When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?

[ebastler]

It is not about the size of the vehicle but the useability of a similar sized vehicle. The leaking roof analogy is therefore very accurate.

Argghh... No, the EV debate (and your prior arguments) are, of course, not about the size. They are about the range. And the distance of the trip to be made, as well as the limited range of an EV, are rather predictable parameters. So they are very different from "leaks", or unexpected heavy rainfall. If you want to take a long-distance trip, you may want to rent a long-distance vehicle.

I am not sure whether you are playing dumb in order to troll, or are just too emotionally invested in this topic (why would you?) to read and write with a clear mind. In either case, I'm out of here; this is too frustrating.

[NiHaoMike]

Most don't even mention the nuisance of needing to plug it in every time they get back at home.

I don't know about you, but I would much prefer plugging in at home every day than having to stop by the gas station every other week or so. And as mentioned many times before, plug in hybrids give the best of both worlds.

Now I wonder how come there's not more investment in EVs that convert to plug in hybrids by adding a generator trailer?

[boffin]

It is not about the size of the vehicle but the useability of a similar sized vehicle. The leaking roof analogy is therefore very accurate.

Argghh... No, the EV debate (and your prior arguments) are, of course, not about the size. They are about the range. And the distance of the trip to be made, as well as the limited range of an EV, are rather predictable parameters. So they are very different from "leaks", or unexpected heavy rainfall. If you want to take a long-distance trip, you may want to rent a long-distance vehicle.

I am not sure whether you are playing dumb in order to troll, or are just too emotionally invested in this topic (why would you?) to read and write with a clear mind. In either case, I'm out of here; this is too frustrating.

Remember, this is the same guy that thought the physics of drag affected EVs differently than ICE vehicles.

[DougSpindler]

Most don't even mention the nuisance of needing to plug it in every time they get back at home.

I don't know about you, but I would much prefer plugging in at home every day than having to stop by the gas station every other week or so. And as mentioned many times before, plug in hybrids give the best of both worlds.

Now I wonder how come there's not more investment in EVs that convert to plug in hybrids by adding a generator trailer?

May I ask you where you learned physics?   You have some interesting concepts that all break the law of physics.  Just wondering who is teaching this stuff?

[NiHaoMike]

May I ask you where you learned physics?   You have some interesting concepts that all break the law of physics.  Just wondering who is teaching this stuff?

Please explain why the idea of adding a generator trailer breaks the law of physics. It has actually been done by DIYers. What's missing is commercial investment into that technology.

[DougSpindler]

May I ask you where you learned physics?   You have some interesting concepts that all break the law of physics.  Just wondering who is teaching this stuff?

Please explain why the idea of adding a generator trailer breaks the law of physics. It has actually been done by DIYers. What's missing is commercial investment into that technology.

Help me understand what it is you are trying to do by adding a generator trailor?  Are you thinking as the car travels down the road the generator will produce electricity to power the car as in a perpetual motion machine?  Yup, that violate the laws of physics.

[CatalinaWOW]

The way I understand the concept the trailer has an ICE, a generator, a gas tank and a power outlet.  It ends up working like a less integrated version of the Volt.  For the 98% of trips around town you leave the trailer in the garage and don't pay the Volt penalty of dragging the motor generator set around.  On the highway the ICE is set to run at it's optimum efficiency point and supplements the battery.  Could also be used for overnight charges in places that have limited power.  The idea isn't brain dead, and if well implemented might be a potential solution to the range problem.  All of you laws of physics guys can now do a face palm and ask yourself why you didn't think of that

[NiHaoMike]

Help me understand what it is you are trying to do by adding a generator trailor?  Are you thinking as the car travels down the road the generator will produce electricity to power the car as in a perpetual motion machine?  Yup, that violate the laws of physics.

The whole point of the generator trailer is to turn the EV into a hybrid. It can even still be running on renewable energy if biofuels are used. The advantage over a hybrid to begin with is no extra weight for daily driving.
Here's an example:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/the-acp-long-ranger.802/
Note that it has been tried over 10 years ago but didn't really catch on. The generator could be replaced with fuel cells or batteries in the future as technology improves.

