Author Topic: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator  (Read 21791 times)

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Offline feeltech

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2017, 12:40:03 am »
Thank you for using our products, for your inconvenience to this problem, you can contact the dealer for processing, they will be free for you to repair, if the results are not satisfied you can send an email directly to: admin@feeltech.net
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Offline feeltech

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2017, 12:42:02 am »
On mine, the sine waveform is no more available, I must use a sine waveform I've stored in an arbitrary slot.

unfortunately, my FY6600 now also looks like the one from the thread starter  :-\. And it all started with not having the sine wave; some additional switch off/on sequences later, all wave forms having sine-like wave forms in the positive disappeared. And a few minutes later it was all gone, display scrambled.
Good luck for your's not going the same path...

Sending back to China for "warranty" for me is not really an option, shipping would be higher than i payed for this; but this i knew before buying.

For me it looks like some sort of "memory corruption" - the logic itself still seems to run, buttons still do 'something', relays are clicking like before...

Startup also shows some sort of humour, presenting "selfinspection completed"...  ???

[edit: just noticed that thread starter has exactly the same "scrambling" on startup screen like me, so it's not "random". And it's also version 3.0... ]


Thank you for using our products, for your inconvenience to this problem, you can contact the dealer for processing, they will be free to repair for you, and does not charge shipping costs, if the results are not satisfied you can send an email directly to: admin @ feeltech.net
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Offline canyonTopic starter

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2017, 11:03:17 pm »
But do you "fix" the problem? What is the fix? Do we end up with a unit that bricks the next time it is used? Too many unknowns, and your dealer is much less than honest, and terrible to deal with. I have been offered 3 different dollar amounts to keep the unit by this dealer. I cannot envision ever buying your brand again for any reason or cost. Why would you introduce a product this bad, and not take it off the market.
 

Offline rhb

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2017, 03:50:10 pm »
I should like to point out that I sent an email about the problem to FeelTech in which I referenced this and the other thread on their AWG.  They responded immediately not only to me by email but in both threads and have promised to fix the bad units at no cost.  They have also stated that they are going to modify the power cord to a 3 wire.

The general assessment is that this is a bug in the V 3.0 FW which has been fixed in later versions.  FeelTEch has asked to be contacted directly if the dealer doesn't provide a satisfactory result.  The dealer is not the manufacturer, so their interests are not aligned with the manufacturers.  The dealer I bought mine from has a warehouse in the US, but they sell everything from veterinary supplies to CNC machine tooling.

I think you owe feeltech the courtesy of either PM or a direct email to resolve the matter.  Keep in mind that they are on the other side of the planet, so there is a 12 hour delay built in.  We all have to sleep.
 

Offline canyonTopic starter

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2017, 07:46:12 pm »
I did contact the factory and was directed to the dealer twice. This was a four week exchange of e-mails. Three offers from the dealer to keep the bad unit in exchange for $25, then $30, and finally $35. If the factory admitted to faulty programming, they could have told me at that time. It would have been be nice if they had requested their dealers not to sell defective product and return the product. I'm very pleased you are satisfied, and had a successful experience with their products.
 

Offline rhb

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2017, 12:58:53 am »
Good to know.  My situation is not resolved yet.  I hope they correct your problem and mine.  We shall see.  There is plenty of competition.
 

Offline canyonTopic starter

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2017, 08:41:47 pm »
I've tried the factory again. I guess we'll see if they respond. Went to the P.O. and it will cost another $30 to get it in their hands, via slow boat. Right now it's useless. It's worth another $30 if they can repair it.
 
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Offline Rasz

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2017, 09:43:14 pm »
If FeelCrap had any clue they would simply offer sending everyone affected preprogrammed STM32
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Offline janoc

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2017, 11:42:31 pm »
If FeelCrap had any clue they would simply offer sending everyone affected preprogrammed STM32

Publishing a fixed hex/bin file to load in the existing one would be easier and plenty enough ...
 

