Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 63654 times)

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Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1575 on: August 04, 2018, 05:32:48 pm »
EV's with 400 mile range which is generally accepted as needed for a breakthrough in consumer acceptance.
Nope.
That assumption is wrong.
No it is not and it is very easy to understand. Ask yourself why an ICE based car has a fuel tank which takes it around 800km? Why would that be? Is that some kind of arbitrary number? No, it is not. It is what the customers find acceptable. Plain and simple and there is no argueing around it.

Mr. Market would like a word with you, if you don't mind. Teslas with 300 mile range are flying off the shelves all around the globe.
Tesla sales are zero compared to the total number of cars sold world wide so statistically irrelevant.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1576 on: August 04, 2018, 05:59:41 pm »
Mr. Market would like a word with you, if you don't mind. Teslas with 300 mile range are flying off the shelves all around the globe.
You mean the Tesla S with the 100kWH option, that is indeed a nice range for an EV which only is feasible when driving below 100km/h without airco or heating but still very nice car.
One problem the €140000 pricetage is almost five times as high as a meanstream EV.
If you had read the topic it is not only range but also the price which is a factor for a breakthrough.
 

Online Nauris

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1577 on: August 05, 2018, 02:14:27 am »
The combination of short daily trips and occasional long distance driving is more or less exactly what plug in hybrids are designed for.

I agree with that.  I just bought my son a used volt.  His drive to work is short so it works great for now.  He lives at home now and can charge it at night.  But he plans to move into an apartment so I'm not sure he will be able to charge the car.
But then you can put solar panel on the roof of the car! If there are sunny days and he has short commute, it could even provide most of the power or at least it gives nice boost to battery and saves on gasoline. It would be easy to attach few panels to the roof rails and if you have time there are also these bare solar cell wafers available on Ebay and elsewhere, you could go and laminate whole engine bay door and back door with them for extra power.
 

Offline ahbushnell

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1578 on: August 05, 2018, 04:43:20 am »
The combination of short daily trips and occasional long distance driving is more or less exactly what plug in hybrids are designed for.

I agree with that.  I just bought my son a used volt.  His drive to work is short so it works great for now.  He lives at home now and can charge it at night.  But he plans to move into an apartment so I'm not sure he will be able to charge the car.

But then you can put solar panel on the roof of the car! If there are sunny days and he has short commute, it could even provide most of the power or at least it gives nice boost to battery and saves on gasoline. It would be easy to attach few panels to the roof rails and if you have time there are also these bare solar cell wafers available on Ebay and elsewhere, you could go and laminate whole engine bay door and back door with them for extra power.

That won't fly.  The sun puts out on a sunny day 1 kW/m^2.  If the panel is 15% efficient that's 150 watt/m^2.  Let's say you could get 2 m^2 on a car.  That's 600 watts.  Not all of that will go in the battery.  Note the panel angle won't be optimum assuming you can stay out from under a tree our clouds.  So if your lucky you could get 7 hours per day.  1.2 kW-hr.  You won't go far on that and if the panels are set up for good solar collection they probably won't be very aerodynamic. 
 
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Online DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1579 on: August 05, 2018, 06:52:00 am »
Seems like most of the people wo are promoting solar and EVs don’t understand the most basic laws of physics.  Many of the things they are proposing violate the laws of physics.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1580 on: August 05, 2018, 06:56:34 am »
Seems like most of the people wo are promoting solar and EVs don’t understand the most basic laws of physics.

Gee, generalize much... :palm:
 
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1581 on: August 05, 2018, 07:00:54 am »
The combination of short daily trips and occasional long distance driving is more or less exactly what plug in hybrids are designed for.

I agree with that.  I just bought my son a used volt.  His drive to work is short so it works great for now.  He lives at home now and can charge it at night.  But he plans to move into an apartment so I'm not sure he will be able to charge the car.

But then you can put solar panel on the roof of the car! If there are sunny days and he has short commute, it could even provide most of the power or at least it gives nice boost to battery and saves on gasoline. It would be easy to attach few panels to the roof rails and if you have time there are also these bare solar cell wafers available on Ebay and elsewhere, you could go and laminate whole engine bay door and back door with them for extra power.

