When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?

[DougSpindler]

The government was actively supporting these companies and helping to fund them.

Is Solar City/Tesla not in the UK? 


Here in the US if one places solar on their home, the tax p[ayers pay 30% of the cost.  Solar City, I guess they are now Tesla charge $1,000 to $1,300 per 300 watt panel installed.  Their sales people are on paid on commission, so the more panels they "think" you need, the more panels the more they will sell you.

From what I understnad our power comany PG&E is the first in the US to offer Time Of Use billing meaning you pay anywehre from $0.10 kWhr to $0.85 kWhr depending on what time you purchase the kWhr.  Coca-Cola tried selling bottles of Coke based on temerature.  On hot days the prices would increase.  That's didn't work for them.

The slimy trick Tesal and the ohter solar panel installers are doing is keeping customers in the dark about solar so they can make more money.  It's discrasefull what these solar comanies are doing to make money which at the same time is giving solar a bad reputation.  Residential customers where I have can be on one of nine rate plans.

When the solar sales folks "sell" solar to folks they compare the worst price folks have to pay for electricty (before solar) and compare ot it the best rate they can get making solar appear to be a much better value than it actually is.

I have a rate plan comparer app.  Is shows me how much I would pay each month for the different rate plans.  For a $200 a month bill, I'm saving $60 per month just be selecting a different rate plan without even installing solar.  The solar rip-off companies then use theis $65 savings and add it to the $5 or $10 people might be saving by installing solar and then show them what a wonderful deal it is to install solar.  What BS.

Not saying sdar is not good.....  But just look at what the solar companies are doing to make a profit to destory the "good" solar is for us.

[NiHaoMike]

The overpricing is the main reason I DIY my solar setup and I suggest others do the same. (The other big reasons are to make it economical to start small and to have a setup I can easily take with me when I move.) I had the vision to do it when I was in college (sadly, batteries and LED bulbs were just too expensive back then - the ripoff $40/month service charge would easily buy a minimalist setup nowadays!) and I made it reality last year. I also got the chance to use my setup to spread the word about DIY solar and show my friends how I use technology to make the world a better place.

[fourtytwo42]

The overpricing is the main reason I DIY my solar setup and I suggest others do the same. (The other big reasons are to make it economical to start small and to have a setup I can easily take with me when I move.) I had the vision to do it when I was in college (sadly, batteries and LED bulbs were just too expensive back then - the ripoff $40/month service charge would easily buy a minimalist setup nowadays!) and I made it reality last year. I also got the chance to use my setup to spread the word about DIY solar and show my friends how I use technology to make the world a better place.

Me too, my DIY solar does all my hot water and a little power for the house, although its grid tied I measure and limit what I export to the minimium to avoid wear and tear on my system as I don't get paid for export (consiquence of DIY). This thread seems to have drifted somewhat from cars 

[gildasd]

The overpricing is the main reason I DIY my solar setup and I suggest others do the same. (The other big reasons are to make it economical to start small and to have a setup I can easily take with me when I move.) I had the vision to do it when I was in college (sadly, batteries and LED bulbs were just too expensive back then - the ripoff $40/month service charge would easily buy a minimalist setup nowadays!) and I made it reality last year. I also got the chance to use my setup to spread the word about DIY solar and show my friends how I use technology to make the world a better place.

Me too, my DIY solar does all my hot water and a little power for the house, although its grid tied I measure and limit what I export to the minimium to avoid wear and tear on my system as I don't get paid for export (consiquence of DIY). This thread seems to have drifted somewhat from cars 

Yup, you are right, let’s push them back in line.

“Morris Minor”

That should do it.

[DougSpindler]

Yup, you are right, let’s push them back in line.

“Morris Minor”

That should do it.

How? 

I’ve talked to former sales solar sales people and Solar City/Tesla is all about hitting sales numbers.  People are calling solar sales the new “used car” industry.

On the consumer side solar has been made so complex all people are saying is how much money will I save per month if I install solar?   If they here $10 per month on. $200 bill they think it’s a great deal feel they are doing something “good”.

And what Solar City is doing to minorities and people of color is disgusting.  They “sell” them on the idea they will be getting all of their electricty for free from solar while sticking them into a PACE HERO high interest government backed loan.  I’ve talked to some solar companies who only do these PACE HERO sales because they can make more money and the people are easier to dupe.  One of the solar companies has a promo video showing an 85 year old women of color talking about the “free” electricty she is receiving by installing solar.  “Free” is not correct.  She is paying a premium for her electricity because they arranged for her to get a PACE HERO loan.

