How do people pack delicate instruments properly?

[Cerebus]

The most common cause of condensation is moving a parcel from a very warm to a very cold environment, or vice versa.

Don't forget that anything that goes by air freight has a fair chance of being in an unpressurised, cold cargo hold. It's worth remembering both of those parameters if they might affect something you're shipping via air.

[tggzzz]

In order to provide some protection to front-panel controls during shipping, I'm considering making a wooden laser-cut cover out of 5mm laser birch plywood. For some instruments the box could also protect the controls during maintenance.

Has anyone any experience of that, and would it be useful in this case and/or for other people?

The kind of thing I have in mind is a conventional 5-sided notched box similar to http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:255013 That would slip round the edge of a front panel. Extra pieces or wood would form an internal shelf/lip to stop it sliding too far. The cross section would be something like this:

 *            *
 *            *
W*            *W
W**************W
WW   C  C  C  WW
W    C     C   W
W              W
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

where W is the wooden box, * is the instrument's metal frame and C are front panel controls.

[bitseeker]

That should work fine, tggzzz. For the stop, if you're not expecting it to incur too much frontal impact, you could attach cleats to the inside of the cover. Otherwise, make the long sides of the cover slightly shorter, use thicker wood for the two short sides, and rabbit the edges of the short sides so that the face of the instrument fits against it, thusly:


 |            |
 |            |
W|            |W
W+------------+W
WW   C  C  C  WW
WW   C     C  WW
WW            WW
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

[tggzzz]

I'd thought of routing/rabbiting the sides as you suggest, but I can't do that on a laser cutter.
I do have a suitable router, but I'd still have to fix the 5 pieces of wood together, strongly.
The laser cutter castellated joints are trivial to make, and fixing the side fillets could be made simple and quick.
So it is pretty evenly balanced.

Any "frontal impact" will be determined by any "union lifts", so I wouldn't want to trust cleats!

Thanks for your thoughts.

[bitseeker]

Yeah, not as many options with laser-only. Are you going to make some? If so, be sure to post some pics.

[Cubdriver]

Off the cuff it sounds like a good idea.  But...  My concern would be that the wood bearing on the periphery of the faceplate would abrade and damage the finish due to the pressure and vibration during shipment.

How difficult is it to program the laser cutter you're talking about, and could it cut foam sheets like ethafoam?  If not difficult to program and able to cut the foam, I'd say the best bet would be to make a foam faceplate with clearance holes for all the controls.  This would spread any pressure out over a much larger area and still protect the controls.

-Pat

[tggzzz]

Off the cuff it sounds like a good idea.  But...  My concern would be that the wood bearing on the periphery of the faceplate would abrade and damage the finish due to the pressure and vibration during shipment.

How difficult is it to program the laser cutter you're talking about, and could it cut foam sheets like ethafoam?  If not difficult to program and able to cut the foam, I'd say the best bet would be to make a foam faceplate with clearance holes for all the controls.  This would spread any pressure out over a much larger area and still protect the controls.

Useful points, and a thin layer of foam might be sensible. That might also be useful by creating a gentle interference fit, so that the cover stays where you want it. Mind you most of the scope covers fall off since they have a clip missing!

OTOH, the laser birch isn't a hard material, and the scopes I'm thinking of have an uncoloured aluminium rim in the relevant position, so abrasion probably isn't a significant problem.

Programming a cutter is trivial; I use OpenSCAD and variants, but there are many alternatives. Unfortunately the real problem is that materials are limited because cutters produce combustion products which can gum up the lens or be hazardous. One plastic, for example, produces HCl; others are more subtly dangerous. Hence I wouldn't be able to laser cut the foam.

[bitseeker]

I would use felt- or foam-backed tape on the lid along the region between it and the instrument. Thin foam wrap/bags often used for chinaware and other fragile goods could also work to provide abrasion protection.

[vk6zgo]

I'd thought of routing/rabbiting the sides as you suggest, but I can't do that on a laser cutter.
I do have a suitable router, but I'd still have to fix the 5 pieces of wood together, strongly.
The laser cutter castellated joints are trivial to make, and fixing the side fillets could be made simple and quick.
So it is pretty evenly balanced.

Any "frontal impact" will be determined by any "union lifts", so I wouldn't want to trust cleats!

Thanks for your thoughts.