Offline rhb

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2017, 12:22:00 am »
An STM32 would be a huge PITA.  A replacement front panel is the minimum FRPU that is practical. I was told by admin that FeelTech would cover the shipping costs.  I've still not heard back from the seller, sportsgogo, who said they were contacting the supplier.  Not sure if that's FeelTech or a 3rd party.  It will get quite tedious if there is a distributor involved also.  Loading a new FW image would also be a PITA as it would require a good bit of work.

The shipping cost makes it not worth while for FeelTech to cover the cost of returning the front panel unless they have an agent in the US.  They are best off just shipping a new front panel to affected owners.  It seems that not very many units entered the supply chain before they discovered and fixed the problem.  The count I saw was 3 or 4 in the other EEVblog thread.

The bug almost certainly only affects the UI, so without a replacement from FeelTech I'd just  buy a competing unit and use the remains of the FeelTech as a module.  I bought an MSO so I could do things like reverse engineer the protocol on the 8 bit bus connecting the UI to the generator.

 I'll give FeelTech a week or so to sort things out.  After that I just might try the Fraunhofer paper hack.  I've got all the requisite stuff.  Just need sufficient motivation.  Not sure I want to fix an uncommented assembly language program dump  though, so I might just post the recovered code for someone else to fix.

Had I not modified my unit, I'd simply have  complained to Paypal it was defective.  I only buy things like passives direct from China.  I got several defective modules from China and discovered very quickly that returns cost more than the device. So now I select "US only" when shopping on eBay.

The JDS and Koolertron versions have better cosmetics. What looks like copying to us may simply be small companies with the facilities to manufacture boards, licensing designs and FW from someone like Hantek.  That would make a great deal of sense in the low end T&M trade.  It means they choose to compete on price rather than exclusivity. The R&D cost is what makes Keysight kit so expensive.

I'm hoping FeelTech will carry though properly.  I shall certainly give them a fair chance to do so.  After that, well read my .sig
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2017, 05:01:28 am »
If FeelCrap had any clue they would simply offer sending everyone affected preprogrammed STM32

Publishing a fixed hex/bin file to load in the existing one would be easier and plenty enough ...
[/quote]

As I mentioned earlier not going to happen, things get cloned in China in a matter of weeks if firmware is available.



An STM32 would be a huge PITA.  A replacement front panel is the minimum FRPU that is practical.

You bought cheap chinese toy, not Agilent/Lecroy instrument, You should feel very happy if you EVER get any service from this company(other than stalling and fractional refunds).

It seems that not very many units entered the supply chain before they discovered and fixed the problem.  The count I saw was 3 or 4 in the other EEVblog thread.

Im guessing every single one sold will die the same way, overwriting internal data with some logging garbage. Might even be an artifact from cloning competitor/reusing random code from pudn.com.
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Offline janoc

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2017, 09:36:48 am »
As I mentioned earlier not going to happen, things get cloned in China in a matter of weeks if firmware is available.

Things do get cloned even if the firmware is not available, so this is a silly argument. There is also the hack available to bypass the firmware lock now, making the firmware extraction even easier. Moreover, there are several clones (rebrands?) of these devices available already (perhaps not this exact model, haven't looked closely). There isn't a whole lot of "smarts" in these devices to steal to begin with.

So the cloners won't be hampered by this one bit, only the paying customers. It is up to Feeltech whether they prefer to screw their own clients (and get a major reputation hit in the process) or not  :-//

The worse problem is that the generators are not designed to be field-updatable for whatever reason, so reflashing the firmware means opening the box and potentially soldering on some wires to the SWD/USART pins unless there is a connector/programming pads available, with all the bad implications for warranty claims and what not. Still beats having to replace the entire MCU, though.
 

Offline jleg

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2017, 09:51:36 am »
An STM32 would be a huge PITA.  A replacement front panel is the minimum FRPU that is practical.

what i do not quite understand - you seem to be sure that this is a UI/front panel issue only; but the TO here stated that "he lost the sine output", and on mine, i lost practically all wave forms on the outputs.
Yes, the UI has totally screwed up, while push buttons still seem to "do something" - but at least on mine i also have mostly garbage on the outputs as well...

