When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?

[ahbushnell]

Visited the Tesla showroom last night.  Trying to decide between a Tesla and Volt.  (Not sure what else to consider).  The Bavarian Money Wasters is out, as the BMW once the battery is depleted only runs on a gas engine at 40 MPH and has a couple gallons of fuel.  (How stupid is that.)

Anyway Tesla had a big screen to show you how much the electricty would cost to charge the car.  (Very nice).  Bleeping A.  Using California/PG&E’s EV rate during peak hours it costs nearly $50 dollars to charge the car.  I just filled my truck/ICE and it was $50. 

Now I realize that’s during peak hours, so during partial peak it’s $25 and off-peak it’s $12.  Imagine if a tank of gas cost $12 or $50 depending on when you purchase it. 

So for Tesla and other EV owners when you take a long trip and have to charge how much are you charged?  (I have a Volt, so long trips just use gas.). But if i were to get an EV only car I’m wondering what the EV rates are.  I’ve never seen them posted at ChargePoint or other places.  I’m wondering if they Charging Stations charge as much or more than the equilivnet for gasoline?

At San Diego State University they charge the students .70$/kW-hr. Here the on peak rate is .45. 

[ahbushnell]

I just got on the Tesla travel planning site and on Google maps.  The trip is from Cisco TX to Albuquerque NM.  There is a fast charger at Cisco.  If I drive by Google it's 8 hours.  I would stop once for gas and have lunch. 

The Tesla route goes up almost into Oklahoma and is an extra 60 miles.  Tesla says the trip is 11 hours.  Charging stops are 30+45+30 minutes per Tesla.  I assume this would be warm weather traveling.    Google thinks the drive on the Tesla route is 8:54.  Which gives a number almost the same as Tesla when you add the charging time. 

This is a trip I make from time to time.  So by gas ~9 hours and ~11 hours bye EV.   

For me driving around town would work I think with an EV.  But I would need a second car.  But for people who don't own a house and have to find a cheap apartment I would be concerned being able to charge at night.  I talked my son into a Volt because of that. 

[eugenenine]

here's a challenge.  The trip I make is from Columbus OH to Terra Alta WV.  Can I find chargers there?

[ahbushnell]

here's a challenge.  The trip I make is from Columbus OH to Terra Alta WV.  Can I find chargers there?

The Tesla Ap says there is one 16.3km away at Haley Farm Inn and Retreat Center.  The trip is 4:13 and one charging stop of 10 minutes at Triadelphia, WV.  Not too bad. 

[free_electron]

Read what you are writing: plug-in here, plug-in there, plug-in here, plug-in there, plug-in here, plug-in there. Always baby sitting the car!

So what ? the car is parked anyway while i am shopping / restaurant . IT just sits there in the parking lot. All i have to do is plug in a cable when i get out. done.Not har dot do nor remember. And charging is free.( at least with my cars).

And how about making sure the hotel you are staying at has a charger which works?

Many hotels have chargers. and again, if you have a tesla , even a 110 volt socket will do. You don't need special chargers, the car comes with a universal mobile charger. You can tap into anything. 110 volt 15 amp , 110 volt 20 amp , 240 volt 30 ,40 and 50 amp. or a J1772 plug. It eats anything and everything.

I spent a long weekend at a cabin in the woods with only a 110v volt outlet. Overnight ( plug in at 8pm and charge until 8 am ) that gives me 50 miles of range. More than enough.
it really is a non-issue.

[free_electron]

For most people living in urban areas, having their own individual charging spot is out of the question, and it's only going to get worse as urban areas get denser, which is the current trend that I don't see reversing in any foreseeable future.

Most homes have a garage. most condominium / apartment complexes have assigned parking places. In your garage you have a power outlet.
Apartment complexes can install chargers.

It is up to legislature to mandate power outlets. In many area's of california it is now mandatory for new buildings (single family and multifamily dwellings to have
- charger connection point ( pre-wiring : fiue and loadbox. you install the charger itself as that depends on the car. If you have a tesla you are set. no charge required just plug in to the nema 14-50
- conduit running from loadpanel to the roof , sometimes pre-wired for future solar installation
- certain areas make solar mandatory

for remodeling that involves changing loadpanel : see above. you need to install an extra breaker pair and the outlet.
The cost is minimal and it drives up the value of the house.