It’s discraseful what the solar industry is doing to poor people.

[Seph.b]

Yup, you are right, let’s push them back in line.

“Morris Minor”

That should do it.

How? 

I’ve talked to former sales solar sales people and Solar City/Tesla is all about hitting sales numbers.  People are calling solar sales the new “used car” industry.

On the consumer side solar has been made so complex all people are saying is how much money will I save per month if I install solar?   If they here $10 per month on. $200 bill they think it’s a great deal feel they are doing something “good”.

And what Solar City is doing to minorities and people of color is disgusting.  They “sell” them on the idea they will be getting all of their electricty for free from solar while sticking them into a PACE HERO high interest government backed loan.  I’ve talked to some solar companies who only do these PACE HERO sales because they can make more money and the people are easier to dupe.  One of the solar companies has a promo video showing an 85 year old women of color talking about the “free” electricty she is receiving by installing solar.  “Free” is not correct.  She is paying a premium for her electricity because they arranged for her to get a PACE HERO loan.

It’s discraseful what the solar industry is doing to poor people.

Or magazine subscription salesmen.  I have seen people at a booth in front of the super market trying to sell solar. 

[DougSpindler]

Sad isn't it.  Who is going to buy a $40,000 solar system from a "guy" standing in front of a supermarket.  I've been told average cost for marketing material is $5,000 per home.  Or out of that $40,000 solar system being installed on someone's home, $5,000 of the $40,000 was spent on marketing.

[Seph.b]

Sad isn't it.  Who is going to buy a $40,000 solar system from a "guy" standing in front of a supermarket.  I've been told average cost for marketing material is $5,000 per home.  Or out of that $40,000 solar system being installed on someone's home, $5,000 of the $40,000 was spent on marketing.

There are always people talking to them, no idea what their conversion rate is though.

Even if you had a $200 a month power bill that went to zero, it would take 17 years to pay them off with no financing charges. I think they are selling an antidote to liberal guilt, not solar. I have gotten door to door solar salesmen too, and my house is surrounded by very large trees. I get like an hour of sun on my roof a day. I'm all for solar, but it is getting ridiculous.

At the same supermarket I see people offering to raise your electric rate to help spur renewable energy in the region.  This is in the Pacific NW, which already has one of the highest renewable energy share of the market in the world. See other users discussions earlier in this thread for details.   

[paulca]

But... knowing the Tories in Britain they will regulate it into building code in such a way that you have little or no option but to pay their (Tory MPs) friends' corporations loads of money to install and maintain it if you want to GTI the over gen, apply for home insurance or to sell your house.

[DougSpindler]

Sad isn't it.  Who is going to buy a $40,000 solar system from a "guy" standing in front of a supermarket.  I've been told average cost for marketing material is $5,000 per home.  Or out of that $40,000 solar system being installed on someone's home, $5,000 of the $40,000 was spent on marketing.

There are always people talking to them, no idea what their conversion rate is though.

Even if you had a $200 a month power bill that went to zero, it would take 17 years to pay them off with no financing charges. I think they are selling an antidote to liberal guilt, not solar. I have gotten door to door solar salesmen too, and my house is surrounded by very large trees. I get like an hour of sun on my roof a day. I'm all for solar, but it is getting ridiculous.

At the same supermarket I see people offering to raise your electric rate to help spur renewable energy in the region.  This is in the Pacific NW, which already has one of the highest renewable energy share of the market in the world. See other users discussions earlier in this thread for details.

There was a time when GE was selling refrigators with ice makers to Eskimos in your part of the country.

[fourtytwo42]

But... knowing the Tories in Britain they will regulate it into building code in such a way that you have little or no option but to pay their (Tory MPs) friends' corporations loads of money to install and maintain it if you want to GTI the over gen, apply for home insurance or to sell your house.

Politics and engineering dont mix! We can all try to backstab whatever party we don't like on here but it serves no usefull purpose

[DougSpindler]

But... knowing the Tories in Britain they will regulate it into building code in such a way that you have little or no option but to pay their (Tory MPs) friends' corporations loads of money to install and maintain it if you want to GTI the over gen, apply for home insurance or to sell your house.

Politics and engineering dont mix! We can all try to backstab whatever party we don't like on here but it serves no usefull purpose

No useful purpose?  Sure it does....  When one complains they feel better after they complain.   


Isn't FaceBook a billion dollar company because people are complaining?

[Marco]

PACE HERO

Why the fuck is government getting into providing loans with payment being done through property taxes? How does that make any sense at all other than obfuscation of costs and scamming people?