[CatalinaWOW]

The biggest problem with the trailer concepts is that electric vehicles are really optimized.  Introducing something else into the equation is tough, and making one size fit all is really tough.  As is generating customized solutions for each of the vehicles out there.

To do it right it should be integrated into the vehicle battery management.  The dynamic braking system should be adjusted to reflect the presence of the trailer.  Which brings up the idea of putting a trailer hitch on these super lightweight and optimized vehicles.  The list goes on and on. 

It is probably more a matter of economics than engineering that has kept these things off of the market.  No one has been able to project sales sufficient to cover the R&D.  This might change as the EV market gets bigger.

[vk6zgo]

May I ask you where you learned physics?   You have some interesting concepts that all break the law of physics.  Just wondering who is teaching this stuff?

Please explain why the idea of adding a generator trailer breaks the law of physics. It has actually been done by DIYers. What's missing is commercial investment into that technology.

Help me understand what it is you are trying to do by adding a generator trailor?  Are you thinking as the car travels down the road the generator will produce electricity to power the car as in a perpetual motion machine?  Yup, that violate the laws of physics.

Don't be silly!

There is no such thing as a "generator trailer" which gets its power from the wheel's rotation.
Generator trailer means a generator driven by a ICE .
This would provide electric power to either supply the actual motor requirements, or to recharge the EV batteries, or both.

There would be an obvious increase in the amount of mechanical power needed to move the thing along the road, just like any trailer, but any reduction in range from that would be a small downside compared to the convenience of increasing the vehicle range.

[DougSpindler]

May I ask you where you learned physics?   You have some interesting concepts that all break the law of physics.  Just wondering who is teaching this stuff?

Please explain why the idea of adding a generator trailer breaks the law of physics. It has actually been done by DIYers. What's missing is commercial investment into that technology.

Help me understand what it is you are trying to do by adding a generator trailor?  Are you thinking as the car travels down the road the generator will produce electricity to power the car as in a perpetual motion machine?  Yup, that violate the laws of physics.

Don't be silly!

There is no such thing as a "generator trailer" which gets its power from the wheel's rotation.
Generator trailer means a generator driven by a ICE .
This would provide electric power to either supply the actual motor requirements, or to recharge the EV batteries, or both.

There would be an obvious increase in the amount of mechanical power needed to move the thing along the road, just like any trailer, but any reduction in range from that would be a small downside compared to the convenience of increasing the vehicle range.

Ummm up until the mid 1950s all cars had generators.  Must not have been then sillily.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Year over year ICE auto sales turned down in September (usually the strongest month). Historically, this has been a harbinger of coming recession.  Meanwhile EV sales have continued to grow at a rapid rate.

Overall, 1st world ICE auto sales have been relatively flat for the past 20 years.  However when you add in the developing world (esp China) there has been modest growth.

In all cases - over the past few years, EV sales growth has far,far surpassed ICE sales growth (if any).

My prediction is that ICE auto sales will continue to stagnate while EV sales growth continues its exponential growth pattern. Eventually, in 20 years or so we'll be in a place where the large majority of auto sales will be EVs though overall total auto sales will never again reach current levels. Globally, the economy is peaking.

It's easier to go from selling, say, 10 thousand cars a year to 40 thousand cars a year, wow, 400% growth! But that's just 30 thousand more cars. OTOH "stagnated" at 3.1% year to year growth when you're selling 79 million cars a year, that's 2.5 million more on top of that 79 millions:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/200002/international-car-sales-since-1990/

PEVs are (5.4e6) still less than 0.4% of the total (1.3e9), and most of that 0.4% are hybrids, thus ICEs anyway, not BEVs.

Hybrids are the only way they're managing to shove EVs down our throats, other than forbidding ICEs which seems to be on the agenda of the dummies that rule us, or so it seems.