We just don't have the ability to generate that much electricity

I see that. In Belgium they now have an 'afschakelplan'. Their power-plants are so aging that they can't supply enough power and they selectively will switch off power to certain municipalities and cities when needed. Welcome to almost 2019. Where the country that hosts the capital of the European union can't even guarantee enough power for its citizens... It's a disgrace ! they should fire ALL the European ministers responsible for that fiasco. Donating millions to provide help in africa so they can have power over there... and there's not enough in their own country. IDIOTS.

Current battery technologies also make use of materials that are not renewable

Lithium cobalt cells are for almost 95% recyclable into new cells. There is very little filler in the packs.

[ahbushnell]

Apartment complexes can install chargers.

I'll have my son tell the land lord he has to install a charger.  Great idea. I'm sure it will work.   

[nctnico]

Friend some people care about thei planet (air, food supply) and further generations.  Sure you might be incovineced on one of your trips if you have an electric car and need a charge, but in exchange you willl have clean air to breath, food to eat.  Maybe those things are not important to you, but for many people they are.

Nobody cares. Really. The current numbers show that oil consumption will increase until 2040 and so will CO2 emissions.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

So for Tesla and other EV owners when you take a long trip and have to charge how much are you charged?  (I have a Volt, so long trips just use gas.). But if i were to get an EV only car I’m wondering what the EV rates are.  I’ve never seen them posted at ChargePoint or other places.  I’m wondering if they Charging Stations charge as much or more than the equilivnet for gasoline?

At San Diego State University they charge the students .70$/kW-hr. Here the on peak rate is .45.

Then an EV cost is 0.7[$/kWh]*20[kWh/100km] -> 14 $/100km, versus 1.35[$/litre]*7[litres/100km] -> 9 $/100km for a diesel ICE.

[eugenenine]

here's a challenge.  The trip I make is from Columbus OH to Terra Alta WV.  Can I find chargers there?

The Tesla Ap says there is one 16.3km away at Haley Farm Inn and Retreat Center.  The trip is 4:13 and one charging stop of 10 minutes at Triadelphia, WV.  Not too bad.

Ok, Triadelphia makes sense, near wheeling and along i70 so a lot of travelers.  Our farm is 1/2 way between Terra Alta and Rowlesburg, so the one in MD near Deep Creek is ~45 minutes away.  Maybe someday they will get one in the county.  We got our 5th stop light a few years ago when Walmart moved in and my parents recently got touch tone dialing on their phone.

[free_electron]

Apartment complexes can install chargers.

I'll have my son tell the land lord he has to install a charger.  Great idea. I'm sure it will work.

Absolutely. Many states have legislation that forbids HOA's from blocking that. If it is an assigned space (common but exclusive use) they can tie it in to your meter. Problem solved. In other instances they make it a metered system where you pay directly at the charger . There is no cost to HOA then. But they can't block it.
I happen to be a board member of an HOA. Submit architectural request, get city permit and licensed electrician and move on. took me 2 weeks. They installed a dedicated breaker and NEMA 14-40 outlet wired to my subpanel so it runs off my meter (i have exclusive use of my garage) . Done.

California:
" (a) Any covenant, restriction, or condition contained in any deed, contract, security instrument, or other instrument affecting the transfer or sale of any interest in a common interest development, and any provision of a governing document, as defined in subdivision (j) of Section 1351, that either effectively prohibits or unreasonably restricts the installation or use of an electric vehicle charging station in an owner’s designated parking space, including, but not limited to, a deeded parking space, a parking space in an owner’s exclusive use common area, or a parking space that is specifically designated for use by a particular owner, or is in conflict with the provisions of this section is void and unenforceable. "

[IanMacdonald]

Friend some people care about thei planet (air, food supply) and further generations.  Sure you might be incovineced on one of your trips if you have an electric car and need a charge, but in exchange you willl have clean air to breath, food to eat.  Maybe those things are not important to you, but for many people they are.

Vehicular pollution is a largely solved problem. The modern IC engine is vastly cleaner than that of half a century ago. The reason to keep the campaign going regardless is obvious, it keeps the funds flowing in to certain NGOs.

