Author Topic: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors  (Read 21177 times)

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Offline dexters_labTopic starter

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Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« on: May 18, 2016, 09:28:18 pm »
i recently picked up a Quantel Paintbox system that is non-functional and i'm looking to fix it up

the paintbox is a broadcast tv / video graphical painting, effects and animation system used worldwide in the 80s and right through the 90s

the unit i have is called Harriet and dates from 1989 from their 2nd generation v-series of hardware, which is basically a load of custom asics, a crazy amount of ram and a motorola 68010, it powers up and boots into a ROM based monitor which is only accessible from a rs232 port, from there it reports a bus error and doesn't boot the main software on the hard disk

before i start getting into this properly, is there anyone out there with any kind of hardware docs for the paintbox? i know it's a rare beast so this is a long shot but you never know!
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 01:06:48 pm by dexters_lab »
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2016, 04:48:46 am »
Wow. I was working at Fairlight Instruments on their vastly cruder 'Computer Video Instrument' at that time, and was in awe of the Quantel Harry. Saw one in operation at a trade show. How did you get it?
Whether I ever obtained any service info on the Harry series, I can't recall. It's unlikely but faintly possible. Will have a look.
Pester me if I don't get back with a yes or no in a couple of days.

The sad thing is, when Fairlight were looking into doing something better than their CVI, I did a system plan for a video processing 'leggo blocks' architecture, that would have slain both the Harry and a lot of other products at that time. Unfortunately the Fairlight management couldn't grok it. Thought it was 'too complicated' - but really it was much simpler than Harry and other ideas that had been suggested. I just made the mistake of trying to present too many different possible configurations to target different markets with no extra manufacturing cost. Just plug the modules together... They were all Audio Synth guys, and it confused them.
With a good product like that, at that time, the company might still be around. Looking at you, Peter Vogel.

Faintly related & amusing. When Fairlight was going into receivership, the office pot plants were given to any staff who wanted them. Better than leaving them to die, unwatered. I got a small palm in a pot, about 3 feet high.
Pic is that palm in my back yard today. The building adjacent is two stories high.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 04:55:55 am by TerraHertz »
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Offline dexters_labTopic starter

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2016, 06:26:14 am »
one of my youtube viewers offered it to me and we did a swap, he took the NAC HSV-400 high speed camera i looked at a month or so back and i had the Quantel

i think Harry is the model down from Harriet it has everything sans the ramcorder, but i'm not sure. There is so little info on them it's really hard to know!

The insides seem to be modular, so the higher models just get more cards plugged into them but i also think there were many options which were just software

i have made a little progress with it, i'll make another post about it and start documenting

Offline Dubbie

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2016, 02:54:03 am »
I remember using one of these back around '99. Why are you bothering to fix it? Just for the fun of it? It would be worse than useless these days.


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Offline dexters_labTopic starter

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2016, 08:20:03 am »
yea, just fixing it for fun

also would be nice to play around with it, show people what it can and can't do (if i can get it working that is!)

i guess the hardware had changed again by the time you were using the paintbox, don't suppose you can remember any details about the one you used can you?


Offline Dubbie

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2016, 10:04:44 am »
don't suppose you can remember any details about the one you used can you?
Sorry any knowledge I may have had is well lost to the mists of time!
 

Offline dexters_labTopic starter

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2016, 01:57:13 pm »
so i have been doing a little more work on this trying to get to grips with it

i'm going to detail what i do know below, but if anyone has any ideas or suggestions as to where to start with the bus error tracing that would help enormously. I have tried to get schematics but have been told i can't have them due to NDA nonsense.

The hardware is 6 boards that plug into a backplane, looks like VME to me, but i don't know if it follows the spec. One board is the CPU, the other 5 are 'PERSP', 'VIDEO IN', 'VIDEO OUT', 'MAIN STORE 2' & 'DISC STORE 2'. All cards date from around 1989.

So if i concentrate on the CPU board as it's more probable the fault lies on this board than the others.

It's motorola 68k architecture, using a 68010 CPU and a 68450 DMA controller clocked at 10mhz from a 40mhz oscillator. ROM is a pair of 27C512 EPROMs, RAM is 32 of Fujitsu MB814100-80 (4mbit by 1 bit), there are also two battery backed SRAMs providing 4kbyte of NVRAM (the batteries are flat and they are blank), I/O is provided by two MC68681P Dual UARTs, MC68901 MFP and two WD3393 SCSI controllers.

There is a debug serial port on the board and a hex display indicator.

When powered the system would normally boot into the ROMs which would bootstrap the main OS from the SCSI hard disk, this of course doesn't happen but instead it drops into the ROM debug monitor and reports a Bus Error to the output.