[free_electron]

- long trips require planning to find charging points,
- long breaks (great if you like to eat bad food at restaurants along a highway) but they all like to pull away faster from the traffic light.
- Most don't even mention the nuisance of needing to plug it in every time they get back at home.

No it doesn't require planning. The car plans it all by itself. There are so many chargers that almost at any given point one is in reach. Many shopping centers have em now.
Not long breaks. Drive 3 hours , go for pipi and a cup of coffee and move on. 20 to 30 minutes tops you off. You may want ot drive for more than 3 hours non stop but i like to stretch my legs. it actually makes road trips enjoyable.
What nuisance ? put it in the garage and plug it in. What is the problem ? and it's not like you have to. I plug them in maybe one every two to 3 weeks at home. Otherwise i plug at shopping centers. Whenever we go for groceries , or we go for dinner somewhere :plug em there. When you come back the batteries are full.

[DougSpindler]

Visited the Tesla showroom last night.  Trying to decide between a Tesla and Volt.  (Not sure what else to consider).  The Bavarian Money Wasters is out, as the BMW once the battery is depleted only runs on a gas engine at 40 MPH and has a couple gallons of fuel.  (How stupid is that.)

Anyway Tesla had a big screen to show you how much the electricty would cost to charge the car.  (Very nice).  Bleeping A.  Using California/PG&E’s EV rate during peak hours it costs nearly $50 dollars to charge the car.  I just filled my truck/ICE and it was $50. 

Now I realize that’s during peak hours, so during partial peak it’s $25 and off-peak it’s $12.  Imagine if a tank of gas cost $12 or $50 depending on when you purchase it. 

So for Tesla and other EV owners when you take a long trip and have to charge how much are you charged?  (I have a Volt, so long trips just use gas.). But if i were to get an EV only car I’m wondering what the EV rates are.  I’ve never seen them posted at ChargePoint or other places.  I’m wondering if they Charging Stations charge as much or more than the equilivnet for gasoline?

[nctnico]

- long trips require planning to find charging points,
- long breaks (great if you like to eat bad food at restaurants along a highway) but they all like to pull away faster from the traffic light.
- Most don't even mention the nuisance of needing to plug it in every time they get back at home.

No it doesn't require planning. The car plans it all by itself. There are so many chargers that almost at any given point one is in reach. Many shopping centers have em now.
Not long breaks. Drive 3 hours , go for pipi and a cup of coffee and move on. 20 to 30 minutes tops you off. You may want ot drive for more than 3 hours non stop but i like to stretch my legs. it actually makes road trips enjoyable.
What nuisance ? put it in the garage and plug it in. What is the problem ? and it's not like you have to. I plug them in maybe one every two to 3 weeks at home. Otherwise i plug at shopping centers. Whenever we go for groceries , or we go for dinner somewhere :plug em there. When you come back the batteries are full.

Read what you are writing: plug-in here, plug-in there, plug-in here, plug-in there, plug-in here, plug-in there. Always baby sitting the car! That just utterly sucks. Also there may be chargers where you are going but read this review: https://www.autoweek.nl/reviews/artikel/volkswagen-e-golf-2018-4/ This guy had to borrow a car to go to Italy because there aren't enough chargers there. The UK and Belgium started to get challenging already for him and in eastern Europe it is even worse. Sure this isn't a problem in California but what if you'd want to go to Mexico for example? And how about making sure the hotel you are staying at has a charger which works?

It is all way too much hassle.  Why the hell would I put up with that if I can buy a car on petrol which needs a fill in the morning and goes the entire day? My wife can drive too so our road trips usually look like this: I drive 2 hours, she drives 2 hours (nap time for me), I drive 1,5 hours and she drives 1,5 hours and we are where we want to be. Just pee and go again when changing drivers. Even including the pee breaks we often arrive ahead of the travel time the navigation system estimated. Sometimes we drive in the evening as well and if there is one thing you shouldn't do it is hanging around at a gas station when it is dark and quiet.

