Author Topic: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)  (Read 2771 times)

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Offline wraper

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2018, 09:06:05 pm »
Also, dear wraper, BTW, how do you think Apple itself fixes these mlbs? They do exactly the same thing...
Blast with a heat?  :palm:. Unlike you and me, Apple has a source for new chips. Not to say they do it somewhere in a big factory, not small repair shops. You can get many but not all (non faulty) chips, they origin is questionable and therefore hit and miss.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2018, 09:38:57 pm »
Exactly, replace the chip... with a new faulty chip.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2018, 10:02:27 pm »
Exactly, replace the chip... with a new faulty chip.
Say unreliable nvidia chips from 2006-2008 got an update in 2009 and were not failing anymore. Dunno about later chips but they probably got an update as well. Even if they replace them with the same chips which are prone to failure (not faulty), not 100% of them will fail. If they will eventually fail, you can at least expect they will last comparably as long as original chip lasted. If you blast the chip with a heat, it's still the same old chip which is still faulty.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 10:04:33 pm by wraper »
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2018, 12:42:44 am »
Also, dear wraper, BTW, how do you think Apple itself fixes these mlbs? They do exactly the same thing...
Blast with a heat?  :palm:.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8&feature=youtu.be&t=11m36s
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 12:45:35 am by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
 

Offline MacBook Mike

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2018, 05:33:58 am »
I dont think you need any more evidence than practical evidence.
AMD chips repair in 99% cases if done correctly and the chip is still working and stay working for a lenghty period of time (we are yet to have one return after years of servicing) , where NVidia chips fail within a few days or weeks after the exact same procedure. The most trouble originates from users abusing their failing hardware for days or months untill it completely fails before trying to service it.
You mean success that it lasts long enough that service customers are left without a repair warranty? If something fails within a few months people likely will just choose another repair shop, they don't have a warranty anyway. Some AMD chips from early 2010s were not that much better than Nvidia from 2006-2008.
Quote
Some times on nVidia chips due to bad cooling and constant usage at those higher temperatures a typical reballing fixes the problem as it was caused by bad bottom connections and not those within the chip.
In rare lucky+low stress cases might last like 6-12 months instead of 2 weeks. Issue still within the chip. Actual soldering fail is quiet rare and even with unaffected by plague flip chip BGA you never know for sure if the issue wasn't in the chip.


If a quick&easy reflow fixes it, and it does, who cares? How is it better to replace the chip with another new but also defective chip? I've done a zillion reflows to iMacs and PowerBooks and it just works(TM).

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/getting-started-with-bga-reflow-and-reballing/msg472940/#msg472940
Got to be nice to be someone who is ripping off his customers. If you know that you cannot buy a good replacement, you need to have guts to refuse a repair, not milking customer.

Ahhhhh!!!  MORONS! Bloody morons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   :scared:

LET ME TELL YOU, IF YOU A SELLING HEAT BLASTING (re-balling) as a service you're a moronic BELL-END


The issue is due to thermal expansion coeficient delta between the GPU die and substrate causing stress on the die / substrate interconnects!  :rant:   |O

HERE, learn something!....



« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 05:52:45 am by MacBook Mike »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2018, 05:58:00 am »
Ahhhhh!!!  MORONS! Bloody morons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   :scared:

LET ME TELL YOU, IF YOU A SELLING HEAT BLASTING (re-balling) as a service you're a moronic BELL-END
[...]
HERE, learn something!....

Jeez, man. This thread had finally, peacefully, faded awaa; wraper as well as George had survived it without physically injuring each other (to my knowledge).  ;)