The ROM monitor is accessible from a serial port at 19200/8/N/1, it has a small menu where you can query and write memory locations, manually boot the system, jump and execute code in rom or ram and a few other tasks. I'm connected to this through a USB -> Serial adaptor.

What I Do Know:
Checked the easy stuff, PSU voltages, reseated ICs & the boards, checked the PCB fuses, physical damage etc

The machine was booting while in the possession of the previous owner, the OS was reporting the SRAM/NVRAM was invalid so the unit was opened, it was after this point it started showing the bus error.

The ROM code starts at 0x000000, initialises and tests RAM and does a bit of reading and writing of presumably hardware registers before it begins the boot process, it's in this stage it bus errors which is about 100ms from the release of the reset pin on the CPU.

Manually navigating around memory, i can access any part of the ROM, various (large) parts of the 24bit address space / RAM generate bus errors if i attempt to read them but it's always the same locations whenever it's powered on. They don't randomly move about each time it's powered.

I do have partial disassembly of the ROMs thanks to a kind YouTube viewer.

I have checked the bus error circuit and it does seem to be working properly, it uses a counter which is continually reset by valid activity. Without any activity one of the output stages asserts the BERR pin on the CPU which then traps into the ROM and the bus error is reported.

Unfortunately i don't have a logic analyser, only a couple of scopes

any thoughts on how i should proceed?

Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2016, 02:16:15 pm »
What happens if you try to boot it after removing (some of) the other boards?

What exactly does the bus error circuit do, can it be fooled into thinking everyting is fine/can you isolate the BERR pin?

I know you will probably not get a working system by defeating the bus error logic but it could maybe tell you a bit more about what's going on.

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Offline dexters_labTopic starter

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2016, 02:43:02 pm »
What happens if you try to boot it after removing (some of) the other boards?

i took out all the other boards and get the same results

Quote
What exactly does the bus error circuit do, can it be fooled into thinking everyting is fine/can you isolate the BERR pin?

 it flags a pin on the CPU called BERR if the bus hangs up for some reason, this makes the CPU abort and jump to an exception vector, which is in ROM.

I have tried isolating BERR but the system just hangs up, it doesn't do anything at all... which is not surprising.

Quote
I know you will probably not get a working system by defeating the bus error logic but it could maybe tell you a bit more about what's going on.

indeed, it was the first thing i thought of checking too, if the bus error was maybe a false positive. But no, it seems to be real

Offline Tomorokoshi

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2016, 05:22:35 pm »
Manuals are here:
http://www.nxp.com/search?client=nxp_search_all_results&site=nxp_en&proxystylesheet=nxp_search_style_fe&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&ud=1&output=xml_no_dtd&exclude_apps=1&callback=ss_show&lang_cd=en&filter=0&getfields=*&baseUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nxp.com%2Fwebapp&SEARCH_OPERATOR=Contains&attempt=-1&rc=1&hl=en&dnavs=&q=68010

The last one is the "MC68000UM.pdf" users manual. Part 5.4 through 5.6 has information on the Bus Error.

Is any address information provided in the monitor?

Generally the bus error is a timeout if an external device did not assert *DTACK. There are a couple common ways for *DTACK to be asserted:

1. By address decoder logic that asserts the *CS to something.
2. By logic in a peripheral that needs time to do processing after being selected by its *CS.

*BERR might be asserted by either some kind of watchdog circuit or by some kind of error detection circuit. With 2 banks of 16 Zig-Zag memories I'm guessing that it does not have a parity bit for memory.

Are those ST parts on the processor board battery-backed SRAM?

 

Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2016, 06:08:25 pm »
After a BERR the stack should contain the PC and the offending address, but even if you can dump the stack it will not tell you a lot without at least a memory map of the thing or many hours with IDA and the ROM dump. On the other hand you say that the previous owner opened it because of the NVRAM error and that's when it started. Are you still in touch? Can they remember anything they did what could cause this behavior? That would be the best direction for now, considering the lack of documentation.


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Offline timb

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2016, 06:33:11 pm »
Dexter, do you want a logic analyzer? I've got a late 80's vintage Sony/Tektronix analyzer I can send you. It's a small unit and I've only got one pod for it (you can pickup a second on eBay for ~$10). It does serial, parallel and signature analysis.
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Offline Tomorokoshi

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2016, 06:41:11 pm »
Looking at the hi-res picture:

1. The NOVRAMs are different. Was one replaced? Is the replaced one legitimate or counterfeit? If original is it still working?

2. A lot of memory-mapped devices seem to have a jumper on a "BSx" terminal. However, there is not one on the 16 x 2 Zig-Zag memory bank. Perhaps a jumper there will indicate something.