PS. the ONLY way I could ever see this making sense is if you want to do some renovation which can be funded by this, but you're planning to walk away from your mortgage in a couple of years. In literally every other situation it can not possibly make any sense whatsoever. What the hell was Obama thinking supporting this outright evil shit?

[boffin]

Back to the original topic:

My car getting a charge using our inexpensive and 90% Hydro produced electricity.. It was just under 1/2 'tank', and ended up taking 18kWh @ C$0.0858/kWh, or C$1.54

[DougSpindler]

PACE HERO

Why the fuck is government getting into providing loans with payment being done through property taxes? How does that make any sense at all other than obfuscation of costs and scamming people?

PS. the ONLY way I could ever see this making sense is if you want to do some renovation which can be funded by this, but you're planning to walk away from your mortgage in a couple of years. In literally every other situation it can not possibly make any sense whatsoever. What the hell was Obama thinking supporting this outright evil shit?

There's a very simple answer.  You've got a guy who needs money to build rockets and electric cars.  As he flies over the US he's lookng down and seeing rooftops which can be turned into dollars if only he could convince everyone to put solar panels on every rooftop.  How do you do that?  Hire green lobbiests and convince the President to have the governement pay 30%.

But what about all of those poor people who got screwed and went bankrupt with those ridiciouls real estate loans.  Elon knows.....  Have the goverment loan all of these poor uninfomred people money and hide the loan in their proerpty taxes.  This way Elon can look like a hero to the poor.  He's giving them free electrity with solar, right?  What they are hiding is how mich these peopels property taxes increased.

[ez24]

Around here those new electric scooters are taking over the world.

Lasts Sunday  I drove down a busy business street and there were at least 3 groups ( 5 to 8 ) of teenagers riding the rental scooters.

It was on the news recently that soon Volvo will stop making gas cars.

California dictators want to outlaw gas cars.

Today there was a commercial on a luxury car (forgot name) and they said their electric (hybrid?) was comparably priced with their other models.


So electric cars will become mainstream faster than we think.

[DougSpindler]

Around here those new electric scooters are taking over the world.

Lasts Sunday  I drove down a busy business street and there were at least 3 groups ( 5 to 8 ) of teenagers riding the rental scooters.

It was on the news recently that soon Volvo will stop making gas cars.

California dictators want to outlaw gas cars.

Today there was a commercial on a luxury car (forgot name) and they said their electric (hybrid?) was comparably priced with their other models.


So electric cars will become mainstream faster than we think.

Keep saying it over and over and it will come true, right?  Or look at the figures.  First what's your defination of mainstream?  If it is less than 1% then we are there.  Of the 17.5 million cars on the road just over half a million are electric.

While you saw an add for one new electric car model, remember VW just pulled the plug on one of their electtic cars.
No net gain here.

Yes Volvo is going for broke.  Could it be they are going broke and this is somehting they are trying to do save face?  If no one buys their electric cars then they can say see, no one want's electric cars.  But if people start buying them other companies might take notice.  Quesiton is will they be a Saab?  Or the next VW in the 60s with their bug?


Stay tueend the furture is always almost here.

[Marco]

Hire green lobbiests and convince the President to have the governement pay 30%.

The government isn't paying 30%, the government is helping to hide the trust cost of the loan and is offering its services to scammers to break your legs if you don't pay up. If I just thought it was every day corruption I wouldn't have called it evil.

[DougSpindler]

Hire green lobbiests and convince the President to have the governement pay 30%.

The government isn't paying 30%, the government is helping to hide the trust cost of the loan and is offering its services to scammers to break your legs if you don't pay up. If I just thought it was every day corruption I wouldn't have called it evil.

Okay on a technicality you are correct.  The government’s money is really the money f the people.  So when government is giving a 30% tax credit it’s really the people' money.   So when the elected officials who give the 30% tax credit to the person of company like Solar City (in the case of a loan or a PACE HERO loans) it is the rich (who can pay for the solar panels) and companies like Solar City who get the thousands of dollars in tax credits.
In the US electric car buyers also get $10,000 in tax credits and cash for buying an electric car.  If $10,000 is not an insensitive to purchase an electric car, how much more money does the public need?

[mtdoc]

In the US electric car buyers also get $10,000 in tax credits and cash for buying an electric car.

No. The tax credit is max $7500 (less if battery is below the minimum size). And no, they do not get any “ cash”.

