When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?

[JohnnyMalaria]

What kind of metric is Price per kWh

[Fungus]

What kind of metric is Price per kWh

kWh tells you something about the car, no?

(size of the battery)

[Kjelt]

That table mixes hybrids with EV's, if you talk EV and range you should limit to pure EV cars otherwise there is not much to compare or talk about, everybody knows that hybrids and ICE's have a much longer range.

[richard.cs]

That table mixes hybrids with EV's, if you talk EV and range you should limit to pure EV cars otherwise there is not much to compare or talk about, everybody knows that hybrids and ICE's have a much longer range.

There is a column for EV range to the left of the total range.

[f4eru]

Why does everyone say "Tesla Tesla Tesla".

Because Tesla is providing the long range system where you can fast charge during long trips, making it as practical as an ICE. Others simply don't.

For every Tesla there's a dozen of Nissan Leafs, Chevy Bolt, VW eGolf and BMW i3s on the road here.

Nope.
Tesla already overtook GM and Nissan combined in EV sales, yearly and monthly.
In cumulative "on the road" vehicles in U.S., Tesla already surpassed Nissan, and will soon also overtake GM :

Others like BMW, VW are really anectdotal, they sell in homeopathic quantities.

[mtdoc]

That table mixes hybrids with EV's

PHEVs are EVs. They are serial hybrids which have the ability to run 100% electric.

I thimk it’s very appropriate to have a table that includes both since many EV buyers will be considering  both types of EV.  The table delineates EV versus total range after all...

[f4eru]

PHEVs are crap that OEMs push out to paint themselves and their old ICE tech green.
But yes, they are kind of "useable" "EVs", but I wouldn't call a vehicle with 20 miles range in electric mode or less an "EV".
For me it's simply not an option, especially at the actual markup prices, it makes no sense to charge that battery with an ICE.
The model 3 is the clear winner today on the price/range category. No contest.

[mtdoc]

PHEVs are crap that OEMs push out to paint themselves green.

That sounds like a politically motivated and emotional view, not one based on the facts

The fact is, that I and thousands of others are driving our PHEVs daily and averaging over 200mpg in them, yet are able drive anywhere, any distance, anytime, if desired, without any concern about where to charge or any type of “range anxiety”. And I’ve already saved thousands in fuel costs.

While some of the early  PHEVs had laughingly small all electric ranges, most now have ranges in the 20-50 mile sweet spot that encompasses the vast majority of most peoples daily driving.

I dive my Volt daily, yet only burn gas in it perhaps one a month on a longer trip.

With the current gasoline centered refueling infrastructure, PHEVs make perfect sense for most people and are a good stepping stone on the way to an eventual all electric EV world.

Don’t get me wrong, i think EVs (or possibly horses ) will be the primary mode of personal transportation eventually, it’s just that for now, PHEVs make a lot if sense for many people.

[mtdoc]

The model 3 is the clear winner today on the price/range category. No contest.

I’d say that the Chevy Bolt, with it’s significantly lower price, yet respectable 238 mile range, is the winner on that metric for now.

It’s true that the original “base” model 3 is slated to be slightly cheaper (and lower range) than the Bolt, but are they even producing the low end Model 3 in any quantity yet? (Not yet apparently.)
 

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

PHEVs are crap that OEMs push out to paint themselves and their old ICE tech green.

EVs are the crap Tesla pushes out to paint themselves as greener than green. Who cares, you can't depend on an EV that you know for sure that sooner or later is going to let you stranded somewhere with a flat battery and no plug to recharge in miles around, unlike ICEs.

[Kjelt]

PHEVs are EVs. They are serial hybrids which have the ability to run 100% electric.
I thimk it’s very appropriate to have a table that includes both since many EV buyers will be considering  both types of EV.  The table delineates EV versus total range after all... 

They are per definition not EV's since they stil burn fossil fuel, a very very big difference.
The problem in our country is that almost 90% of the lease drivers with a hybrid never ever charge their battery thus it becomes a 100% fossil fuel powered vehicle, although with better efficiency.
I don't think any EV with a maximum range of 20-30 miles would ever been sold with the exception of those elderly/disabled transportation vehicles.

[Kjelt]

I’d say that the Chevy Bolt, with it’s significantly lower price, yet respectable 238 mile range, is the winner on that metric for now.

depends what you are comparing since GM looses 7,4-9k$ per sold car ¹⁺².
Tesla also looses money no idea how much per car, difficult to compare but for sure no company can sustain this with massproduction numbers.


¹http://gmauthority.com/blog/2017/06/ubs-gm-probably-loses-about-7400-per-chevrolet-bolt-ev/
²https://electrek.co/2016/11/30/gm-chevy-bolt-ev-loss-before-zev-credit/

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

PHEVs are EVs. They are serial hybrids which have the ability to run 100% electric.
I thimk it’s very appropriate to have a table that includes both since many EV buyers will be considering  both types of EV.  The table delineates EV versus total range after all... 

They are per definition not EV's since they stil burn fossil fuel, a very very big difference.
The problem in our country is that almost 90% of the lease drivers with a hybrid never ever charge their battery thus it becomes a 100% fossil fuel powered vehicle, although with better efficiency.
I don't think any EV with a maximum range of 20-30 miles would ever been sold with the exception of those elderly/disabled transportation vehicles.