That won't fly.  The sun puts out on a sunny day 1 kW/m^2.  If the panel is 15% efficient that's 150 watt/m^2.  Let's say you could get 2 m^2 on a car.  That's 600 watts.  Not all of that will go in the battery.  Note the panel angle won't be optimum assuming you can stay out from under a tree our clouds.  So if your lucky you could get 7 hours per day.  1.2 kW-hr.  You won't go far on that and if the panels are set up for good solar collection they probably won't be very aerodynamic.

Spot on.  Solar panels mounted on a car are a non starter - only half a step more practical than solar roadways. ::)

On the other hand, a properly designed home solar PV system can, in many cases, provide a
large chunk (or all) of an EVs power needs.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1582 on: August 05, 2018, 08:48:32 am »
On the other hand, a properly designed home solar PV system can, in many cases, provide a
large chunk (or all) of an EVs power needs.
Yes but you still need a home battery for intermediate storage of substantial size and price,
Or leave the car charging during the daytime.
Handy for those who work at night but a bit impractical for most working people  ;)
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1583 on: August 05, 2018, 09:56:26 am »
On the other hand, a properly designed home solar PV system can, in many cases, provide a
large chunk (or all) of an EVs power needs.
Yes but you still need a home battery for intermediate storage of substantial size and price,
Or leave the car charging during the daytime.

Or just do what most people do - use the grid as the “battery”.
 

Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1584 on: August 05, 2018, 09:58:40 am »
On the other hand, a properly designed home solar PV system can, in many cases, provide a
large chunk (or all) of an EVs power needs.
Yes but you still need a home battery for intermediate storage of substantial size and price,
Or leave the car charging during the daytime.

Or just do what most people do - use the grid as the “battery”.
That works great for some people, and badly for others. It depends on your local energy export and import charges.
 

Online DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1585 on: August 05, 2018, 01:27:24 pm »
In Nevada there is no export agreement any more.  That is why all of the big solar companies are no longer there.  In California it’s a different story.  One can use the grid for storage and sell high $0.45 and buy back low, $0.12.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1586 on: August 05, 2018, 07:29:43 pm »
Currently in our country you get the raw kWh price back (ex taxes which are 70% or so) when you take back you pay the taxes.
This is going to change to 0 payback because the energy companies can not deal with the abundance of energy on sunny days.
The reason is apparently that they have fixed contracts with other suppliers and it takes a relative long time to reduce the intake rrom those companies so they have huge problems controlling the grid.
They really need large batterry buffers fast, still it is kind of ironic that green energy that is not constant produces so many problems.
 

Offline SparkyFX

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1587 on: August 05, 2018, 09:59:54 pm »
They really need large batterry buffers fast, still it is kind of ironic that green energy that is not constant produces so many problems.
As long as the production and the load can not be controlled it makes a lot of sense for it to be buffered - given the primary source of energy is free.
There are solutions to actually store high amounts of energy apart from batteries... like pumping water uphill into artificial reservoirs (requires a suitable topology).

Another way around the problem would be to synchronize loads (that allow it, maybe already containing buffers) with production. The prices however might be less predictable, such models therefore frowned upon by both utility and customer.
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1588 on: August 06, 2018, 12:16:38 am »
Another way around the problem would be to synchronize loads (that allow it, maybe already containing buffers) with production. The prices however might be less predictable, such models therefore frowned upon by both utility and customer.
A system focused around turning *on* loads would be more accepted than one that turns off loads, if the load is of the type where more use at a given time reduces use at another time. Two examples that work really well for that are dedicated freezers and water heaters.
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Online DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1589 on: August 06, 2018, 12:30:13 pm »
Currently in our country you get the raw kWh price back (ex taxes which are 70% or so) when you take back you pay the taxes.
This is going to change to 0 payback because the energy companies can not deal with the abundance of energy on sunny days.
The reason is apparently that they have fixed contracts with other suppliers and it takes a relative long time to reduce the intake rrom those companies so they have huge problems controlling the grid.
They really need large batterry buffers fast, still it is kind of ironic that green energy that is not constant produces so many problems.

Batteries, don’t think so.  Have you looked at or done the math?   All of the batteries in the world won’t provide more than 15 minutes of electricity.   

