Author Topic: Wall-plug Solar?  (Read 3941 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gyro

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3507
  • Country: gb
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2018, 05:14:33 am »
I’m surprised no one has mentioned how dangerous this is.  Not for the OP, but for utility workers.  If inverters are tied to mains, they can back feed and kill untility company workers. SS
If you read the thread you will find someone who didnt know what they were talking about already mentioned this, provided the grid tie is properly designed and meets the relevent standards no such danger exists and I for one have never heard of a grid tie that did not meet these requirements. Please dont obscure the point of the thread with fluff.

@fourtytwo42:

I was the person "who didn't know what they were talking about", who raised the issue of safety on page 1. I was the person who challenged and refuted your uninformed statement about UK legality of putting mains on a 13A plug, and then drew your attention to the relevant ENA and IET references (Reply #12), which you "confessed" that you had missed (more likely, had no clue about), only to be faced with your "fluff" about Illegality versus Criminal Offense.

I will not return to the argument, However - In future, choose your words with much greater care! >:(

An apology is in order.


EDIT: According to Reply #61, I was apparently not the person who didn't know what they were talking about!  8)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 05:13:57 am by Gyro »
Chris

"Victor Meldrew, the Crimson Avenger!"
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11990
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2018, 05:15:02 am »
Well to be honest it is up to each government to regulate these devices. The chinese stuff should be banned, ceased as the ports and destroyed.

Anti islanding I beleive is a natural consequence GTI, it is designed to follow the grid voltage, if there is no grid voltage then it drops to zero. Also if you are suddenly trying to power an entire street with 200W guess what your output voltage will be???
https://www.simonselectronics.co.uk/shop New stock now in of EEVblog Brymen 235 and uCurrent Gold, Now selling a selection of Probe Master probes
 

Online mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3487
  • Country: us
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2018, 05:37:15 am »

Anti islanding I beleive is a natural consequence GTI, it is designed to follow the grid voltage, if there is no grid voltage then it drops to zero.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. That is what should happen of course.   And with "grid interactive" inverters or "AC coupled" home back up systems - you need the inverter to continue to work with battery power once the grid is down.

Quote
Also if you are suddenly trying to power an entire street with 200W guess what your output voltage will be???
  Sure.  But that is likely not the scenario when the utility worker is at the pole making repairs and may not be the case with trees take out powerlines.  Hence the term "islanding"
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11990
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2018, 05:45:38 am »

Anti islanding I beleive is a natural consequence GTI, it is designed to follow the grid voltage, if there is no grid voltage then it drops to zero.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. That is what should happen of course.   And with "grid interactive" inverters or "AC coupled" home back up systems - you need the inverter to continue to work with battery power once the grid is down.

So now you not talking about GTI anymore? if the inverter is going to power the house with no mains it needs to disconnect from the mains and then restart in island mode. I have another inverter that has an island mode but even if you flick the switch you have to shut off all power to it and start again. that is NOT GTI, so the problem yoau had with GTI was???

Quote

Quote
Also if you are suddenly trying to power an entire street with 200W guess what your output voltage will be???
  Sure.  But that is likely not the scenario when the utility worker is at the pole making repairs and may not be the case with trees take out powerlines.  Hence the term "islanding"

How? if power is lost to the area due to it being cut usually as a consequence of a shorted power line, how is that different from the scenario where you have a street disconnected for regular maitenance attempting to be powered from a single 200W source? OHM'S LAW ANYONE????????
https://www.simonselectronics.co.uk/shop New stock now in of EEVblog Brymen 235 and uCurrent Gold, Now selling a selection of Probe Master probes
 

Online mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3487
  • Country: us
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #54 on: June 01, 2018, 06:03:54 am »

Anti islanding I beleive is a natural consequence GTI, it is designed to follow the grid voltage, if there is no grid voltage then it drops to zero.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. That is what should happen of course.   And with "grid interactive" inverters or "AC coupled" home back up systems - you need the inverter to continue to work with battery power once the grid is down.

So now you not talking about GTI anymore?
"Grid interactive" and "AC coupled" systems are tied to the grid also. But the main point about it not being simply a matter of inverters not putting out power if the grid is out (unless specifically designed to do so) holds true for the more common grid tie only inverters which is what this thread has mostly been referring to I believe.