And here you come, with a first post, months later, and feel the need to stir it all up again?? 
Who are you? Why should I believe you anything?  ???
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2018, 08:12:36 pm »
And who says the chip to substrate balls can't be fixed by a reflow? If a three minutes at 300°C reflow makes it work again, what explanation do you have for that other than "yes it works"?
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2018, 09:32:08 pm »
And who says the chip to substrate balls can't be fixed by a reflow? If a three minutes at 300°C reflow makes it work again, what explanation do you have for that other than "yes it works"?
Then try heating 2 pieces of solder stacked together without any flux present, then show us the result with photos.
Edit: also please explain why heating to only 150oC restores functionality as well? Is it a proof that solder melts at such temperature and a proof that it was fixed?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 09:53:40 pm by wraper »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2018, 09:50:47 pm »
On my part I can say that I blasted with heat or even reballed several GPUs myself. There was some stuff from my relatives and an acquaintance who needed a quick fix to revive his laptop before he gets a replacement MXM GPU. Needless to say, all of that died again sooner or later.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2018, 12:01:56 am »
Of course they'll die again, because the design flaw is still there. Just rinse and repeat...
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2018, 12:37:09 am »
Of course they'll die again, because the design flaw is still there. Just rinse and repeat...
Maybe you don't have anything better to do, but I don't feel like frying PCB once in a few weeks (if lucky, months) or even more often. Not to say faulty bump is never fixed, just barely makes a weak contact again.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2018, 05:47:45 am »
But nVidia never fixed the problem, so if you replace the chip you aren't doing it any better because the "newer" chip you put in is as bad as the one you've just removed. There's lots of info about this @ the inquirer:

https://www.theinquirer.net/search?query=nvidia+defective&per_page=48&sort=relevance1

For example:

https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1004378/why-nvidia-chips-defective

Quote from: theinquirer
Displaying Results 1-48 OF 5822 for "nvidia defective"

Charlie vs NVidia
Apple notebooks have defective Nvidia chips
Nvidia still won't come clean

10 OCTOBER 2008
Charlie vs NVidia
Nvidia recommends not buying its defective chips
Told ya so

26 DECEMBER 2008
Graphics
What Nvidia should do now
Part Three The cock-up

02 SEPTEMBER 2008
Charlie vs NVidia
Apple Knowledgebase says G92s are defective
Bumpgate You wanted proof...

14 OCTOBER 2008
Graphics
Nvidia's bad bump misery deepens
Insurers bite back

19 MAY 2009
Rambus sues Nvidia
Memory standards troll strikes again

11 JULY 2008
Charlie vs NVidia
Nvidia sued for violations of federal securities law
All may be revealed

10 SEPTEMBER 2008
Channel
Nvidia dumps five partners
Leggit and Flee

04 OCTOBER 2008
Graphics
Nvidia settles Bumpgate class action lawsuit
Offers a wad of cash and new chips

01 OCTOBER 2010
Graphics
Nvidia chipsets are defective too
BumpGate Only 630, 7050, 7100 and 7150 changed for no reason

22 SEPTEMBER 2008
Charlie vs NVidia
Nvidia G92s and G94 reportedly failing
Desktop boards this time

12 AUGUST 2008
Apple ejects union organiser over Nvidia shareholder lawsuit
An improbably twisted tale

17 OCTOBER 2008
Graphics
HP admits 38 desktops have defective Nvidia chips
Time to update the 8-K filing

12 OCTOBER 2008
Charlie vs NVidia
Nvidia changes desktop G86 for no reason
Deny, spin, duck, dodge

25 AUGUST 2008
Graphics
HP pays half for Nvidia's graphic problems
Analysis The numbers game

31 JULY 2008
Graphics
Users come second to HP finances
No Nvidia BIOS downgrade for you

01 AUGUST 2008
Graphics
New Macbooks will sport Nvidia GPUs
Two in some cases

14 OCTOBER 2008
Graphics
Nvidia is out at Dell
Bumps and payback

26 MAY 2009
Chips
Sony admits to failing Nvidia chips 13 months late
How long is that warranty?

11 AUGUST 2009
Graphics
Pressure mounts on HP over failing Nvidia graphics cards
Fried from the moment when the chip went 'pop'!

[...]
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 07:43:58 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2018, 01:42:11 pm »
But nVidia never fixed the problem, so if you replace the chip you aren't doing it any better because the "newer" chip you put in is as bad as the one you've just removed. There's lots of info about this @ the inquirer:

https://www.theinquirer.net/search?query=nvidia+defective&per_page=48&sort=relevance1

For example:

https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1004378/why-nvidia-chips-defective
And now you are talking bullshit as it is. The same chips with 2009+ date code were fixed and even had underfill of different color.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2018, 05:34:27 pm »
@Macbook Mike:  See what you have done now?   ;)
 

Online flolic

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2018, 07:27:23 pm »
I used to do chip reballs, but soon come to conclusion that's completely waste of time. Now I just replace chip with new one if it is available from reputable seller (but reputable is a tricky word when stuff comes from China).
For devices that you can't get new chips, liker PS4 game consoles APU-s, I just do proper reflow. But for that service I don't give ANY warranty and it is completely at customer risk. Price for that service is fair and stuff usually last at
least 6+ months after repair. Customers are generally OK with that.
 