Try again.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1590 on: August 06, 2018, 03:37:28 pm »
Currently in our country you get the raw kWh price back (ex taxes which are 70% or so) when you take back you pay the taxes.
This is going to change to 0 payback because the energy companies can not deal with the abundance of energy on sunny days.
The reason is apparently that they have fixed contracts with other suppliers and it takes a relative long time to reduce the intake rrom those companies so they have huge problems controlling the grid.
They really need large batterry buffers fast, still it is kind of ironic that green energy that is not constant produces so many problems.

Batteries, don’t think so.  Have you looked at or done the math?   All of the batteries in the world won’t provide more than 15 minutes of electricity.   

Try again.

Yawn. Another fact-free assertion from Fact-Free Doug. 

On an engineering oriented forum, it’s best to actually do the math before making such statements. I’m not gonna do your homework for you but the Netherlands electricity usage is easily available online, as is the size of the larger battery banks already installed around the globe.
 

Online DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1591 on: August 06, 2018, 03:47:01 pm »
Currently in our country you get the raw kWh price back (ex taxes which are 70% or so) when you take back you pay the taxes.
This is going to change to 0 payback because the energy companies can not deal with the abundance of energy on sunny days.
The reason is apparently that they have fixed contracts with other suppliers and it takes a relative long time to reduce the intake rrom those companies so they have huge problems controlling the grid.
They really need large batterry buffers fast, still it is kind of ironic that green energy that is not constant produces so many problems.

Batteries, don’t think so.  Have you looked at or done the math?   All of the batteries in the world won’t provide more than 15 minutes of electricity.   

Try again.

Yawn. Another fact-free assertion from Fact-Free Doug. 

On an engineering oriented forum, it’s best to actually do the math before making such statements. I’m not gonna do your homework for you but the Netherlands electricity usage is easily available online, as is the size of the larger battery banks already installed around the globe.

Netherlands.....   Isn’t that a tiny spec if compared to the rest of the world?  Most American’s would not be able to find it on a map.  If all the batteries in your country were to supply your country with electricity you would get what 5 minutes of electricity?

Dude be realistic and do the math before you makes such silly claims.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1592 on: August 06, 2018, 04:19:42 pm »
Yep, FFD is at it again.

You have repeatedly in this thread and multiple other threads, stated something as a fact without any reference or source and which are demonstrably false. When called out and shown evidence of the mistruth of your statement, you either ignore the facts and keep repeating the same statement or move onto another subject again stating things as factual (not opinion) that are not accurate and the pattern repeats over and over in multiple threads.

If you are not purposely trolling then please either back up your statements with reputable sources or make it clear that you are just offering a guess or opinion.  Once someone shows a source refuting your statement, don't just keep repeating the same statement unless you can offer an alternative reputable source backing up your statement

 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1593 on: August 06, 2018, 04:59:01 pm »
Batteries, don’t think so.  Have you looked at or done the math?   All of the batteries in the world won’t provide more than 15 minutes of electricity.   

Netherlands.....   Isn’t that a tiny spec if compared to the rest of the world?  Most American’s would not be able to find it on a map.  If all the batteries in your country were to supply your country with electricity you would get what 5 minutes of electricity?

Dude be realistic and do the math before you makes such silly claims.
That is why it is called a buffer duh. Look at it as the elco bank in your power amplifier, the elco's don't need to power the entire amplifier they have to buffer the peak power and smooth the rimples in the main supply. Now see all the private owned PV installations as rimple and you get the point ;)
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1594 on: August 06, 2018, 05:09:22 pm »
Batteries, don’t think so.  Have you looked at or done the math?   All of the batteries in the world won’t provide more than 15 minutes of electricity.   

Netherlands.....   Isn’t that a tiny spec if compared to the rest of the world?  Most American’s would not be able to find it on a map.  If all the batteries in your country were to supply your country with electricity you would get what 5 minutes of electricity?

Dude be realistic and do the math before you makes such silly claims.
That is why it is called a buffer duh. Look at it as the elco bank in your power amplifier, the elco's don't need to power the entire amplifier they have to buffer the peak power and smooth the rimples in the main supply. Now see all the private owned PV installations as rimple and you get the point ;)

Also, such buffering is only necessary for relatively small geographic areas. Over larger areas/countries, variations in solar insolation or wind power as well as changes in load patterns ensure that these kind of buffering needs are both geographically and temporally localized. But don’t expect FFD to get any of this.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1595 on: August 06, 2018, 06:02:31 pm »
Batteries, don’t think so.  Have you looked at or done the math?   All of the batteries in the world won’t provide more than 15 minutes of electricity.   

