Author Topic: Fluke 87V  (Read 1656 times)

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Offline Christopher

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Fluke 87V
« on: March 04, 2018, 12:45:56 am »
So someone at work (not me!) blew up a Fluke 87V by putting too many DC Volts into it. (we design HV power supplies)
The DMM was new 9 months ago, too!
I've been aloud to take it as scrap ;-)

Symptoms: low voltage reading. Put 1V in, read 0.7V.
Failure mode: 3 MOVs in series, one is short.
Fix: remove MOVs and tried all (<60V) ranges again. All OK.

So I am looking for some replacement MOVs, I have not much information but have searched already with not much luck.

Marking "K575", EPCOS I think. See pictures.

Only requirement is I must be able to get small QTYs, and be from somewhere easy like Farnell, RS, eBay etc


Cheers for your help!!
 

Offline saturation

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Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline don.r

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2018, 04:39:42 am »
Not the most robust meters for HV work, as joe has shown us.
Shippers: for the love of Pete and all that is holy, STOP USING UPS INTERNATIONAL!
 

Offline Christopher

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2018, 07:21:08 am »
Not the most robust meters for HV work, as joe has shown us.
Yeah, but normally on HV at work we use dividers that divide 30kV+ down to a few volts so it doesn't matter too much :-)
 

Offline don.r

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2018, 07:33:30 am »
Not the most robust meters for HV work, as joe has shown us.
Yeah, but normally on HV at work we use dividers that divide 30kV+ down to a few volts so it doesn't matter too much :-)

Fair enough. TBH, I don't think any DMM would survive 30kV. At least the MOVs saved the rest of the meter. I think joe showed the 87V failing at a few kV which is dismal but not unexpected for such an antiquated design.
Shippers: for the love of Pete and all that is holy, STOP USING UPS INTERNATIONAL!
 

Offline Christopher

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2018, 08:05:41 am »
Not the most robust meters for HV work, as joe has shown us.
Yeah, but normally on HV at work we use dividers that divide 30kV+ down to a few volts so it doesn't matter too much :-)

Fair enough. TBH, I don't think any DMM would survive 30kV. At least the MOVs saved the rest of the meter. I think joe showed the 87V failing at a few kV which is dismal but not unexpected for such an antiquated design.
Just to confirm, I think this was only a bit above a kV, just the case someone winding the wick up a bit too high by mistake....
But hey, no real damage done, just a couple of MOVs and I'm now a multimeter up. Hell i may even buy the guy a couple of beers ;-)
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2018, 12:48:32 pm »
Too funny, I am right now in the process of tracing out the front end of an 87V. 

Just an FYI, there are four diodes located next to the MOVs.  I test at fairly low energy levels and with all the series resistance, have yet to damaged a MOV with my testing.  With the 87V it's been the high speed clamps that are made up of these diodes.  You may want to have a quick look.   Good luck.  Hope you are able to repair it. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline don.r

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2018, 01:02:16 pm »
"And, as if on cue, here comes the sheriff"....  ;D
Shippers: for the love of Pete and all that is holy, STOP USING UPS INTERNATIONAL!
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2018, 01:43:42 pm »
Too funny, I am right now in the process of tracing out the front end of an 87V. 

Just an FYI, there are four diodes located next to the MOVs.  I test at fairly low energy levels and with all the series resistance, have yet to damaged a MOV with my testing.  With the 87V it's been the high speed clamps that are made up of these diodes.  You may want to have a quick look.   Good luck.  Hope you are able to repair it.

I think it's the same as the 27 input circuit.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2018, 01:52:11 pm »
Too funny, I am right now in the process of tracing out the front end of an 87V. 

Just an FYI, there are four diodes located next to the MOVs.  I test at fairly low energy levels and with all the series resistance, have yet to damaged a MOV with my testing.  With the 87V it's been the high speed clamps that are made up of these diodes.  You may want to have a quick look.   Good luck.  Hope you are able to repair it.
I think it's the same as the 27 input circuit.
Doesn't appear to be even close. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2018, 01:55:32 am »
Too funny, I am right now in the process of tracing out the front end of an 87V. 

Just an FYI, there are four diodes located next to the MOVs.  I test at fairly low energy levels and with all the series resistance, have yet to damaged a MOV with my testing.  With the 87V it's been the high speed clamps that are made up of these diodes.  You may want to have a quick look.   Good luck.  Hope you are able to repair it.
I think it's the same as the 27 input circuit.
Doesn't appear to be even close.
No idea how close it is, but here's the service manual for the original 87: http://materiel-physique.ens-lyon.fr/BDD/job/BDD/Notices/N069-020.pdf

Page 2-3 describes the input protection and page 5-14 has the schematic.
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2018, 02:59:27 am »
Too funny, I am right now in the process of tracing out the front end of an 87V. 