Quote
Quote
Also if you are suddenly trying to power an entire street with 200W guess what your output voltage will be???
  Sure.  But that is likely not the scenario when the utility worker is at the pole making repairs and may not be the case with trees take out powerlines.  Hence the term "islanding"

Quote
How? if power is lost to the area due to it being cut usually as a consequence of a shorted power line, how is that different from the scenario where you have a street disconnected for regular maitenance attempting to be powered from a single 200W source? OHM'S LAW ANYONE????????

Think about the utility worker up in the lift truck basket working on the pole in front of my house after a storm to restore power to the street.  Don't you think a common scenario is that there will at times, be no connection to the rest of the street/grid?

We've had several wind storms in my neighborhood that have taken down power lines at multiple locations. Any particular power line may at any time be still connected to only one, or a few homes.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 06:08:01 am by mtdoc »
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11990
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #55 on: June 01, 2018, 06:33:59 am »
Well ultimately a properly designed GTI will not output if there is no mains. A GTI worth it's salt and commercially sold should be certified. The chinese stuff is not very efficient and has no third party oversight and should not be allowed into the country. Last time i asked a utility company about a GTI they just wanted to know that it was CE marked....
https://www.simonselectronics.co.uk/shop New stock now in of EEVblog Brymen 235 and uCurrent Gold, Now selling a selection of Probe Master probes
 

Offline f4eru

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 419
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2018, 07:04:37 am »
Quote
Well ultimately a properly designed GTI will not output if there is no mains.
Yep.
But it's still against regulation, against service rules from your electricity provider, against all relevant norms, and against the installation manual to put that on a male plug.
Illegal. For a reason.
Point.
Connect it correctly. Don't play with people's life just to save a few euros for correct installation.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 07:11:02 am by f4eru »
 

Offline DougSpindler

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 589
  • Country: us
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2018, 02:58:43 pm »
There are "microinverters" from reputable manufacturers. What's wrong with getting one of those and wiring a plug to it?
If you want to wire a plug to one go right ahead, just as long as your aren’t connected to the grid.  As has been mentioned in previous posts if you are backfeeding into the grid could be endangering the lives of utility workers, small children and the community where you live.

Just think how you would feel or how people in your community would feel if you were backfeeding to the grid and there was a down power line and your system electrcuited to death a small child.

And please don’t say something like this might not happen.  Auto accidents and storms where I live have all resulted in downpower lines.  When playing with HV electricty isn’t it better to be safe?   







 

Offline NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4435
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2018, 04:31:46 pm »
Those microinverters from reputable companies are designed to be safe to connect to the grid. Not the Ebay specials that are built for the lowest price and questionable in just about every way, but a proper unit designed to meet safety requirements.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11990
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #59 on: June 01, 2018, 04:36:28 pm »
There are "microinverters" from reputable manufacturers. What's wrong with getting one of those and wiring a plug to it?
If you want to wire a plug to one go right ahead, just as long as your aren’t connected to the grid.  As has been mentioned in previous posts if you are backfeeding into the grid could be endangering the lives of utility workers, small children and the community where you live.

Just think how you would feel or how people in your community would feel if you were backfeeding to the grid and there was a down power line and your system electrcuited to death a small child.

And please don’t say something like this might not happen.  Auto accidents and storms where I live have all resulted in downpower lines.  When playing with HV electricty isn’t it better to be safe?   


So are you trolling? it "backfeeding" as you call it is how every GTI works including every "official" installation of a GTI, do you accept that or not? or are you just trolling??

1) You can come up with evidence
2) You can just leave if you have no further information to add
3) Do I actually need to consider action for your trolling?

This discussion has become pointless because no one is offering evidence to their statements that they keep reeling out like a broken record. Earlier you said it is illegal, show me the law or go away!
https://www.simonselectronics.co.uk/shop New stock now in of EEVblog Brymen 235 and uCurrent Gold, Now selling a selection of Probe Master probes
 
The following users thanked this post: NiHaoMike

Offline Gyro

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3507
  • Country: gb
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2018, 06:00:36 pm »
Simon, if you want actual evidence then please refer to BS7671 IET Wiring Regs, 17th Edition (551.7.2 (ii)), which I linked way back on page 1.

https://www.scribd.com/presentation/259597021/17th-edition-overview-ppt

I agree, most of what followed is unsupported opinion.