Nevertheless, if there is a perceived need to reduce exhaust emissions below their already low levels, then the sensible approach would be a change of fuel to hydrogen, methane or maybe alcohols, all of which burn more cleanly than heavier hydrocarbons. The reason for the massive push toward battery cars with their impractically short range and problematic refuelling has more to do with vested interests within the 'green' NGOs promoting this policy to governments.  The vested interests likely include financial backing, however they also serve to promote the pipedream that one day, all energy will be supplied by wind turbines. Along with car owners being coerced providing a free Grid backup system by way of draining their batteries when the wind doesn't blow. Which, you can't do to hydrogen car owners.

THAT is why the battery vehicles, and no other, more practical, type. The wind turbine pipedream MUST be made reality. 

[DougSpindler]

Friend some people care about thei planet (air, food supply) and further generations.  Sure you might be incovineced on one of your trips if you have an electric car and need a charge, but in exchange you willl have clean air to breath, food to eat.  Maybe those things are not important to you, but for many people they are.

Vehicular pollution is a largely solved problem. The modern IC engine is vastly cleaner than that of half a century ago. The reason to keep the campaign going regardless is obvious, it keeps the funds flowing in to certain NGOs.

Nevertheless, if there is a perceived need to reduce exhaust emissions below their already low levels, then the sensible approach would be a change of fuel to hydrogen, methane or maybe alcohols, all of which burn more cleanly than heavier hydrocarbons. The reason for the massive push toward battery cars with their impractically short range and problematic refuelling has more to do with vested interests within the 'green' NGOs promoting this policy to governments.  The vested interests likely include financial backing, however they also serve to promote the pipedream that one day, all energy will be supplied by wind turbines. Along with car owners being coerced providing a free Grid backup system by way of draining their batteries when the wind doesn't blow. Which, you can't do to hydrogen car owners.

THAT is why the battery vehicles, and no other, more practical, type. The wind turbine pipedream MUST be made reality. 

Have you been sucking on an exhaust pipe?  Dude don't you know why Hydrogen comes from?  It's fossil fuels.  Try researncng your "soultions" before posting.  I posted a vidoe on the fesibility of Hyderogen carrs.  We just don't have the technology and theromodynamicly it's just net feasable.

Exahst polution has no means a solved.  Compared to 50-50 years yss things are better.  but by no means have we solved them.  This is why it's called man caused climate chnage.

Again do you want to be a good steward of our enviroment and leave it in "good" condition now and for futre generations?  Or are you just living for the moment and have no problem screwing your fellow man?

[boffin]

At San Diego State University they charge the students .70$/kW-hr. Here the on peak rate is .45.

Nice scare tactic; here are the real prices.  But the question really is, why charge at work, when you can do so at home for 0.12/kWh off-peak.


San Diego State University - Parking Lot M
Blink Members: $.49/KwHr - Guests: $.59/KwHr

San Diego State University - P7
$0.49/kWh Blink Member, $0.59/kWh Guest.

San Diego State University - P2A
DCFC: $0.59/kWh Blink Member, $0.69/kWh Guest.
Level 2: $0.49/kWh Blink Member, $0.59/kWh Guest.

San Diego State University - P3
ChargePoint station is Free. Blink is $0.49/kWh for members, and $0.59/kWh for guests.

San Diego State University - Children's Center
$0.49/kWh Blink Member, $0.59/kWh Guest.

[nctnico]

At San Diego State University they charge the students .70$/kW-hr. Here the on peak rate is .45.

Nice scare tactic; here are the real prices.  But the question really is, why charge at work, when you can do so at home for 0.12/kWh off-peak.

If you can't charge at home for example.  The world is bigger than your front lawn.

[DougSpindler]

At San Diego State University they charge the students .70$/kW-hr. Here the on peak rate is .45.

Nice scare tactic; here are the real prices.  But the question really is, why charge at work, when you can do so at home for 0.12/kWh off-peak.


San Diego State University - Parking Lot M
Blink Members: $.49/KwHr - Guests: $.59/KwHr

San Diego State University - P7
$0.49/kWh Blink Member, $0.59/kWh Guest.

San Diego State University - P2A
DCFC: $0.59/kWh Blink Member, $0.69/kWh Guest.
Level 2: $0.49/kWh Blink Member, $0.59/kWh Guest.

San Diego State University - P3
ChargePoint station is Free. Blink is $0.49/kWh for members, and $0.59/kWh for guests.

San Diego State University - Children's Center
$0.49/kWh Blink Member, $0.59/kWh Guest.

Wow.....  To charge a Tesla it would be over $50.  And I supect one has to pay for the parking as well.  I know at UC Davis one has to pay for parking, but charing is free.

[boffin]

At San Diego State University they charge the students .70$/kW-hr. Here the on peak rate is .45.

Nice scare tactic; here are the real prices.  But the question really is, why charge at work, when you can do so at home for 0.12/kWh off-peak.

If you can't charge at home for example.  The world is bigger than your front lawn.

exactly, the world is bigger than just the SD State Univ parking garages. There are plenty of other lower-cost alternatives in San Diego, OR you could charge at home. I would guess that  almost everyone living in the United States has access to some parking, somewhere near a regular wall outlet, which will allow you to put 60-80km (less than most people drive/day) into your car overnight.

I have friends that own EVs and only use their 120V @ 10A regular outlet to charge it; I'm a little luckier as it was relatively easy to add a 240V / 30A in my garage.

[glue_ru]

unfortunely, producing electricity is not free nor entirely "green".  We have coal burning plants here to produce electric.
Wind and solar have to be subsidized to break even.  Elon Musk stole our tax dollars and claims he is a billionaire, (with public funds).
Many others could easily can run Telsa, Elon is just a stoned schmuck and I can't stand him.
Electric is ok for city commuting and that, and it will get better. Fast swap batteries is the key for long trips.

[dr.diesel]

Saw a Fisker Karma today, first EV I've seen in town to date.  (not including hybrids)

We also got a Meijer recently, only charging station available, but I think it's Tesla only.

Won't be the only one soon, my 1948 Crosley conversion is progressing well.

[ahbushnell]

Apartment complexes can install chargers.

I'll have my son tell the land lord he has to install a charger.  Great idea. I'm sure it will work.

So if your an owner you can install a charger.  Doesn't help my son who is a renter. 
Absolutely. Many states have legislation that forbids HOA's from blocking that. If it is an assigned space (common but exclusive use) they can tie it in to your meter. Problem solved. In other instances they make it a metered system where you pay directly at the charger . There is no cost to HOA then. But they can't block it.
I happen to be a board member of an HOA. Submit architectural request, get city permit and licensed electrician and move on. took me 2 weeks. They installed a dedicated breaker and NEMA 14-40 outlet wired to my subpanel so it runs off my meter (i have exclusive use of my garage) . Done.

California:
" (a) Any covenant, restriction, or condition contained in any deed, contract, security instrument, or other instrument affecting the transfer or sale of any interest in a common interest development, and any provision of a governing document, as defined in subdivision (j) of Section 1351, that either effectively prohibits or unreasonably restricts the installation or use of an electric vehicle charging station in an owner’s designated parking space, including, but not limited to, a deeded parking space, a parking space in an owner’s exclusive use common area, or a parking space that is specifically designated for use by a particular owner, or is in conflict with the provisions of this section is void and unenforceable. "

[free_electron]

At San Diego State University they charge the students .70$/kW-hr. Here the on peak rate is .45.

Nice scare tactic; here are the real prices.  But the question really is, why charge at work, when you can do so at home for 0.12/kWh off-peak.

If you can't charge at home for example.  The world is bigger than your front lawn.

so because you can't charge at home ,  EV are inconvenient ..  The world is bigger than your home ...

[free_electron]

So if your an owner you can install a charger.  Doesn't help my son who is a renter. 

ah, yes. that may be a problem...

Although, again in california, it is possible :

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1094117_in-ca-renters-can-now-install-electric-car-charging-stations
https://www.chargepoint.com/drivers/apartments-and-condos/
https://www.kts-law.com/electric-vehicle-charging-stations-for-california-landlords/

[ahbushnell]

At San Diego State University they charge the students .70$/kW-hr. Here the on peak rate is .45.

Nice scare tactic; here are the real prices.  But the question really is, why charge at work, when you can do so at home for 0.12/kWh off-peak.

If you can't charge at home for example.  The world is bigger than your front lawn.

so because you can't charge at home ,  EV are inconvenient ..  The world is bigger than your home ...

What does a bigger world have to do with an impractical situation?  Maybe in 10 years that will change and charging in apartments may be better that's good.  But some people don't have time to sit in a parking lot and charge a car.  Work school life. 

[coppercone2]

i wonder how much power theft will result from electric vehicle propagation.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

This is the way it is now, a taxi in Barcelona searching for a free spot to recharge his EV:

"The odissey to recharge my EV"