Just an FYI, there are four diodes located next to the MOVs.  I test at fairly low energy levels and with all the series resistance, have yet to damaged a MOV with my testing.  With the 87V it's been the high speed clamps that are made up of these diodes.  You may want to have a quick look.   Good luck.  Hope you are able to repair it.
I think it's the same as the 27 input circuit.
Doesn't appear to be even close.
No idea how close it is, but here's the service manual for the original 87: http://materiel-physique.ens-lyon.fr/BDD/job/BDD/Notices/N069-020.pdf

Page 2-3 describes the input protection and page 5-14 has the schematic.
I posted a video yesterday where I had traced out parts of the front end of the 87V.  If you look at 5-14 (showing the front end of the 87), note CR8 in series with CR7 then returning to the common through Q1.  It's similar.  They are using the BAV99 rather than the BAV199.  Maybe they were having too many returns and wanted to beef it up a bit.  The 87V I suspect used a TVS rather than Q1 for the return.   They also leverage the dual pack diodes in the 87V.   The 87 used a combination of a GDT and MOVs.   The 87V looks like it will clamp at a lower voltage.  Again, maybe an attempt to make the design more robust.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Christopher

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2018, 04:46:41 am »
awesome joe !

i'd be interested in seeing that frontend cct. We use a lot of Keithly 2002 and 2100s and they all seem to blow up after overloads on the mA jack and sometimes the V jack. this is good for me as they are normally and easy repair.

Still not sourced a replacement MOV. anything i should take into account? I think they are 575V MOVs, just really tiny....
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2018, 10:09:01 am »

I posted a video yesterday where I had traced out parts of the front end of the 87V.  If you look at 5-14 (showing the front end of the 87), note CR8 in series with CR7 then returning to the common through Q1.  It's similar.  They are using the BAV99 rather than the BAV199.  Maybe they were having too many returns and wanted to beef it up a bit.  The 87V I suspect used a TVS rather than Q1 for the return.   They also leverage the dual pack diodes in the 87V.   The 87 used a combination of a GDT and MOVs.   The 87V looks like it will clamp at a lower voltage.  Again, maybe an attempt to make the design more robust.

With the protection circuit, no component changes etc. as it invalidates your 61010 approval. Fluke would've beefed it up and re-tested, as required for that standard.


No one has found that exact MOV used in Fluke multimeters?
Mouser lists it but only with a recalibration service.

From old service manuals: Fluke 706838 "Varistor 430V 1mA +/-10%; V264LAX1398"
Epcos/TDK varistors rated 430VDC 1mA are 275VAC, which is close to 264V.

But newer Fluke multimeters have Epcos S05K575 which is a custom part. GW121 uses it too, on the schematic I found.

More people looking for the part:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/field-failure-of-an-fluke-87v
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fixing-a-fluke-87v
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/fluke-289-repair
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2018, 11:01:47 am »
awesome joe !

i'd be interested in seeing that frontend cct. We use a lot of Keithly 2002 and 2100s and they all seem to blow up after overloads on the mA jack and sometimes the V jack. this is good for me as they are normally and easy repair.

Still not sourced a replacement MOV. anything i should take into account? I think they are 575V MOVs, just really tiny....
You can skip to the end of that video to see what bits I traced out on the circuit.   Any idea what levels it was exposed to?   Or won't the person who did it say?  lol.      I swear, it was just sitting on the table and it died...   
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Christopher

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2018, 07:39:50 am »
But newer Fluke multimeters have Epcos S05K575 which is a custom part. GW121 uses it too, on the schematic I found.

Very interesting that it's in the GW121............
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2018, 11:25:56 am »
Some parts designed to just pass regulatory safety tests, to keep size down. Fluke uses it in many of their multimeters.

No Epcos standard offerings are that small (5mm) at that high voltage; choice is 550VAC/10mm or 460VAC/5mm.
S05K575 specs:
AC voltage 575VAC
DC voltage 785VDC
8/20usec surge 400A
Wmax 22J
Disk 5mm
 

Offline Christopher

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2018, 07:50:12 am »
Here's some pics of another blown 87V....

I was hoping to get the mov out of it...... :-)

https://imgur.com/a/dPUAn
 
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Offline imidis

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2018, 07:57:14 am »
I think she's dead jim.
Gone for good
 

Online coromonadalix

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2018, 09:34:46 am »
no hes giving everything is got captain
 

Offline saturation

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2018, 04:05:26 am »
How did this happen?

Here's some pics of another blown 87V....

I was hoping to get the mov out of it...... :-)

https://imgur.com/a/dPUAn
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2018, 04:27:43 am »
How did this happen?

Here's some pics of another blown 87V....

I was hoping to get the mov out of it...... :-)

https://imgur.com/a/dPUAn

I would have like to have added those pictures  to the intro video along with the others I had found.  As I understood it,
Quote
Yes I doubt there is a single 87V owner ever who has seen their meter die due to any ESD or pulse overload etc.
  ... 
Quote
Sure, if a meter is failing ESD testing or something that could potentially be common place, then that may be a cause for concern, but even the Fluke 87V has shown no sign of doing that in practice for the 13 years it's been released as the V series, apart from Joe's test.


I too would like to know more about what happened. 

How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline giosif

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Re: Fluke 87V
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2018, 08:44:15 am »
How did this happen?

One of the labels on the meter reads "Do not remove - Property of Spellman High Voltage".
Hmm....
 
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