[ez24]

The tax credit is max $7500 (less if battery is below the minimum size). And no, they do not get any “ cash”.

If you are in a 15% fed tax bracket (lowest), what is the savings in your pocket?   I think it is 7500 x .15 = $1,125    Still not enough to help the masses, just enough to help the power brokers.   So if I bought one, I would pay $1,125 less in taxes and get audited on why someone in my 15% tax bracket could afford a EC.   

A 7500 tax credit is not $7500 !

This is NOT a reason to hit the "mainstream".  The matching of price of gas and electric in cars that the masses can buy will then it become mainstream  (not in my lifetime).  I will pay attention next time to the luxury car ad that said it matches their gas cars.  Now I would like to know the prices.





 

[DougSpindler]

The tax credit is max $7500 (less if battery is below the minimum size). And no, they do not get any “ cash”.

If you are in a 15% fed tax bracket (lowest), what is the savings in your pocket?   I think it is 7500 x .15 = $1,125    Still not enough to help the masses, just enough to help the power brokers.   So if I bought one, I would pay $1,125 less in taxes and get audited on why someone in my 15% tax bracket could afford a EC.   

A 7500 tax credit is not $7500 !

This is NOT a reason to hit the "mainstream".  The matching of price of gas and electric in cars that the masses can buy will then it become mainstream  (not in my lifetime).  I will pay attention next time to the luxury car ad that said it matches their gas cars.  Now I would like to know the prices.

If you are in a low tax bracket you can still take advantage of the 30% tax credit.  Solar City will lease the PV system and since they are the ones who have now purchased the system they receive the 30% tax credit.  They will then pass along the tax credit in reduced lease payments.  But then with a lease payments tend to be a considerably higher.  Solar City tells everyone they will get the 30% tax credit even with a lease.  What they don't tell you is the leasing payments are at a premium.

With Solar City and others the 7500 tax credit is close to $7500 evern for thouse who have no income.

[ahbushnell]

The tax credit is max $7500 (less if battery is below the minimum size). And no, they do not get any “ cash”.

If you are in a 15% fed tax bracket (lowest), what is the savings in your pocket?   I think it is 7500 x .15 = $1,125    Still not enough to help the masses, just enough to help the power brokers.   So if I bought one, I would pay $1,125 less in taxes and get audited on why someone in my 15% tax bracket could afford a EC.   

A 7500 tax credit is not $7500 !

This is NOT a reason to hit the "mainstream".  The matching of price of gas and electric in cars that the masses can buy will then it become mainstream  (not in my lifetime).  I will pay attention next time to the luxury car ad that said it matches their gas cars.  Now I would like to know the prices.

A Tax credit means if you owe the government 10,000 in taxes and you get a credit for $7500 then you will owe the government $2500. 

[DougSpindler]

The tax credit is max $7500 (less if battery is below the minimum size). And no, they do not get any “ cash”.

If you are in a 15% fed tax bracket (lowest), what is the savings in your pocket?   I think it is 7500 x .15 = $1,125    Still not enough to help the masses, just enough to help the power brokers.   So if I bought one, I would pay $1,125 less in taxes and get audited on why someone in my 15% tax bracket could afford a EC.   

A 7500 tax credit is not $7500 !

This is NOT a reason to hit the "mainstream".  The matching of price of gas and electric in cars that the masses can buy will then it become mainstream  (not in my lifetime).  I will pay attention next time to the luxury car ad that said it matches their gas cars.  Now I would like to know the prices.

A Tax credit means if you owe the government 10,000 in taxes and you get a credit for $7500 then you will owe the government $2500.

One only gets the tax crdit if they puchaased a solar system.  If one leases it, there is no tax credit.  If Solar City leases a solar PV system to you, then they not you get the tax credit.  It is Solar City who purcahsed the solar system.

Bue there's no law that prevents Solar City from passing along that "tax credit" to you in the form of a credit on your lease payment.  So even soneone who owes no taxes can receive the tax credit if they lease.  Now in reality Solar City jacks-up the lease payments so it's a terrible deal for the homeowner.

[Fungus]

If you are in a 15% fed tax bracket (lowest), what is the savings in your pocket?   I think it is 7500 x .15 = $1,125    Still not enough to help the masses, just enough to help the power brokers.   

That doesn't matter. The point is that electric car makers get to sell some cars and survive to the next generation.

Tesla started by selling overpriced toy cars to very rich people. No ordinary person would ever have owned a roadster.

Here we are a few years later and Tesla is now making $35000 family cars. Still not cheap enough, but we're getting there. Slowly.