I don't think it's the "union lifts" you need to worry about---union rules probably specify two people.
It's the solitary "macho man" who overestimates his capacity & drops the box the last few inches,or sometimes, all the way.

[jh15]

Why not just some kind of honeycomb cardboard. The knobs could displace partitions. As I type was thinking of egg carton fibrus stuff.

Or, Tek stuff I received in the 80's like the tek 503 series scope I called a Poodle Pack. Little scope was secured in cardboard shell with 6 squares of foam glued to outside.

I almost want to say disregard this letter as I am at a loss to describe further.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Insurance.  Have had reasonably packed stuff subject to unreasonable level of damage. 

[tggzzz]

Insurance.  Have had reasonably packed stuff subject to unreasonable level of damage.

Which shipper will insure the glass in the CRT?

[Cubdriver]

Well, here's one way NOT to do it!! 

I recently won this on the 'bay, it's a fairly rare (as in I've found NOTHING about it online thus far) early digital voltmeter.  It was sold as non-working for restoration, and I knew from the photos in the listing that it was in somewhat less than pristine condition.  It appeared on my doorstep today, and I was shocked.  It was literally wrapped in hot-melt glued cardboard with a few (ok, five) mickey-moused cardboard spacers between the chassis and the side walls.  The bottom was on the bottom of the carton.  The top was the few layers of cardboard folded to form the carton and glued up.   

Thankfully the thing is built like a tank, and doesn't appear to have suffered fatal damage during its journey.  Octal based AC choppers (one on each side) had gotten loose from their sockets and were bouncing around a bit, and two of the stepper relays are loose as well (though they appear to have been already free of their mounts based on the auction photos); they seem to have done a fine job of reducing the hardened foam in their compartment to dust that's spread everywhere.

I have to say that I'm doubly shocked - once at how poorly it was packed, and again at how well overall it survived being shipped that way.

Custom made for exact fit!


Well padded:


Energy absorbing spacers to prevent contact with carton sides:




Model 3 Lab Cat is not pleased with the packaging:


This one's going to be quite a challenge to resurrect.  I plan to do more cleaning and get additional photos of the instrument up in a separate thread later.

Other photos here:
https://pmanning.smugmug.com/Electronics/Electro-Instruments-NLS-edge

 

-Pat

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Insurance.  Have had reasonably packed stuff subject to unreasonable level of damage.

Which shipper will insure the glass in the CRT?

I think most will...but when you send, have them package it for you..."inadequate" packaging is probably the number one reason for insurance denial. If buying from someone else, do it on a good credit card (good credit cards have secondary insurance/warranty as a fall back).

[dohyun]

One way of packing I've seen used more lately (for when there is no existing box-it-came-in and for custom devices) is putting large bags around the device and spray-foaming into the bag (the kind which hardens into a somewhat flexible yet solid state) and pretty much custom molding padding around the entire device.

My guess is the spray foam stuff would be reasonable inexpensive as would the bags.

[tggzzz]

One way of packing I've seen used more lately (for when there is no existing box-it-came-in and for custom devices) is putting large bags around the device and spray-foaming into the bag (the kind which hardens into a somewhat flexible yet solid state) and pretty much custom molding padding around the entire device.

My guess is the spray foam stuff would be reasonable inexpensive as would the bags.

You can get bags pre-filled with two mixable components, e.g. http://www.packsend.co.uk/packing-solutions/foam-in-place/ I wouldn't call them cheap, but clearly that a relative!

The precise type of foam and the amount sprayed in would be important. If you spray in too much it would be too dense and transmit shocks too easily.

Some cheap foams, notably the urethane used for DIY jobs around the house, is very sticky and messy, and could easily escape into the wrong place. It also tends to be rather inflexible and/or crush once. Once crushed, anything inside would rattle around which is generally thought to be A Bad Thing.

As with many things, the details matter and once you have experience you can get the details right. I don't have experience so I have to rely on bulletproof belt-and-braces techniques

[tggzzz]

Insurance.  Have had reasonably packed stuff subject to unreasonable level of damage.

Which shipper will insure the glass in the CRT?

I think most will...but when you send, have them package it for you..."inadequate" packaging is probably the number one reason for insurance denial. If buying from someone else, do it on a good credit card (good credit cards have secondary insurance/warranty as a fall back).

I've heard otherwise about shippers/glass, but I haven't confirmed it myself.