3. What is going on with the rework by the 10 MHz crystal?
 

Offline dexters_labTopic starter

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2016, 06:50:12 pm »


After a BERR the stack should contain the PC and the offending address, but even if you can dump the stack it will not tell you a lot without at least a memory map of the thing or many hours with IDA and the ROM dump. On the other hand you say that the previous owner opened it because of the NVRAM error and that's when it started. Are you still in touch? Can they remember anything they did what could cause this behavior? That would be the best direction for now, considering the lack of documentation.



yes i am still in contact with them, they have been helping me, he claims he touched nothing and only opened it to gain access to the internal serial port that i'm using

i am not too concerned with looking at the exact details of the software and what it was doing, from my checking i would say more than 50% of the installed ram is not accessible because of the bus error so i recon there must be something fundamentally wrong with the logic gluing it together

Offline dexters_labTopic starter

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2016, 07:05:55 pm »
1. The NOVRAMs are different. Was one replaced? Is the replaced one legitimate or counterfeit? If original is it still working?

both appear to be blank, they look fine to me. The date/batch code look slightly different... but  :-//

Quote
2. A lot of memory-mapped devices seem to have a jumper on a "BSx" terminal. However, there is not one on the 16 x 2 Zig-Zag memory bank. Perhaps a jumper there will indicate something.

i noticed this too, i will buzz these pins out and see what they connect to

Quote
3. What is going on with the rework by the 10 MHz crystal?

well spotted! That is a small link that connects the binary counter i mentioned earlier to an inverter to assert the BERR on the CPU, without it the CPU never sees any BERR. It does seem to be intentional, there are two vias that come up and don't go anywhere. Myself and the previous owner speculated it's there for debugging purposes but not 100% on that, there's flux around it from when i removed and reinstalled it to see what happened.

Offline dexters_labTopic starter

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2016, 07:14:18 pm »
Dexter, do you want a logic analyzer? I've got a late 80's vintage Sony/Tektronix analyzer I can send you. It's a small unit and I've only got one pod for it (you can pickup a second on eBay for ~$10). It does serial, parallel and signature analysis.

thanks Tim, how small is small? - Thinking about postage costs...

Offline timb

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2016, 07:23:50 pm »
Dexter, do you want a logic analyzer? I've got a late 80's vintage Sony/Tektronix analyzer I can send you. It's a small unit and I've only got one pod for it (you can pickup a second on eBay for ~$10). It does serial, parallel and signature analysis.

thanks Tim, how small is small? - Thinking about postage costs...

Forgot you were in the UK! Let me measure and weigh it. From the US to UK, I imagine ~$30 via Parcel Post, as it's not that heavy, but let me verify.

If it's much more than that, you might be better picking up something like a Saleae unit.
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Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2016, 07:53:06 pm »
Quote
2. A lot of memory-mapped devices seem to have a jumper on a "BSx" terminal. However, there is not one on the 16 x 2 Zig-Zag memory bank. Perhaps a jumper there will indicate something.

i noticed this too, i will buzz these pins out and see what they connect to

Well spotted! It should not take a lot of time trying a jumper on both positions and see what happens.
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Offline Rasz

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2016, 08:31:23 pm »
i

love your YT channel :) its like Daves one from 4 years ago before he got fat and lazy :P

don't have a logic analyser

http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/preorder-open-workbench-logic-sniffer-p-612.html?cPath=75
ZX spectrum memory bus debugging with this thing:


its highly underrated due to somewhat crude opensource frontend, but does the job at a fraction of the price.
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Offline dexters_labTopic starter

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2016, 10:29:59 pm »

love your YT channel :) its like Daves one from 4 years ago before he got fat and lazy :P

lol, thanks! :-+

Quote
its highly underrated due to somewhat crude opensource frontend, but does the job at a fraction of the price.

interesting, i'll take a look  :-+ i would probably look at one of the 32 channel hantek units, but i'm always open to suggestions

Offline Anks

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2016, 11:48:05 pm »
When you isolated the BERR line did you force it high or low or just leave it floating? Regardless if this really is a bus error and isn't the ram it's the logic in between. You need to force pins high and check there output. I fixed many a logic board that I had no schematic for using reasonable logic. You look at it and you will have 74x255 etc chips doing the bus multiplexing. Either something is stuck or the ram is fucked.
 
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Offline dexters_labTopic starter

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2016, 09:18:54 am »
Thanks for all the replies  :-+

So i have been looking at this a bit more, it is a bit of a royal PITA it is huge thing filling my desk and is also designed to be force air-cooled which only happens when the two halves of the box are together... the video in and out boards seem to get steaming hot so i have a large pedestal fan running right next to me trying to keep it cool while it's turned on.