Serial hybrids are EVs per definition. EVs with a backup fossil-fuel generator. The best of both worlds.

[mtdoc]

They are per definition not EV's since they stil burn fossil fuel,

I don’t think you understand how most PHEVs work. I can and have driven my Volt for weeks without any gasoline in the tank. The ICE is there only to produce electricity if needed.

By your definition almost all battery only EVs would not qualify since almost all of them will be having their batteries charged by fossil fuel derived grid power. IOW they burn fossil fuel now as well.

[Kjelt]

It is purely a question of definition but since they use different terms for the beasts namely PHEV vs EV says it all IMO.
They are not the same.
The end goal is to create an EV which does not consume fossil fuels with a range that is sufficient to replace ICE's.
That technology is not far enough (esp battery tech) to reach those goals and that we go for hybrid solutions in the meanwhile is a seperate issue.
But for the same definition you could call a hybrid an ICE since it has an internal combustion engine, take it out and you have an EV with a range of 20 miles 

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Put in the trunk of a Model S a generator and it becomes a Plug-able Hybrid Electric Vehicle.

[Kjelt]

I don’t think you understand how most PHEVs work. I can and have driven my Volt for weeks without any gasoline in the tank. The ICE is there only to produce electricity if needed.

Then you indeed use it as an EV.

By your definition almost all battery only EVs would not qualify since almost all of them will be having their batteries charged by fossil fuel derived grid power. IOW they burn fossil fuel now as well.

Question of time since the energy is more and more generated from cleaner sources and sources with other (storage) problems (nuclear pp's).

But hey I am still driving an ICE, last week for 0km since I bike 10kms to and from work 

[JohnnyMalaria]

What kind of metric is Price per kWh

kWh tells you something about the car, no?

(size of the battery)

But it's referring to the price of the car, not the running cost per kWh. Look at the values! The price of the car is more than just the cost of the battery. You could - at a stretch - estimate total cost of ownership but it would be meaningless. I can have a Pinto and a Bentley with the same size battery and range. Obviously the price per kWh for the Pinto would be a lot, lot less. It's a silly metric. It would be like comparing gas tank sizes.

[Marco]

Put in the trunk of a Model S a generator and it becomes a Plug-able Hybrid Electric Vehicle.

I wonder if Musk would ever cooperate with a third party to make that possible without some fragile hacks.

Ariel is getting close to launching their P40 with a 35 kW microturbine, you wouldn't even need the entire trunk ... and 35 kW is enough to charge the battery at highway speeds.

[wraper]

Put in the trunk of a Model S a generator and it becomes a Plug-able Hybrid Electric Vehicle.

I wonder if Musk would ever cooperate with a third party to make that possible without some fragile hacks.

Of course not because it's a step backwards. Not to say, I doubt there is a market for this.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Of course not because it's a step backwards.

Why is it a step backwards?

[f4eru]

Why is it a step backwards?

True, it's not just a step backwards. it's running in the wrong direction for an hour at least.
Because you would need to stop and fire the strange engine to charge veeery slooowly with that damn loud ICE, need to stop taking stinking gas, and have no real trunk left.
There's really no point in putting a range extender on a car that has excellent range and the best fast charging network.
If you want that, buy an ICE, not an EV.

[phil from seattle]

PHEVs are crap that OEMs push out to paint themselves and their old ICE tech green.

EVs are the crap Tesla pushes out to paint themselves as greener than green. Who cares, you can't depend on an EV that you know for sure that sooner or later is going to let you stranded somewhere with a flat battery and no plug to recharge in miles around, unlike ICEs.

Meh, put it back in your pants. 5 year Model S driver here.  Never been stranded, not even close. And, I've never heard of anyone being stranded other than that NYT writer that deliberately bricked a loaner model S by ignoring the car saying "plug me in soon" in multiple ways.

[DougSpindler]

PHEVs are crap that OEMs push out to paint themselves and their old ICE tech green.

EVs are the crap Tesla pushes out to paint themselves as greener than green. Who cares, you can't depend on an EV that you know for sure that sooner or later is going to let you stranded somewhere with a flat battery and no plug to recharge in miles around, unlike ICEs.

Meh, put it back in your pants. 5 year Model S driver here.  Never been stranded, not even close. And, I've never heard of anyone being stranded other than that NYT writer that deliberately bricked a loaner model S by ignoring the car saying "plug me in soon" in multiple ways.

There are many stores of Tesla car owners in California getting stranded or days at Lake Tahoe after a storm knocked out the power.  And at Christmas time Tesla owners drove to an outlet mall that only had two charge kept Tesla car owners waiting for hours to get a charge so they could make the trip back home.

And let’s not forget it takes Tesla drivers many hours longer to make the trip from Los Angeles to San Francisco because they keep having to stop to get recharged.  And if power is knocked out they are stranded.  Or if others are charging when they arrive they will have to wait even logger to get a charge.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Meh, put it back in your pants. 5 year Model S driver here.  Never been stranded, not even close.

That's because most EV owners have a good old ICE too and choose wisely before going out on long trips.