Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 460228 times)

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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1100 on: June 20, 2018, 02:04:45 pm »
And conflating the EVs with the green/AGW hysteria is a terrible idea.
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1101 on: June 20, 2018, 02:11:58 pm »
Elon Musk emailed Tesla staff about 'damaging sabotage' by employee.

Any one know what the story is?





 

Online wraper

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1102 on: June 20, 2018, 03:56:01 pm »
Elon Musk emailed Tesla staff about 'damaging sabotage' by employee.

Any one know what the story is?
Besides following from Musk's email it seems no more information is available.

Quote
I was dismayed to learn this weekend about a Tesla employee who had conducted quite extensive and damaging sabotage to our operations. This included making direct code changes to the Tesla Manufacturing Operating System under false usernames and exporting large amounts of highly sensitive Tesla data to unknown third parties.
 

Online wraper

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1103 on: June 20, 2018, 04:01:58 pm »
There was a case of him finding out a traitor in the early days of Tesla.

Quote
In October 2008, the news outlet Valleywag published a letter from an employee at Tesla. The company, just five years old then, had called employees into a meeting and revealed some troubling news, the writer said. Tesla had only $9 million in the bank. Meanwhile, the letter writer claimed, the company had taken more than 1,200 preorders for its electric cars—thousands of dollars in deposits—but delivered fewer than 50 to customers.

“I cannot conscientiously be a bystander anymore and allow my company to deceive the public and defraud our dear customers,” the employee wrote. “Our customers and the general public are the reason Tesla is so loved. The fact that they are being lied to is just wrong.”

The employee’s name was not revealed. But Elon Musk found this person anyway.

The way he did it is the stuff of Hardy Boys novels. According to the Ashlee Vance’s 2015 biography of the tech entrepreneur, Musk copied the text of the letter and pasted into a Word document, and checked the size of the file. He pored over the office’s printer activity logs, looking for a document that matched the one he had created. It’s not clear why this employee would print out the letter that appeared on Valleywag, but Musk’s hunch proved correct. He got a hit on the logs, and used that information to track down the person who carried out the printing job. The employee wrote a letter of apology and resigned.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1104 on: June 20, 2018, 04:57:46 pm »
It’s so errire how Elon is so much like Nikola Tesla.  Mysterious fires, his showmanship, outrageous claims etc.  The list of similarities continues to increase over time. 
 
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1105 on: June 20, 2018, 05:37:43 pm »
Elon Musk emailed Tesla staff about 'damaging sabotage' by employee.
Any one know what the story is?
Skapegoat?
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1106 on: June 20, 2018, 06:53:26 pm »
And when we say an ICE runs 10 mpg is because we've put 1 gallon into the tank and it's gone 10 miles with it. But you, to begin with, to draw 10kWh off your batt have to take (about) 10/0.85 -> almost 12 kWh off the wall plug, something that very conveniently always forget to mention in the figures you give.
Not true. The EPA numbers are measured from the wall socket so all of the car's inefficiencies are included. From power plant to wheels an EV has an efficiency somewhere around 70% because the chain of 'devices' in between is quite long.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1107 on: June 20, 2018, 06:58:44 pm »
I'm glad to see he estimates 19.9 kWh per 100 km. That's not the real thing either (under normal driving habits), but at least isn't the much lower silly figures most EV fanboys try to make us believe.
Roundabout 14 kWh/100km with our Ioniq driving at 100-110km/h on a highway.
You can calculate the range of your EV - and compare it to others - with this website: https://ecalc.ch/
The problem with numbers from users is that they are utterly meaningless. Without nowing the actual usage scenario you can't say something in general. Tests like the EPA is conducting and the new WLTP car test are the only proper numbers to use in a discussion. These tests are designed to compare cars under real driving scenarios so if you want to make a meaningfull comparison you have to go by the EPA and/or WLTP test results. The test results are also divided in city and highway driving so you can make an estimate on what kind of mileage you can expect yourself.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1108 on: June 20, 2018, 07:16:21 pm »
And when we say an ICE runs 10 mpg is because we've put 1 gallon into the tank and it's gone 10 miles with it. But you, to begin with, to draw 10kWh off your batt have to take (about) 10/0.85 -> almost 12 kWh off the wall plug, something that very conveniently always forget to mention in the figures you give.
Not true. The EPA numbers are measured from the wall socket so all of the car's inefficiencies are included.