[SiliconWizard]

Agree mostly with the too high maintenance point. Not only is this a hassle, but it creates a dependency that may end up putting you at risk. And yes, for most people living in urban areas, having their own individual charging spot is out of the question, and it's only going to get worse as urban areas get denser, which is the current trend that I don't see reversing in any foreseeable future. Unfortunately, urban areas are the ones where EVs would make the most sense, due to the relatively shorter trips and the density which makes local pollution much more of a problem. Damn.

Very few people are also talking about the real environmental impact of EVs overall. They'd be in for a bad surprise.

But the main issue I see as of now is that EVs are not a scalable solution. We just don't have the ability to generate that much electricity to replace petrol-based vehicles, and most plans of getting there are against current trends of progressively getting rid of both fossile-based electricity generation and nuclear energy (even though we know this is just wishful thinking, but we fail to see the consistency of it all). Current battery technologies also make use of materials that are not renewable. Current users and proponents of EVs just don't want to see that they are taking advantage of a very temporary situation that is only going to work for a very few, priviledged people.

Of course not saying that we should just accept the status quo, but I think there are more urgent fields in which to invest to get there. Designing an EV with current technology is not hard anymore, at least if we accept their current limitations. Designing sustainable energy generation and storage solutions is. Basic project management principles teach you should address the hardest issues first.
Just my humble opinion of course. Expecting to read flaming comments.

[nctnico]

Agree mostly with the too high maintenance point. Not only is this a hassle, but it creates a dependency that may end up putting you at risk.

That is true as well. If you can't charge at home from your own outlet and thus need to use a public charger in front of your house then you are basically screwed because you have to pay whatever the company which exploits it charges. I estimate a public charger costs around 10000 euro to install including all the overhead. Assuming it will be there for 10 years (*) you end up paying 1000 euros per year. To put that in perspective: in the Netherlands that almost buys you a year of health insurance. With a car on fuel (including Hydrogen) you can at least shop around and have some healthy competition between fuel providers.

Free charging ain't going to be around forever. At some point companies need to recoup the money invested in the chargers.

* By that time batteries which can be charged within 5 minutes may exist or EVs went away but either way the charging point may no longer be necessary and must have paid for itself.

[vk6zgo]

May I ask you where you learned physics?   You have some interesting concepts that all break the law of physics.  Just wondering who is teaching this stuff?

Please explain why the idea of adding a generator trailer breaks the law of physics. It has actually been done by DIYers. What's missing is commercial investment into that technology.

Help me understand what it is you are trying to do by adding a generator trailor?  Are you thinking as the car travels down the road the generator will produce electricity to power the car as in a perpetual motion machine?  Yup, that violate the laws of physics.

Don't be silly!

There is no such thing as a "generator trailer" which gets its power from the wheel's rotation.
Generator trailer means a generator driven by a ICE .
This would provide electric power to either supply the actual motor requirements, or to recharge the EV batteries, or both.

There would be an obvious increase in the amount of mechanical power needed to move the thing along the road, just like any trailer, but any reduction in range from that would be a small downside compared to the convenience of increasing the vehicle range.

Ummm up until the mid 1950s all cars had generators.  Must not have been then sillily.

Sorry, but all the generator in the car did, was to use a bit of the power available from the engine to charge the battery, which in turn was needed to run the electrical system.
OK, in practice, the generator produced enough power to operate all that stuff, whilst the battery, once recharged ater starting the engine, was pretty much on a "float" charge.
This is exactly what the alternator still does.

What was "silly" was your "perpetual motion" comment----nobody expected the generator to use power from the EV, & then re-use the same power to drive it.
In any normal use, a "Generator Trailer" is a "standalone" device which uses an internal combustion engine to drive a generator ( usually in real life, an alternator, but common usage still says "generator").

TV stations use such things for OBs in places where Mains power is either not available or erratic.
Campers use very small hand carried versions of the same thing.