The trouble with "inadequate packaging" is that it is an easy claim for the shippers to make and very difficult to counter, especially if they don't specify what is "adequate"! As you imply, they couldn't use the excuse if they packaged it themselves.

As for packing glass, I believe it would be relatively easy to protect individual pieces of glass, especially when they are directly encased in foam-in-place style expanding foam which would tend to distribute shocks across the entire surface. I'm less sure about what would happen to a piece of glass like a CRT that is held inside a metal frame, since shocks would be concentrated at the fixings.

I've never had to make an insurance claim on a credit card, so I've no idea how hard they would wriggle. OTOH I have had insurance companies wriggle in other cases, fortunately unsuccessfully!

[ludzinc]

I used to have to send PC towers to remote sites.

I quickly learnt that sending it in the box it came in, wasn't good enough!

I used to put it in it's original box, wrap that in about half a dozen layers of bubble wrap, and then box all that up in a heavy duty corrugated box.

Which a forklift tine went through like a hot knife through butter....

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Insurance.  Have had reasonably packed stuff subject to unreasonable level of damage.

Which shipper will insure the glass in the CRT?

I think most will...but when you send, have them package it for you..."inadequate" packaging is probably the number one reason for insurance denial. If buying from someone else, do it on a good credit card (good credit cards have secondary insurance/warranty as a fall back).

I've heard otherwise about shippers/glass, but I haven't confirmed it myself.

The trouble with "inadequate packaging" is that it is an easy claim for the shippers to make and very difficult to counter, especially if they don't specify what is "adequate"! As you imply, they couldn't use the excuse if they packaged it themselves.

As for packing glass, I believe it would be relatively easy to protect individual pieces of glass, especially when they are directly encased in foam-in-place style expanding foam which would tend to distribute shocks across the entire surface. I'm less sure about what would happen to a piece of glass like a CRT that is held inside a metal frame, since shocks would be concentrated at the fixings.

I've never had to make an insurance claim on a credit card, so I've no idea how hard they would wriggle. OTOH I have had insurance companies wriggle in other cases, fortunately unsuccessfully!

Yep "inadequate" packaging is easy way out for them... except when they package it 

Glassware/art stuff they typically wont insure, part of equipment I think they will.

I've never actually tried doing insurance thru my credit card, just know it's there from reading the card terms, sounded like good coverage...has claims up to 10k...not only insurance, they will also warranty items for 1-2 years.  I think they want you to file with whoever else you can first though, so more like secondary/fallback insurance.

The expanded foam in a bag packing... is awesome, outside of a deep puncture...the stuff i've had sent to me was super secure (both padding and immobilization)

[Assafl]

Yep "inadequate" packaging is easy way out for them... except when they package it 

Glassware/art stuff they typically wont insure, part of equipment I think they will.

From experience: Art glass and other art (e.g. original artwork) requires either a double box with foam in between the layers; or a wooden create. Wooden crates would typically have art friendly paper (or cloth), corner plastic molds, and cardboard to immobilize the artwork. Glass art has to be firmly supported. When properly cased, they can be insured using standard shippers. Expensive packing though.

Above a certain size (and value) only freight shipping is possible. As an example, top end espresso machines are delicate and can only be shipped freight anchored to a palate. The reason being that (Unlike most TME) once dropped the chassis will deform (mainly due to components like a heavy motor and pump, boilers and heaters).   
 

[Cubdriver]

I recently returned from a trip to California, and while out there managed to pack up and ship some of my goodies (4 instruments totaling about 200 lbs) home.  This time, I took photos while packing, and more of the unboxing.  Some will be posted here, but since there are 73 images total of the two packages here is the link to the gallery with the captioned images in it:
https://pmanning.smugmug.com/Electronics/Packing-heavy-instruments-for

The cabinets were two different sizes, with two instruments in each size, so each box held two nearly identically sized devices.  This made packing much easier.  Each of the units weighed somewhere between about 40 and 55 lbs, so none of them was particularly lightweight.

The boxes used were purchased at the local FedEx shipping center and were 24 x 24 x 24" double-walled cubes.  They cost about $12/each.  The foam used was intended for household insulation purposes, and came from the local Home Depot (a big-box building supply store for those not in the US).  The sheets are supplied in 4 x 8 foot panels, and I get 1 and 2" thick ones for shipping things.  They have a clear plastic overlay on one side and an aluminized plastic overlay on the other, with Styrofoam sandwiched in between.  (I mentioned them earlier in this thread.)  The 1" thick ones are around $11 a pop, and the 2" ones about double that.

