feed and kill untility company workers. SS
If you read the thread you will find someone who didnt know what they were talking about already mentioned this, provided the grid tie is properly designed and meets the relevent standards no such danger exists and I for one have never heard of a grid tie that did not meet these requirements. Please dont obscure the point of the thread with fluff.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2018, 03:23:36 pm »
I’m surprised no one has mentioned how dangerous this is.  Not for the OP, but for utility workers.  If inverters are tied to mains, they can back feed and kill untility company workers. SS
If you read the thread you will find someone who didnt know what they were talking about already mentioned this, provided the grid tie is properly designed and meets the relevent standards no such danger exists and I for one have never heard of a grid tie that did not meet these requirements. Please dont obscure the point of the thread with fluff.

The danger is real. There are many “wall plug” inverters sold on ebay, etc that do not meet UL 1741 or any other anti islanding standards and absolutely no “wall plug” inverter that does meet those standards.

Modifying a properly designed and certified inverter so that it can be “plugged in” is not the same thing.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 03:26:55 pm by mtdoc »
 

Online DougSpindler

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2018, 03:26:46 pm »
Just saying one good be back feeding to the grid and kill someone who thought the grid was dead.
 

Online DougSpindler

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2018, 03:32:10 pm »
Here’s the othering to think about when illegally backfeeding to the grid.  If you do happen to kill someone I’m sure you would be charged with murder.  And I’m sure your power meter would make a good witness against you.
 

Offline fourtytwo42

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2018, 03:46:08 pm »
Here we go again another load of mindless trash, you people are so busy bieng self righteous you dont stop to think what is the point of this thread, ohh I know it's somewhere I can be cool and make noise upon! Why dont you go back to electric cars or something  :-DD
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2018, 04:51:45 pm »
fourtytwo42,

Your sig says you are interested in all things green/eco.   If so, perhaps you should consider taking a more professional attitude to solar PV systems. 

It is not just utility workers who are endangered by grid tie inverters without proper anti-islanding features.  Where I live, we often have wind storms that take out residential overhead powerlines when trees come down.   After a big storm it is often several days before the utility can get to all repairs. In the meantime they shutdown power to lines that are lying on the ground for obvious safety reasons..  Any improperly designed grid tie inverter feeding power to those lines is a danger to any neighborhood kids, animals or others ignorant enough to contact them.

This danger should be obvious to anyone with a modicum of electrical knowledge.   The OP of this thread was asking specifically about this danger.

There are many threads on this forum about the dangers of isolation transformers, poorly protected DMMs, etc.  Many of those threads raise valid concerns, but in other cases the concerns are overblown and alarmist IMHO.   This topic is not one of those cases. In this case the danger is not just to the equipment user, but to innocent bystanders.

[ I for one have never heard of a grid tie that did not meet these requirements.

All it takes is a quick eBay search for "grid tie inverter" to pull up >1000 inverters - the vast majority of which it should be obvious to most knowledgable  forum members are not likely to be properly designed or have any valid anti-islanding certification.   There are youtube video teardowns of several of these that confirm that point.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 04:59:14 pm by mtdoc »
 
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Offline fourtytwo42

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2018, 06:02:12 pm »
I don't wish to get into a particular spat here BUT this subgect has already been exhaustivly covered in this thread before today. Due to some recent activity the thread came to the attention of some thread jumpers who obviosly did not read it fully before restating what had already been said. As a matter of fact the first Chinese GTI I picked from your link includes the following wording "Protection:Islanding; Short-circuit; Low Voltage; Over Voltage; Over temperature Protection".

What you people are doing is preventing any sane discussion of high voltage matters by jumping on any thread that catches there eye and harping on about safety. I would expect every person here to be safety concious and any of us with experience try to guide people in a safe manner. But to stifle discussion and overload threads with copybook quotations does nobodies understanding any good whatsoever.  Personally I doubt many have any relevent experience when it comes to high voltage engineering.

Whilst I agree with your lurid picture of live wires flaying all living things within a substantial radius the likelyhood in reality is less than being hit with an errant piece of spacejunk :)

So lets all keep a sense of proportion and allow sane discussion rather than copybook readings of some textbook! AND please can people actually read through an entire thread before deciding to add irrelivent or repeated information. Armchair warriors in my book are a PITA!
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 06:04:11 pm by fourtytwo42 »
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2018, 06:22:22 pm »
As a matter of fact the first Chinese GTI I picked from your link includes the following wording "Protection:Islanding; Short-circuit; Low Voltage; Over Voltage; Over temperature Protection".

Right. And it has that coveted indication of safety, the "CE" rating as well. ::)  And every cheap DMM has a perfectly valid CAT safety rating don't they?  You must realize forum members here are smarter than that, right ?

Quote
Armchair warriors in my book are a PITA!

I've designed and installed several solar PV systems over the past 10 years, including my current 4500 watt home grid tie with battery back up system. 

I've seen your posted "system".   And as long as someone stays off grid and doesn't endanger others (or endanger the reputation of solar PV) - I'm all for backyard engineer DIY solar systems.  I have a small one powering a shed on my property myself.
 

Offline fourtytwo42

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2018, 06:25:02 pm »
I've seen your posted "system".   And as long as someone stays off grid and doesn't endanger others (or endanger the reputation of solar PV) - I'm all for backyard engineer DIY solar systems.  I have a small one powering a shed on my property myself.
So are you accusing me of something ?
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2018, 06:26:07 pm »
Here’s the othering to think about when illegally backfeeding to the grid.  If you do happen to kill someone I’m sure you would be charged with murder.  And I’m sure your power meter would make a good witness against you.

Stop being silly, why don't you contact sunnyboy about your concerns..... and is giving power away illegal? can we have some sources for that statement please.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 06:29:21 pm by Simon »
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2018, 06:58:13 pm »
Here’s the othering to think about when illegally backfeeding to the grid.  If you do happen to kill someone I’m sure you would be charged with murder.  And I’m sure your power meter would make a good witness against you.

Stop being silly, why don't you contact sunnyboy about your concerns..... and is giving power away illegal? can we have some sources for that statement please.

Simon, to be fair, I don't think he is referring to your Sunnyboy inverter which is, as you say, a "proper GTI"  - well designed with proper anti-islanding.

FWIW - As required by the National Electric Code,  it is illegal in most if not all jurisdictions in the US to back feed to the grid with an inverter that does not meet UL 1741 and IEEE 1547 standards (as your SMA inverter does).

The real issue is with the "chinese garbage" as you call it. That was what the OP of this thread was asking about as well.

For example this popular gem

« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 07:15:00 pm by mtdoc »
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2018, 07:13:48 pm »
There are "microinverters" from reputable manufacturers. What's wrong with getting one of those and wiring a plug to it?
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