For ENA G83 rules on grid tied inverters <3.68kW, the power rating likely covering all wall plug inverters (13A plug fuse), the link is below (again).  I will leave you to judge whether the Chinese inverters commonly on sale meet the G83 rules. Note that this is secondary to the IET regs above in any case...

http://www.energynetworks.org/electricity/engineering/distributed-generation/distributed-generation.html


EDIT: I will leave it to others to locate and post the relevant wiring regs reference for the US (OP's location).
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 06:10:40 pm by Gyro »
Chris

"Victor Meldrew, the Crimson Avenger!"
 

Offline fourtytwo42

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 675
  • Country: gb
  • Interested in all things green/ECO
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2018, 09:19:59 pm »
What a shame this forum has descended into chaos! Anybody reading this and wanting to learn anything would probably conclude this forum is to be avoided. The person who thinks they deserve an apology is not the person I was thinking of (as I don't recall them making unsubstantiated claims) and I cannot imagine why they think they deserve one.

Adios
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11990
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2018, 10:24:44 pm »
Simon, if you want actual evidence then please refer to BS7671 IET Wiring Regs, 17th Edition (551.7.2 (ii)), which I linked way back on page 1.

https://www.scribd.com/presentation/259597021/17th-edition-overview-ppt

I agree, most of what followed is unsupported opinion.

For ENA G83 rules on grid tied inverters <3.68kW, the power rating likely covering all wall plug inverters (13A plug fuse), the link is below (again).  I will leave you to judge whether the Chinese inverters commonly on sale meet the G83 rules. Note that this is secondary to the IET regs above in any case...

http://www.energynetworks.org/electricity/engineering/distributed-generation/distributed-generation.html


EDIT: I will leave it to others to locate and post the relevant wiring regs reference for the US (OP's location).

A statement was made that it is ilegal to back feed into the grid which is exactly what any GTI system does, so if there is a law in this regard sure. As I have ALREADY said the chinese stuff that does not meet the standards should be destroyed on docking but UK authorities are at best a pushover and basically absent  so you can sell any crap to the UK. If it's illegal it should not get through customs, what else do we pay a tenner a go for?
https://www.simonselectronics.co.uk/shop New stock now in of EEVblog Brymen 235 and uCurrent Gold, Now selling a selection of Probe Master probes
 

Offline DougSpindler

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 589
  • Country: us
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #63 on: June 02, 2018, 02:11:44 am »
This forum is for leaning and educating.  In the United States as is the case in other countries it is illegal for one to attach a solar system tot he grid and back feed unless the equipment has been permitted and inspected.  The reaso is safety.  Illegal back feeding is what we have been talking about with unapproved, uninspected equipment. 

You had better believe if someone is illegally backfeeding electricty to the grid and someone is electrocuted to death, especially a child that the DA will charge the back feeder with murder. No licensed electrician would ever endanger the lives of others....  But someone who doen’t know what they are buying or doing just might.

I hope others who read theirs in an attempt tp learn realize just how dangerous illegal backfeeding can be.  There have been many a Darwin Awards awarded for people “playing” with electricity.
 

Offline f4eru

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 419
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2018, 02:33:33 am »
One problem that doug describes is taking an unsynchronized inverter, and feeding it through a socket into the house's network, which is a big no-no
(extremely dangerous & illegal)
This one seems to be a common bad habit for some people in the US.

The other problem is taking a GTI, and connecting it through the same male plug to the grid.
Also dangerous  & illegal
This one seems to be a bad habit for some people in the EU according to some in this forum.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 02:37:59 am by f4eru »
 

Offline Gyro

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3507
  • Country: gb
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #65 on: June 02, 2018, 02:39:54 am »
What a shame this forum has descended into chaos! Anybody reading this and wanting to learn anything would probably conclude this forum is to be avoided. The person who thinks they deserve an apology is not the person I was thinking of (as I don't recall them making unsubstantiated claims) and I cannot imagine why they think they deserve one.

Adios

In that case, I may have been premature in assuming that you were referring to me. My apologies.  :-[
Chris

"Victor Meldrew, the Crimson Avenger!"
 