Online BradC

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2018, 07:59:32 pm »
I used to do chip reballs, but soon come to conclusion that's completely waste of time. Now I just replace chip with new one if it is available from reputable seller (but reputable is a tricky word when stuff comes from China).
For devices that you can't get new chips, liker PS4 game consoles APU-s, I just do proper reflow. But for that service I don't give ANY warranty and it is completely at customer risk. Price for that service is fair and stuff usually last at
least 6+ months after repair. Customers are generally OK with that.

There are occasional legit requirements for a recall. The HP Jetdirect 615 had been soldered with either a duff profile or duff solder and they had a pretty much 100% long term failure rate. They are completely cured with a reball, it's just unless you are doing for academic purposes it's not cost effective.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2018, 08:44:28 pm »
At least for the faulty 7300 and 7600 GT GPUs in the 2006-2007 MacPros and iMacs, I'm sure nVidia never bothered to fix those because they had been already obsoleted by the 9400, 8600GT, QuadroFX, GT 120/130 etc. by the time the problem was discovered and widely known. Proof for that is also that Apple never issued a recall (repair extension program in Apple's parlance) for those two but instead issued a FW update to both slow down its clocks and speed up its fan, e.g.:

https://support.apple.com/kb/DL285?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US

IOW a "fix" of the same sort of the infamous Apple iPhone battery slowdown patch, very much in line with nVidia's proposed "fix" at the time (2008-9):

https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1051409/nvidia-k-filing-goes-microscope

Quote
But the humour doesn't stop there. From the 8-K: "We have developed and have made available for download a software driver to cause the system fan to begin operation at the powering up of the system and reduce the thermal stress on these chips. " From the 10-K: "We have worked with our customers to develop and have made available for download a software driver to cause the system fan to begin operation at the powering up of the system and reduce the thermal stress on these chips."

2009 is three years later, when nVidia finally began to grasp it:
"Nvidia finally understands bumpgate"
https://semiaccurate.com/2009/08/21/nvidia-finally-understands-bumpgate/

AFAIK, that's all they did for these two older GPUs, as for other later models, I honestly am not sure, but if you dig deeper at the inquirer, I seem to recall there's an article there (or pehaps @ semiaccurate.com) saying that they not only never really found a proper solution, but, they also got rid of all their abundant stock of known faulty chips by selling them mixed with new (fixed according to them, not really according to theinquirer) ones... And most of them have had to have repair extension programs anyways, proof that chips manufactured after 2009 were still, also defective.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 08:50:03 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2018, 11:37:23 pm »
At least for the faulty 7300 and 7600 GT GPUs in the 2006-2007 MacPros and iMacs, I'm sure nVidia never bothered to fix those because they had been already obsoleted by the 9400, 8600GT, QuadroFX, GT 120/130 etc. by the time the problem was discovered and widely known. Proof for that is also that Apple never issued a recall (repair extension program in Apple's parlance) for those two but instead issued a FW update to both slow down its clocks and speed up its fan, e.g.:
IIRC 7 series nvidia were not affected (or at least they were not dying like cockroaches), also they were not used in macbook pro. Apple gone from ati in 2006 to nvidia 8 series in 2007. FYI you can find g84/g86-xxx chips from 2006-2008 even with 2012 date codes.

« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 11:40:30 pm by wraper »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2018, 11:44:12 pm »
2009 is three years later, when nVidia finally began to grasp it:
"Nvidia finally understands bumpgate"
And when they were supposed to fix them when they usually were failing after around 2+ years? When it became clear there is a big issue, they fixed them. Also it's not like you can implement such fix instantly.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2018, 12:40:00 am »
Quote
IIRC 7 series nvidia were not affected (or at least they were not dying like cockroaches), also they were not used in macbook pro.

1) FYI MacPro !== MacBookPro
2) iMac 24" 2006 and ~all MacPros at that time came with 7300 and 7600, and yes, they were dying like cockroaches.
3) The chip in your post is NOT a 7300/7600 GT.
4) It seems you believe the first Macs affected were the 2007 and on MacBook Pros with the 8600m GT, those were the first that had an extension program (read: the first time Apple publicly recognized the fault), but they were not the first to fail nor the only ones...
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2018, 05:45:37 am »
Quote
IIRC 7 series nvidia were not affected (or at least they were not dying like cockroaches), also they were not used in macbook pro.