The numbers the car (EV) shows on the dashboard include that? I don't think so. WRT the numbers on the stickers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent#Electric_and_plug-in_hybrid_electric_vehicles

"The formula employed by the EPA for calculating their rated MPGe does not account for any fuel or energy consumed upstream such as the generation and transmission of electrical power, or well-to-wheel life cycle, as EPA's comparison with internal combustion vehicles is made on a tank-to-wheel versus battery-to wheel basis"

Accent on "battery-to wheel" and "tank-to-wheel".
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 09:09:23 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Online wraper

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1109 on: June 20, 2018, 07:24:15 pm »
The numbers the car (EV) shows on the dashboard include that? I don't think so.
Do you measure mpg of ICE car by what fuel level dashboard shows or by actual distance?
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1110 on: June 20, 2018, 09:01:07 pm »
The numbers the car (EV) shows on the dashboard include that? I don't think so.
Do you measure mpg of ICE car by what fuel level dashboard shows or by actual distance?

litres pumped in/distance traveled. The litres/100km figures of the dashboard are always too optimistic :-)
The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1111 on: June 20, 2018, 10:19:45 pm »
And when we say an ICE runs 10 mpg is because we've put 1 gallon into the tank and it's gone 10 miles with it. But you, to begin with, to draw 10kWh off your batt have to take (about) 10/0.85 -> almost 12 kWh off the wall plug, something that very conveniently always forget to mention in the figures you give.
Not true. The EPA numbers are measured from the wall socket so all of the car's inefficiencies are included.

The numbers the car (EV) shows on the dashboard include that? I don't think so. WRT the numbers on the stickers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent#Electric_and_plug-in_hybrid_electric_vehicles

"The formula employed by the EPA for calculating their rated MPGe does not account for any fuel or energy consumed upstream such as the generation and transmission of electrical power, or well-to-wheel life cycle, as EPA's comparison with internal combustion vehicles is made on a tank-to-wheel versus battery-to wheel basis"

Accent on "battery-to wheel" and "tank-to-wheel".
The Wikipedia article is obviously wrong. How can the EPA measure between the batteries and the motor? They measure what goes into the car using a kWh meter between the mains socket and the car and then determine how far the car can go. This PDF describes the exact procedure followed during the EPA test: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/pdfs/EPA%20test%20procedure%20for%20EVs-PHEVs-11-14-2017.pdf

Quote:
After running the successive city cycles, the battery is recharged from a
normal AC source and the energy consumption of the vehicle is determined (in kW-hr/mile or kW-hr/100 miles) by
dividing the kilowatt-hours of energy to recharge the battery by the miles traveled by the vehicle. The recharge
energy includes any losses due to inefficiencies of the manufacturer’s charger.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1112 on: June 20, 2018, 11:36:49 pm »
Well done, EPA. But as I said the batt charge gauge numbers on the dashboard show battery kWh not kWh out of the wall plug => the dashboard MPGe figures are off (higher). I guess it makes sense, because most ICEs dashboards display quite optimistic MPG values too.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 05:24:26 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Offline jh15

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1113 on: June 21, 2018, 04:32:41 am »
How many here own a Tesla that can do some experiments and gather data?.

Years ago on a show called Car Talk, a public broadcasting radio show in America, a call-in:

I have a Toyota Prius, it seems I get much less gas mileage with a bike rack and bikes on. The hosts said to try it with the bikes inside. Was it the weight or the aerodynamics? Never heard the result.

My old 2017 60kwh model s power from the house was lost in our dithering of other things as  cleaning oven that month, a/c basement dehumidifier, how many large tektronix scopes I was playing with.

no charger either, just branched it across our split-phase for 13 amps at 240v.  Been a year I've had the 50 amp cable and stuff for licensed sparky to come in. Working on upgrading all the house old wiring before the town inspection.

The epa on my car is 101 highway, 99 city. So coal burner wise, equal to 5 mustang muscle cars less and better performance and longevity.
And no noise drama. Have the cheapest stereo too, no noise to drown out while dragging Maserite, etc.
Tek 575 curve trcr top shape, Tek 535, Tek 465. Tek 545 Hickok clone, Tesla Model S,  Ohio Scientific c24P SBC, c-64's from club days, Giant electric bicycle, Rigol stuff, Heathkit AR-15's. Heathkit ET- 3400a trainer&interface. Starlink pizza.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1114 on: June 21, 2018, 08:11:04 pm »
I have a Toyota Prius, it seems I get much less gas mileage with a bike rack and bikes on. The hosts said to try it with the bikes inside. Was it the weight or the aerodynamics? Never heard the result.
aerodynamics ofcourse  :palm: The weight of a few bikes is insignificant compared to the weight of the car. Judging from the looks the Prius has been optimised using a wind tunnel while trying to make a car which looks like a car.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1115 on: June 21, 2018, 10:38:55 pm »
When you live in a locale with an abundance of Hydro power, the numbers are quite impressive.  These numbers would be even better if they had our province at 90% Hydro, but it's a US site, and the world stops at the 49th