Netherlands.....   Isn’t that a tiny spec if compared to the rest of the world?  Most American’s would not be able to find it on a map.  If all the batteries in your country were to supply your country with electricity you would get what 5 minutes of electricity?

Dude be realistic and do the math before you makes such silly claims.
That is why it is called a buffer duh. Look at it as the elco bank in your power amplifier, the elco's don't need to power the entire amplifier they have to buffer the peak power and smooth the rimples in the main supply. Now see all the private owned PV installations as rimple and you get the point ;)

Also, such buffering is only necessary for relatively small geographic areas. Over larger areas/countries, variations in solar insolation or wind power as well as changes in load patterns ensure that these kind of buffering needs are both geographically and temporally localized. But don’t expect FFD to get any of this.
Unfortunately that means that the distribution network needs to be much beefier than it is now. That also requires a hefty investment. The way I see it is that solar and wind are nice supplements but they can never become the primary energy source. When you add everything up then nuclear will be cheaper.

Edit: I just read a news article  which says the companies which maintain the Dutch grid need 5 billion Euro to upgrade the grid in the next 12 years (and need to increase consumer prices to pay for it). Extrapolate that number to the size of the US.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 06:16:43 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1596 on: August 06, 2018, 06:29:15 pm »
Edit: I just read a news article  which says the companies which maintain the Dutch grid need 5 billion Euro to upgrade the grid in the next 12 years (and need to increase consumer prices to pay for it). Extrapolate that number to the size of the US. 
The US is notorious for not investing in infrastructure.
They first have to spent what is it around 4,5 trillion $ to get everything at normal level,

http://www.businessinsider.fr/us/asce-gives-us-infrastructure-a-d-2017-3

On the other side we have done the same with our army which is desperately sinking to 3rd world country levels and invested way too much in public health IMO, ten times more than 20 years ago, rediculous.
 

Online DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1597 on: August 06, 2018, 11:50:46 pm »
Yep, FFD is at it again.

You have repeatedly in this thread and multiple other threads, stated something as a fact without any reference or source and which are demonstrably false. When called out and shown evidence of the mistruth of your statement, you either ignore the facts and keep repeating the same statement or move onto another subject again stating things as factual (not opinion) that are not accurate and the pattern repeats over and over in multiple threads.

If you are not purposely trolling then please either back up your statements with reputable sources or make it clear that you are just offering a guess or opinion.  Once someone shows a source refuting your statement, don't just keep repeating the same statement unless you can offer an alternative reputable source backing up your statement

I’m trying to understand of the laws of physics do not apply wher you live or if in your country you do not receive a good education in physics.  Where is all of the magical energy you keep talking about going to come from?  Troy watching Dav’s video on batteries and battery technology.  Now take a look at the energy consumption of say your tiny little country,factor in Dave’s value for energy loss when using battery technology and then give a generous approximation for all of the batteries that are in you country.  Be sure to include every battery in a car, laptop computer and torch.

And you think all of this battery power will power your county for how long?  Days weeks?  Dude not sure what kind of math youo’ve been smoking or physics you’ve been drinking but all of the batteries in your country coun not provide enough electricty to your country for even an hour.  We are talking minutes if even that.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1598 on: August 07, 2018, 03:50:47 am »
Yep, FFD is at it again.

You have repeatedly in this thread and multiple other threads, stated something as a fact without any reference or source and which are demonstrably false. When called out and shown evidence of the mistruth of your statement, you either ignore the facts and keep repeating the same statement or move onto another subject again stating things as factual (not opinion) that are not accurate and the pattern repeats over and over in multiple threads.

If you are not purposely trolling then please either back up your statements with reputable sources or make it clear that you are just offering a guess or opinion.  Once someone shows a source refuting your statement, don't just keep repeating the same statement unless you can offer an alternative reputable source backing up your statement

I’m trying to understand of the laws of physics do not apply wher you live .......
:palm:

And the pattern repeats.  Analysis: Troll.
 

Online DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1599 on: August 07, 2018, 03:51:34 am »
And the pattern repeats.  Analysis: Troll.

Intersting how the uneducated who lack critical thinking skills immediatly copout an call people trolls just becuase they don't udnerstand and can not do simple math calculations.

 


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