When you isolated the BERR line did you force it high or low or just leave it floating? Regardless if this really is a bus error and isn't the ram it's the logic in between. You need to force pins high and check there output. I fixed many a logic board that I had no schematic for using reasonable logic. You look at it and you will have 74x255 etc chips doing the bus multiplexing. Either something is stuck or the ram is fucked.

there is an inverter after that link and before the CPU so the BERR pin itself would not have been floating, but the input to the inverter might have been. But yea i am just struggling a bit as i  have never attempted anything like this before so it's a steep learning curve!

So here is what i did:

setup my scope with the ext trigger input onto the BERR pin, CH2 onto the AS (Address Strobe) line and i can use CH1 to see any of the other lines. So i can correlate AS to anything else. I thought to read out what the address & data bus when it BERR. With that setup i can scroll back on the scope about 6.5us after the BERR i can find the last AS transition and the state of each of the other pins.

it looks like it's a write of 0x64 to 0x7CB000, but that doesn't really tell me anything anyway and reading/writing to this address using the serial console works without any BERR  :-//

if anyone has tips about how to look at the glue logic?  :-//

Offline SL4P

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2016, 04:28:29 am »
I know this is probably be irrelevant and too simple - but a lot of that era gear - despite being a common-buss backplane they were 'slot-specific'.  So make sure that you have all the modules (e.g. disk controller etc), and they're in the 'right' slots...!

Sorry for dragging the conversation down a step - but I knew a couple of techs back in the day - that didn't really 'get' this !
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Offline dexters_labTopic starter

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2016, 09:17:14 am »
I know this is probably be irrelevant and too simple - but a lot of that era gear - despite being a common-buss backplane they were 'slot-specific'.  So make sure that you have all the modules (e.g. disk controller etc), and they're in the 'right' slots...!

Sorry for dragging the conversation down a step - but I knew a couple of techs back in the day - that didn't really 'get' this !

all suggestions welcome!

AFAIK they are all in the right slots, the previous owner has had a couple of these units so i can only assume they are correct! Although the cards are marked, the slots are not.  :palm:

complete lack of hardware documentation makes it difficult to know simple things like this

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Quantel Paintbox & 68000 CPU Bus Errors
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2016, 12:00:06 pm »
The first two pics below are definitely in the 'not helpful, shut up' category. CPU emulator pods for the 6809, 68008, 68000 and 68010 CPUs. These work with a HP 1630G logic analyzer (and the disassemblers on disk), and I got a lot of use out of these over the years. Too bad you don't live nearby, as you could borrow them. But not going to ship overseas.

What might be helpful, is a tip for looking at digital system bus, with a simple hack that lets you see where individual bus lines are tristate and where driven.
Normally when you look at a running bus with a scope (or logic analyzer) when a line is floating where it should be driven, you can't tell. Because the intervals are so brief that the signal just drifts at approximately whatever last voltage it was driven to.

The last pic is of a couple of improvised 'does it float?' probes. Each one has two wires to the tip; one direct and one via a 1K resistor (inside the probe, next to the tip.) Yes, they are made of biro pens, and the tips are gramophone needles soldered into the brass pen point. In use you connect the direct one to a scope input, and the 'via 1K' wire to the output of a signal generator. Set the sig gen to sine or triangle output, with the p-p range between zero and 3V (for 5V TTL), and freq doesn't matter much. Say 10KHz.
When you put the probe on a bus pin, the 1K series resistor is too high to upset the correct logic drives. (Actually one of those probes has a button to select between 10K and 1K series R, for picky circuits.) But when the bus line is floating, the oscillator drives it up and down, async to the bus operation. This should not make any difference to the digital system's normal operation.

Visually on the scope, the result is that tristate intervals on the bus look 'shaded-in'. It's very obvious,and quite useful.
You can run along the address and data bus, and look for any that seem particularly different to others. Best if you can trigger the scope on some CPU action, such as reads or writes to a particular device.
This little thing is good for when looking at something for which you have zero documentation. Like your Harriet.

Btw,  I checked and couldn't find any info on it in my archives.

Oh, and you can look up the data for major chips on the board, find which are their chip select lines, and use a logic probe or scope on single shot, to see which ones are ever accessed during startup before the bus fault. If you can find one that is accessed right when the bus fault occurs, that should be a good clue. Can do this with a scope: channel 1 & trigger on the CS, ch 2 on the buserr. Which might be asserted some way into accessing the chip (or address range.)

Can you tell if the ram banks have parity error checking?

I think the worst case could be that one of the many PALs has died. Something to do with address decoding or bus logic. Have you checked the usual bitsavers, etc sites to see if anyone posted data on this machine?

 Edit: forgot to mention that the oscillator hack works with an analog scope, that visually averages many traces. Digital ones would need to be set to an equivalent averaging mode, if available.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 12:15:36 pm by TerraHertz »
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