 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1116 on: June 21, 2018, 11:10:39 pm »
When you live in a locale with an abundance of Hydro power, the numbers are quite impressive.  These numbers would be even better if they had our province at 90% Hydro, but it's a US site, and the world stops at the 49th


Ad then there is the rest of the world.  We don’t have anymore sources for hydro.  So as the years progress hydro will continue to decrease over the years.
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1117 on: June 22, 2018, 02:23:46 pm »
Quote
So as the years progress hydro will continue to decrease over the years.
In percentage, yes.
But If you don't have hydro, you have solar :)
Big scale solar is on a steep rise...

Offline nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1118 on: June 22, 2018, 05:18:40 pm »
Quote
So as the years progress hydro will continue to decrease over the years.
In percentage, yes.
But If you don't have hydro, you have solar :)
Big scale solar is on a steep rise...
From a little bit to a little bit more. In absolute numbers solar doesn't contribute much to renewable energy. In many countries bio-mass and wind take care of the largest amount of renewable energy.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline ez24

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1119 on: June 22, 2018, 06:05:02 pm »
FYI   In today's paper they said Uber is going to pay drivers $1 extra per trip if the driver uses an EV.  Up to $20 a week.  Their app will help with planning the trip.

Uber is also building a EV charge station in my city.  This is to help Calif get to the goal of 5 million EV by 2030.  My answer to the question is 2030.
YouTube and Website Electronic Resources ------>  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/other-blog-specific/a/msg1341166/#msg1341166
 

Offline boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1120 on: June 22, 2018, 10:16:45 pm »
All the kWh/km figures the EV users give are wrong, to begin with.

What's wrong with the figures?  Here's what I'm getting (2018 eGolf, mostly city driving, live at the top of a hill)





13.9 kWh/100km
@ $0.085/kWh = C$1.18/100km
Petrol is $1.459/l here today, so that's the equiv of 1.18/1.459
.. 0.8l / 100km,
.. 353 ImpMPG
.. 294 USMPG

In an area where your electricity is more expensive (everywhere else but here), or petrol cheaper, it won't be as pronounced, but around here that's a pretty solid reason to want an electric car.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1121 on: June 22, 2018, 10:34:52 pm »
I don't think so. The price difference between a cheap electric car and an ICE car is about 15k euro (say Nissan Leaf versus Ford Fiesta). The price difference buys me over 9000 liters of fuel. With the Ford Fiesta doing 20km on one liter that will get me 180000km of driving range. Given the fact that the electricity isn't free the financial break even point will be closer to 200000km.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1122 on: June 22, 2018, 10:52:09 pm »
I don't think so. The price difference between a cheap electric car and an ICE car is about 15k euro (say Nissan Leaf versus Ford Fiesta). The price difference buys me over 9000 liters of fuel. With the Ford Fiesta doing 20km on one liter that will get me 180000km of driving range. Given the fact that the electricity isn't free the financial break even point will be closer to 200000km.

Canadian Prices:
2018 eGolf: $36,355 (not including $5,000 govt grant)
2018 Golf GTI $31,995 (auto)
2018 Golf Comfortline (auto, equipped similarly to base eGolf): $25,890

For me, the eGolf is actually cheaper than a GTI w/ auto transmission (however I'd personally have a standard), and only $5k more than a comfortline

Also, for trading in for a new electric car, you get $6k from the province no matter what you trade in. As my tradein was probably only worth $4k, that was another $2k of free money.

 

Online wraper

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1123 on: June 22, 2018, 10:55:38 pm »
Also, for trading in for a new electric car, you get $6k from the province no matter what you trade in. As my tradein was probably only worth $4k, that was another $2k of free money.
Why not buy some cheap junk which is barely alive, trade in that and sell your car for $4k?
 

Offline boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1124 on: June 22, 2018, 11:08:53 pm »
Also, for trading in for a new electric car, you get $6k from the province no matter what you trade in. As my tradein was probably only worth $4k, that was another $2k of free money.
Why not buy some cheap junk which is barely alive, trade in that and sell your car for $4k?

You had to show continuous ownership/insurance for the past 6 or 9 months, that's why.  I could have, and probably saved another $1k maybe, but the biggest issue was we weren't really sure when the car would arrive (they now have a 12-18 month backlog), and I didn't want to get into a potential moneypit of trying to keep a beater alive.
 


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