1) FYI MacPro !== MacBookPro
2) iMac 24" 2006 and ~all MacPros at that time came with 7300 and 7600, and yes, they were dying like cockroaches.
3) The chip in your post is NOT a 7300/7600 GT.
I guess I read improperly because was typing from airport. If 7 series were dying in desktop Macs there should be some very inferior cooling. Even crappy 8 series were relatively little affected on desktop PCs due to much lower temperatures. Sourcing 7 series GPUs was never a problem because they did not fail much, and there was no much demand. Sourcing 8 series was difficult, a lot of relabeled GPUs with altered part number (ink marking) or even sanded silicon and fake marking applied with laser. Demand was huge but supply was limited. So Chinese friends sold whatever they got (including old faulty GPUs) as whatever you would want to buy   |O.
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2018, 05:11:46 pm »
laptop 7 was a plague, HP Pavilion dv9000 was one of the most famous victims, I am guessing mobile 7 wasnt as popular as 8 series so you didnt hear about it as much.
desktop 7 didnt die en masse afaik, or at least were replaced withe newer gen cards(7 to 8 was a massive leap in performance) fast enough it wasnt noticed.
desktop 8 was a disaster, its quite rare nowadays to find a high end working 8-9-2xx series card, my personal collection is full of dead ones (8800,9800,285), every card died in 2-5 years, all bad GPU. Anecdotally I also have 7600 GS which survived running 24/7 10 years with a voltmod and aggressive 50% OC (400/400 to 600/600 MHz), finally ended up frying ram supply controller. I dont even recall Collectors complaining about 7 series.
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Offline wraper

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2018, 05:50:33 pm »
laptop 7 was a plague, HP Pavilion dv9000 was one of the most famous victims, I am guessing mobile 7 wasnt as popular as 8 series so you didnt hear about it as much.
desktop 7 didnt die en masse afaik, or at least were replaced withe newer gen cards(7 to 8 was a massive leap in performance) fast enough it wasnt noticed.
desktop 8 was a disaster, its quite rare nowadays to find a high end working 8-9-2xx series card, my personal collection is full of dead ones (8800,9800,285), every card died in 2-5 years, all bad GPU. Anecdotally I also have 7600 GS which survived running 24/7 10 years with a voltmod and aggressive 50% OC (400/400 to 600/600 MHz), finally ended up frying ram supply controller. I dont even recall Collectors complaining about 7 series.
DV6000/DV9000 which failed were either AMD CPU based with Nvidia NF-G6100-N-A2, NF-G6150-N-A2 chipset with integrated GPU (Geforce Go 6100/6150 GPU), NF-SPP-100-N-A2 (same as NF-G6100-N-A2 but with disabled GPU) or with 8 series GPU (both AMD and intel). A bit newer ones (AMD) had nvidia MCP67x-xx chipset which was just as bad (with iGPU enabled variants GPU was displayed as Geforce GO 7-something). Those chipsets were of the same generation as 8 series GPUs and even less reliable. I don't recall any intel based DV6000/DV9000 with 7 series dedicated GPU, only AMD, and those with AMD always had nvidia chipset to die first.
EDIT:
I actually sourced some NF-G6100-N-A2 with 2009 date code (with glue remains on corners, removed from scrap mobos) and replaced NF-SPP-100-N-A2 and even NF-G6150-N-A2 (with bios mod to support G6100) with them as I bought several dead DV6000 laptops, some were brought for repair by acquaintances. One of them I used myself and one was given to my father. Mine had dedicated Geforce GO 7400, father had one with dedicated GO 7200. They worked fine for several years afterwards.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 07:15:15 pm by wraper »
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Reball "repair" (the Rossman video and such)
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2018, 05:57:55 pm »
Anecdotally I also have 7600 GS which survived running 24/7 10 years with a voltmod and aggressive 50% OC (400/400 to 600/600 MHz), finally ended up frying ram supply controller.

MSI made a 7600Go MXM card for their laptops that's 100% compatible with the 2006 24" iMac, you just have to replace the spi eeprom that's 1/2 the size of Apple's, and write Apple's code into it. That's very easy to do because the ROM image and the flasher program come bundled in the iMac's graphics firmware update .dmg.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 05:59:54 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
 


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