Offline NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4435
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #66 on: June 02, 2018, 03:55:39 am »
The other problem is taking a GTI, and connecting it through the same male plug to the grid.
Also dangerous  & illegal
This one seems to be a bad habit for some people in the EU according to some in this forum.
Is the concern that the inverter may put a dangerous voltage on the exposed pins when unplugged from the mains? A case that all grid tie inverters better than the questionable Ebay specials are specifically designed to avoid? I'm not sure if any reputable grid tie inverters check for continuity between neutral and ground but I don't see much reason to not do that as one of the basic safety checks.

It's worth noting that in the US, mains plugs are not touch safe when partially inserted. I'm surprised that in over a century of use, no addition has been made to solve that flaw.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline f4eru

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 419
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #67 on: June 02, 2018, 04:09:39 am »
Quote
Is the concern that the inverter may put a dangerous voltage on the exposed pins when unplugged from the mains?
That's one concern. the check of the grid presence may not be guaranteed, even if it should be, or the detection time may be too long, so if you touch the prongs too early before disconnection, etcetcetc...

The other problem is that it is not designed to run like this. There are fundamental normative and safety differences , protection schemes, for an equipment which has a wall plug than an equipment connected permanently by an electrician. The GTIs are not designed and not approved to be connected on a male socket.
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11990
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #68 on: June 02, 2018, 04:49:57 am »
One problem that doug describes is taking an unsynchronized inverter, and feeding it through a socket into the house's network, which is a big no-no
(extremely dangerous & illegal)
This one seems to be a common bad habit for some people in the US.

What have you been drinking? how on earth can anyone contemplate putting an inverter into the mains that is "not synchronised" in otherwise NOT a GTI. The only person that would be harmed would be the idiot plugging it in to a live grid as it would blow up possibly pirotechnically. Your statement demonstrates an amount of ignorance or intention to keep this discussion below the intelligent line.

Quote
The other problem is taking a GTI, and connecting it through the same male plug to the grid.
Also dangerous  & illegal
This one seems to be a bad habit for some people in the EU according to some in this forum.

Yes using a male plug is technically incorrect, I had an electrician doing work in my house and he congratulated me on my ingunuity, he did not give me any "advice". Theoretically the inverter goes dead the moment it is unpluged as per the very nature of a GTI and as regulations dictate that I'm sure the SB1700 is made to, no one else lives here. I also have it connected through an RCD so there is no real chance of anyone being harmed. I am still waiting for references to the specific law. I think the reason most systems are inspected goes back to when panels were expensive bu the FIT was 4x the going rate, some smart arse could declare to have a solar system and just hook up a petrol/deisel generator
https://www.simonselectronics.co.uk/shop New stock now in of EEVblog Brymen 235 and uCurrent Gold, Now selling a selection of Probe Master probes
 
The following users thanked this post: NiHaoMike

Offline f4eru

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 419
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #69 on: June 02, 2018, 09:31:24 am »
Quote
What have you been drinking?
One glass of wine, thank you very much.
Quote
how on earth can anyone contemplate putting an inverter into the mains that is "not synchronised" in otherwise NOT a GTI....  plugging it in to a live gri
I never said the grid is live.
They feed their house though a socket. Total morons.
Google "suicide cord", you'll find all the details.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 09:34:01 am by f4eru »
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11990
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #70 on: June 02, 2018, 05:30:16 pm »
Oh so you have found out about one particular idiot that did something stupid and now even legit technology should be banned? No you show me your evidence. This thread is full of hot air from people who don,t seem to get which particular subject is being discussed.
https://www.simonselectronics.co.uk/shop New stock now in of EEVblog Brymen 235 and uCurrent Gold, Now selling a selection of Probe Master probes
 

Offline f4eru

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 419
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2018, 05:51:25 pm »
Quote
legit technology should be banned
I never said anything remote.
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11990
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Wall-plug Solar?
« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2018, 06:36:26 pm »
Quote
legit technology should be banned
I never said anything remote.

Well some people here are advocating that the use of perfectly legit stuff (made and sold by reputable companies to standards) is illegal, at every reply we get a new crazy assertion with nothing to back it up!

I think it is time to lock this thread. I have repeatedly asked for proof of outlandish claims and all we get is more outlandish claims. If similar happens in future threads banning will be considered, we seem to be spiralling into forum wide trolling of just about anything!
https://www.simonselectronics.co.uk/shop New stock now in of EEVblog Brymen 235 and uCurrent Gold, Now selling a selection of Probe Master probes
 
The following users thanked this post: NiHaoMike


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf