Author Topic: wood burners  (Read 8815 times)

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Offline WastelandTek

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2017, 07:23:26 pm »
I have been really interested in the homestead scale pellet mills, feed in all the chips off your land, get feedable pellets out.  In some areas it is sustainable, a couple acres in a temperate area produces a LOT of manageable fuels.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/182286174995?chn=ps&dispItem=1
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Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2017, 07:30:04 pm »
so a couple of acres per household ? the UK has i think 65m people, assume 4 per home, thats just over 15m households or 30m acres required, there are 640 acres in 1 square mile, so that is nearly 47'000 miles, or an area of about 220x220 miles, hm that's a decent chunk of UK land me thinks. we cant grow our own food and have to import it already.
 

Offline WastelandTek

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2017, 08:27:37 pm »
Population density is one of our more obvious challenges globally.  Largish chunks of the rural US have low density and high rates of biomass production.
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Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2017, 09:10:39 pm »
Here in Germany, modern wood fueled (wood chips, pellets) heating systems are outfitted with so called "Brennwerttechnik" that might translate to "condensing boiler technology". These systems are available from around 4kW to 20kW thermal output as stand-alone units and the condensing boiler recovers most of the heat from the exhaust gases. The final exhaust temperature is around 30-40°C.
I am not too deep into the matter myself, but maybe this gives you some interesting pointers :)
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Online tautech

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2017, 09:57:25 pm »
yes that is true I suppose hence chimney's need cleaning. Maybe there is a way of burning the tar off by injecting some sort of liquid and highly flammable fuel.... kind of reminds me of the soot burning off that diesel cars do (or are supposed to in the case of VW)
There's ways to manage chimney tar build up, an old wives tale is to burn your egg shells in the fire but of course your choice of fuel has the greatest effect on chimney build ups.
How you manage your fire can help, it's a good idea if you know the state of your chimney is to let her roar for short periods from time to time. AFAIK there's no other ways to keep them clean other than getting them swept on a regular basis. We run a small kitchen log fire continuously (~11 KW) with a wetback for ~4 months of the winter and the wood we mainly use is quite tarry so ongoing management of flue deposits is needed. This winter (nearly over) has been good, we've had more of a mix in the shed than normal but the flue will still need some decoking come summer.
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Offline eas

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2017, 06:04:38 pm »
When we bought our house, we had a chimney sweep come to clean the chimney and check it for safety. When he was done, he handed me a singled sided xeroxed page from a chimney sweep industry magazine that explained how to build the cleanest burning fire practical in a traditional fireplace.

It's simple, and it works. Rather than piling up your logs, putting the kindling and tinder below, and igniting them, you invert the arrangement. The principle is to have the hottest part of the fire at the top, so the hydrocarbons in the smoke are hot enough to combust fully. Radiant heat from the fire on top is enough to start decomposing the unburned wood below. A bottom up fire is great for making lots of smoke, by getting the wood on top hot enough to smoke, but not hot enough to burn well. The inverted fire isn't smokeless, but it is dramatically cleaner. Inverted fire arrangements also works well in an outdoor firepit.

The disadvantage is that its difficult to refuel and still maintain the clean burn. What I usually do is push any embers and partially burned wood to the side, put new logs on the bottom, and then shovel/move the remains of the old fire to the top of the pile.

Traditional open hearth fireplaces are horribly inefficient on three fronts: they don't burn the fuel efficiently, they don't recover heat from the fire efficiently and because they draw heated indoor air for combustion, and then a lot more of it in order to ensure a good strong draught. There is an old design called the Rumford that improves things, by, in part, reducing the amount of air pulled from the house to maintain a strong draught in the chimney. A glass door and an inlet for air from the outside reduces the heat pulled from the house further. Adding a heat exchanger improves heat recovery. Some people have built "dragon stoves" that are good enough at recovering heat that condensation and poor draught become a problem (much like an ultra-high efficiency gas furnace.

As for the rant about heating with wood not being "sustainable," or "renewable" the answer is simple: Language involves ambiguity, particularly when a single word substitutes for a much larger concept. Assuming that everyone else shares your definition is not wise. As is often the case, the robustness principle (aka Postel's Law) applies: "Be conservative in what you send, be liberal in what you accept."

To that end, in this context I'll suggest that for something to be "sustainable" or "renewable" it doesn't have to scale to support everyone in the world (or in a country), the status quo alternative certainly doesn't. In my urban neighborhood of mostly single-family detached homes, some people heat with kerosene, others with vegetable oil, others with heat pumps powered by electricity (mostly hydro, though our utility also uses as much wind as it can, and a lot of people have added PV solar) others with resistive electrical heat, and a few, with wood.

Don't get me wrong, I hate how insufferably smug and clueless some people can be once they start using some renewable energy that can't possibly scale to meet a significant portion of energy demand (like biodiesel made from food waste).

Still, its clear to me that burning wood or other biomass is viable enough in some regions as to be economically sustainable as well. I think most often, the feedstock are byproducts of other industries, primarily sawdust and wood scraps from lumber mills. On a small scale, people practice "coppicing" to improve sustainable yields from wood lots.
 

Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2017, 06:34:21 pm »
I am afraid that the only efficient chimney is a blocked up and unused one. I can't see how you can make a chimney more efficient unless you manage the exchange of heat with modern heat exchangers and ensure proper airing that does not take hot air back out of the room, put the wood on in any order you like, the vast amount of heat will still be going up the chimney. Yes your separate air intake is a good idea.

Indeed some methods will work well for some people but it sounds like woodburners are being pushed by my government with financial incentives, when clearly it is not suitable for wide scale deployment. We don't have the level of agriculture in this country to fuel these things on any reasonable scale and they won't make a big difference to our CO2 output so why is the government incentivizes them? it's clearly for the smug middle classes that can afford the investment up front and will then smugly claim their rebate while telling the poor people that they just need to work harder. We went through the same farce with the solar feed in tariff that see those who could afford the investment earning 4 times the rate that electricity is actually worth. Muggins is running solar on the cheap and not making a penny but doing it because it is the right thing to do.

I'm sure larger countries like america with a much lower population density can grow the biofuel they need and in that situation the wood/pellet burner makes sense, but in the UK for us all to run these systems we would cut down every tree quite quickly.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2017, 06:10:12 pm »
Old thread but interesting, so I thought I'd bump it.

There's been talk of tighter regulation of wood burners in the UK, as they emit more dangerous fumes than diesel and engines. Burning wood emits, various toxic and carcinogenic compounds, including: benzene, formaldehyde, acrolein and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.
https://www.epa.gov/burnwise/wood-smoke-and-your-health
 

Offline WastelandTek

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2017, 10:08:26 pm »
Old thread but interesting, so I thought I'd bump it.

There's been talk of tighter regulation of wood burners in the UK, as they emit more dangerous fumes than diesel and engines. Burning wood emits, various toxic and carcinogenic compounds, including: benzene, formaldehyde, acrolein and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.
https://www.epa.gov/burnwise/wood-smoke-and-your-health

Modern catalytic stoves burn very clean, but what we really need is fewer homo sapiens.
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Online Zero999

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2017, 01:58:46 pm »
Old thread but interesting, so I thought I'd bump it.

There's been talk of tighter regulation of wood burners in the UK, as they emit more dangerous fumes than diesel and engines. Burning wood emits, various toxic and carcinogenic compounds, including: benzene, formaldehyde, acrolein and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.
https://www.epa.gov/burnwise/wood-smoke-and-your-health

Modern catalytic stoves burn very clean, but what we really need is fewer homo sapiens.
I didn't know about catalytic stoves. They sound expensive. I thought the cleanest wood burning technology was gasifier. The wood is first superheated and emits gasses, which are burned very cleanly. No expensive catalysts are needed.

The trouble is in the UK, people tend to get crappy wood burners, which kick out all kind of crap.
 

Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2017, 02:38:01 pm »
a wood burner simply being a fireplace in a box
 

Online Zero999

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2017, 06:56:24 pm »
a wood burner simply being a fireplace in a box
That's the usual design, which is very inefficient.

Better, more efficient designs exist.


http://www.appropedia.org/Wood_gasification_stove
 

Offline Delta

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2017, 09:02:30 pm »
a wood burner simply being a fireplace in a box

You are being very dismissive of a proven and very mature technology.  Wood burning stoves as significantly more efficient at heating a room than an open fire.

Don't be such a technology snob!
 
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Offline Tomorokoshi

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2017, 06:53:16 am »
I've dabbled a bit with burning wood and pellet fuels. Here is my view of it:

Traditional fireplace
These are neutral at best for getting heat into the house. Negative with the door open and in colder weather.

Fireplace with woodburning insert
The range of inserts is fairly large. A good insert will restrict overall airflow through the firebox and otherwise limit leakage flow through the chimney. Pretty much requires a convection fan to circulate air around the firebox. Possible to heat a house with it. Need central air recirculation venting for best distribution. This will dry out the house. 4 cords of wood per year is possible in colder areas when used most of the time. It's a lot of work.

Woodburning stove (potbelly stove)
On par with the efficiency of a woodburning insert if constructed properly. Heating is radiant only due to lack of convection fan.

Pellet stove
Requires electrical power for basic functionality. Efficiency can be quite high. This is offset by increased fuel cost. Mechanical and electrical maintenance can also offset efficiency gains. Some are able to burn other fuels such as corn, be tuned to burn grass pellets, etc.
 

Offline John Heath

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2017, 08:55:02 am »
I heard of a unique approach to improving wood burning efficiency. Step one change you home address to a postal box for all important mail. Next answer all junk mail with interest saying you like their product and you want to make an order as soon as you have their literature , especially those high BTU magazines. With the fuel being delivered to your door step for free who cares what the wood burning efficiency is ?
 

Offline shakalnokturn

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Offline ikrase

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2018, 04:17:40 am »
Among the sorta crunchy / wilderness-farm-homestead community, a popular scheme is something called a "rocket mass heater". It starts with a "rocket stove" in which the fire is made to burn sideways, and convection draws the flames upward into the stove, developing a high enough temperature to burn up all the creosote (and also to annihilate any but the very best refractory material). Sounds like a jet taking off.

In the rocket mass heater, the flue gasses are then piped horizontally through a large heat storage mass -- traditionally this is adobe masonry in the shape of a bench, but can also be water or something. Alternatively the mass is sometimes used to store heat for hot water, with the actual output water going through a heat exchanger.

No moving parts, and usually uses small sticks and kindling but people have made them pellet-fueled. With a combination of a servo-controlled air damper, a way to dispense chips/pellets, and a blower to get the fire going sideways, I can imagine you might pull something off.


(Edit: I see the previous poster mentioned rocket stoves)
 

Offline james_s

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2018, 06:42:53 am »
A guy I know in England built a woodburning boiler that uses a small firebox with a forced air induction fan. It burns a relatively small fire at high temperature, resulting in relatively complete and clean combustion, heating a large water jacket around the unit. The water is circulated through radiators to heat the house. Additionally there's a conventional gas fired boiler connected to the system so it isn't necessary to fire the wood boiler all the time, it's a supplementary heat source that can be loaded with scrap fuel whenever it is available.
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2018, 07:07:07 pm »
Hello,

Wood burning can be very efficient, with wood gasification, and a second flame.
I have a water heating stove like this one :http://www.kuenzel.de/produkte/kamin-holzvergaserkessel-hv-w/
It's very efficient, about 92% efficiency, and it burns very very clean, because it's always at full power, so it doesn't smolder, and emits less particles and NOx

70-80% of the heat goes into the water side, so it dosn't heat up the room too much.
Also, it's combined with a 1500 liter water storage, so it can run full power for many hours, and we get heat for two days.

Some wood burners are even more efficient, up to 115% with condensation
(And just to clarify, no, it's not overunity, it's just that it condenses water back in the exaust, and gets the latent vaporisation heat, which is not counted into the normal wood burning efficiency)

Conclusion : get a modern wood burning system, with good efficiency, and always use it at full power.

Offline WastelandTek

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2018, 08:35:38 pm »
Hello,

Wood burning can be very efficient, with wood gasification, and a second flame.
I have a water heating stove like this one :http://www.kuenzel.de/produkte/kamin-holzvergaserkessel-hv-w/


thanks for the link, that looks great!

I wish they had translated versions of their site...no spreken
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 08:37:31 pm by WastelandTek »
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Offline f4eru

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Re: wood burners
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2018, 08:36:44 am »
Yes, Künzel does not seem interested in selling outside the german speaking zone.
I got one in France though.

Just for info, Germany is at top of technology for efficient wood burners, because the law mandates clean burning, even old ones have to be retrofitted now.


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