The idea being floated was to use a mid sized version, wired to the EV, to create a poor copy of a Hybrid.
I don't think it is workable, either, but that has more to do with pure usability, rather than physical laws.

[glarsson]

The concept has been tested. During WW2 many cars were converted from petrol to wood gas. The gas generator was either mounted on the car or on a small generator trailer.

[f4eru]

Really strange idea to put a stinking ICE behind an EV.
It's much more practical to simply improve the range of most (non tesla)BEVs of today witn undersized battery and bad cooling and to get real fast charging near highways.

[glarsson]

Some manufacturers put a heavy stinking ICE INSIDE an EV!

[CatalinaWOW]

Nice to see that emotion has no part in this discussion  .  Also good to know that eliminating range issues is just a matter of wanting it.  Wave your magic wand and get 3X battery capacity and/or ubiquitous high rate low cost charging stations. 

Many engineers have bent their pick on this.  After over 100 years Tesla has finally gotten it good enough for some, but not all users by standing on the shoulders of giants and taking big risks.   

[eugenenine]

Clearly the only fix is to install wireless charging coils underneath of solar roadways.

Large trains use an ICE to drive a generator which then drives the electric motors.  The idea here is the ICE can stay within its most efficient operating range.

[nctnico]

Clearly the only fix is to install wireless charging coils underneath of solar roadways.

Large trains use an ICE to drive a generator which then drives the electric motors.  The idea here is the ICE can stay within its most efficient operating range.

AFAIK that is not the reason. Electric motors allow better control over traction. Because the wheels on a train have much less friction towards the rails compared to tyres on a car pulling a train away is a much more delicate procedure. Also the amount of power involved would probably make a clutch or torque converter bulky and unreliable.

[DougSpindler]

- long trips require planning to find charging points,
- long breaks (great if you like to eat bad food at restaurants along a highway) but they all like to pull away faster from the traffic light.
- Most don't even mention the nuisance of needing to plug it in every time they get back at home.

No it doesn't require planning. The car plans it all by itself. There are so many chargers that almost at any given point one is in reach. Many shopping centers have em now.
Not long breaks. Drive 3 hours , go for pipi and a cup of coffee and move on. 20 to 30 minutes tops you off. You may want ot drive for more than 3 hours non stop but i like to stretch my legs. it actually makes road trips enjoyable.
What nuisance ? put it in the garage and plug it in. What is the problem ? and it's not like you have to. I plug them in maybe one every two to 3 weeks at home. Otherwise i plug at shopping centers. Whenever we go for groceries , or we go for dinner somewhere :plug em there. When you come back the batteries are full.

Read what you are writing: plug-in here, plug-in there, plug-in here, plug-in there, plug-in here, plug-in there. Always baby sitting the car! That just utterly sucks. Also there may be chargers where you are going but read this review: https://www.autoweek.nl/reviews/artikel/volkswagen-e-golf-2018-4/ This guy had to borrow a car to go to Italy because there aren't enough chargers there. The UK and Belgium started to get challenging already for him and in eastern Europe it is even worse. Sure this isn't a problem in California but what if you'd want to go to Mexico for example? And how about making sure the hotel you are staying at has a charger which works?

It is all way too much hassle.  Why the hell would I put up with that if I can buy a car on petrol which needs a fill in the morning and goes the entire day? My wife can drive too so our road trips usually look like this: I drive 2 hours, she drives 2 hours (nap time for me), I drive 1,5 hours and she drives 1,5 hours and we are where we want to be. Just pee and go again when changing drivers. Even including the pee breaks we often arrive ahead of the travel time the navigation system estimated. Sometimes we drive in the evening as well and if there is one thing you shouldn't do it is hanging around at a gas station when it is dark and quiet.

Friend some people care about thei planet (air, food supply) and further generations.  Sure you might be incovineced on one of your trips if you have an electric car and need a charge, but in exchange you willl have clean air to breath, food to eat.  Maybe those things are not important to you, but for many people they are.