The packing procedure I've settled on is to get a box that is ideally 4" larger inside than what I'm shipping, and basically construct a styrofoam box inside the main shipping carton.  Multiple instruments are piled one atop the other with a 1" Styrofoam divider sheet between them, and smaller blocks are placed as needed to fill gaps between front panels and carton walls, with efforts mate to keep knobs, buttons and display windows/screens in free air with nothing to bear on them.  In this instance, two of the instruments had long cabinets that only permitted 1" foam between their ends and the carton walls, but with some additional bracing from flat cardboard to spread the forces on the foam that would otherwise be concentrated by handles and the rear perimeter of the enclosure, I felt in this case that things would be safe enough with the smaller space.  Additionally, as these 2 foot high cartons were much taller than needed for the stacked cabinets, their height was cut down as needed.

The first step was to determine the necessary carton height.  This was done by adding 5 inches to the stacked instrument height. (2" of foam on the bottom, 1" between and 2" on top, plus the total device height.)  After determining this, I cut the carton down - measure and mark the corners to the new, shorter height, then cut out the excess cardboard.  Lightly score along the new bend line and fold the flaps to close the carton.  I put the cut side on the bottom, as the extra material strengthens it and I figure it's better on the bottom than the top (not that the carton stays upright in shipping, but on the off chance that it might, it can't hurt...)  The 'inner' flaps are left at full length, and the 'outer' ones cut where they meet in the center to mate cleanly.  The cut off pieces were later used to help prevent the instrument handles from crushing the foam.

Once the box has been sized and the bottom sealed, a piece of 2" thick foam sized to fit snugly inside was placed flat on the bottom.  The first instrument was then placed in the center of the foam, and walls built around it inward from the carton sides.  In the first one, I made the side walls full height (box height minus the 4" total of the top and bottom foam pieces), whereas in the second I made them the same height as the instrument, forming a platform that the second device then rested on.  I like the second iteration better as the instrument-height foam pieces can be cut on the bandsaw while the double height ones are too wide and must be cut with the razor knife.  Pieces should be cut so as to snugly line the inside of the carton, then any gaps may be filled with smaller blocks.  Once everything is immobilized, the divider sheet (1" foam) is cut to size and put on top of the lower instrument, the second put in the box and the process repeated.  Finally, the top foam piece is put into place and the carton sealed up.

Following are some of the pictures taken as things were packed up.  The first few showing the measurement and the box cutting were from the second pair that were packed up (I neglected to take photos of this when doing the first ones).  All photos are in the gallery linked to earlier in the post.

Measuring height:


Marking box:


Cut down box:


Instrument on foam in box:


Gaps around cabinet being filled in:


Spacer blocks threaded in between knobs and switches to fill gap between front panel and wall:


Divider layer:


Second instrument in box with foam around it:


Top layer of foam:


-Pat

[bitseeker]

Excellent work, Pat. Very thorough.

[Cubdriver]

Thanks!  The first totaled 107 lbs and the second 90.  I need to find lighter crap to buy!! 

-Pat

[bitseeker]

Or a second house in California.

[tggzzz]

I recently returned from a trip to California, and while out there managed to pack up and ship some of my goodies (4 instruments totaling about 200 lbs) home.  This time, I took photos while packing, and more of the unboxing.  Some will be posted here, but since there are 73 images total of the two packages here is the link to the gallery with the captioned images in it:
https://pmanning.smugmug.com/Electronics/Packing-heavy-instruments-for

Thanks. Most helpful.

Another data point. I've recently received a vintage Mac Plus that the kind sender packed in accordance with my wishes - which weren't too different from your technique.

• The Mac Plus was tightly wrapped in 4 layers of bubble wrap.
• A large shipping cardboard box was lined with foam polystyrene (styrofoam) ~2cm thick.
• There were 2" gaps between the foam polystyrene all round the The Mac+bubblewrap; these gaps were partially filled with foam, like your spacers

It arrived safely, although I would have preferred the spacers to be held in position.

The major difference between your scheme and the one that currently interests me (oscilloscopes) is that with scopes there are no useful gaps between the front-panel keys into which the spacers could be located. I would have to rely either on the bubble wrap or on fabricating a protective shield. The latter ought to be easy since I have access to a laser cutter.