Btw, i also wrote to admin@feeltech - but did not get any response so far...
 

Offline rhb

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2017, 06:35:17 pm »
Most of the waveforms on mine work correctly.  The display is all screwed up and the frequency and voltages are set incorrectly at power up, but it works as shown on the display.  If the UI doesn't send the correct command to the AWG board, it won't do what it should.

The AWG module is a variable clock that dumps the memory contents to a DAC.  There's just not a lot there.  I should know a good bit about the commands for the AWG once I make a reliable way to connect my MSO LA probes to the bus.
 

Offline SaabFAN

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2017, 06:39:16 pm »
I'm guessing the waveforms are stored in the internal flash of the Micro. Most likely the same place that hold the data for the UI.

Btw. I doubt reprogramming the Micro is an option. The Presentation by the Fraunhofer Institute about the STM32F0 flash-security states that RPD-Level 2 disables the SWD-Functionality permanently. I haven't done any further research, but I'm guessing that disabling the SWD-Interface also disables any possibility to program the chip with an ST-LINK programmer.

If the chip is still programmable, I think the best way to get defective units working again, unless Feeltech is replacing whole front-panel assemblies, is to reverse engineer the system and reprogram the chip with free software.

Online DC1MC

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2017, 07:55:28 pm »
Hello everybody, I'm now majorly pissed on some Chinese seller and I've decided to pay them a bit back  :box:, so I can assist you in reversing the original firmware if you manage to get and/or building an open source replacement, in the process also publishing the schematics, if major brands are publishing the detailed schematics of extraordinary expensive instruments, this guys should be doing it as well.
I wanted such a cheap generator, but I wanted it to work reliably and probably I would have anyway reversed the communication protocol, but now I really want to do it.
While my device it's on its way, could somebody tell the exact version of the STM chip used, and if it already hooked a debugger to verify the actual protection level.
If it's level 1, then it's feasible to try to get the firmware image, if it's level 2, then the FP schematic has to be reversed and some new chip has to be soldered (if there isn't any way to fully erase it).
But in the end, most likely a lot of these damaged devices will appear on fleabay so it is worth having a firmware ready.

 Please publish here or kindly PM me the draft schematics or any other information to get me started until my device arrives.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC


I'm guessing the waveforms are stored in the internal flash of the Micro. Most likely the same place that hold the data for the UI.

Btw. I doubt reprogramming the Micro is an option. The Presentation by the Fraunhofer Institute about the STM32F0 flash-security states that RPD-Level 2 disables the SWD-Functionality permanently. I haven't done any further research, but I'm guessing that disabling the SWD-Interface also disables any possibility to program the chip with an ST-LINK programmer.

If the chip is still programmable, I think the best way to get defective units working again, unless Feeltech is replacing whole front-panel assemblies, is to reverse engineer the system and reprogram the chip with free software.
 

Offline jleg

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2017, 08:24:29 pm »
I'm guessing the waveforms are stored in the internal flash of the Micro. Most likely the same place that hold the data for the UI.

According to
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1352448/#msg1352448
waveforms are stored in the Winbond flash.
 

Offline SaabFAN

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2017, 11:14:26 pm »
Is the generator still working if you unplug the front-panel?
It is possible that the Front-Panel really is just the UI and communicates via some sort of UART with the Cyclone IV FPGA on the mainboard.
I've just watched a video with a teardown of this generator. The Micro in question is a STM32F103C8T6. Unfortunately I haven't seen any programming header on the front panel-board and the LCD seems to be connected directly to the micro. So it also has to be determined how the STM controls the LCD. Preferably with a still working model :)

For an open Source alternative I've started a project some time ago that can be found here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/oshw/open-source-hw-rf-signal-generator/

Offline rhb

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2017, 03:08:49 am »
It's been reported that the FW is level 1 protected which makes the FW recoverable via the Fraunhofer attack.  It has also been verified that the waveforms are in the Winbond flash.  In any case, there is no way to protect the communication protocol between the front panel and the AWG board.  So controlling it with an Arduino is not  a major task.

There is an unpopulated programming header on the front panel.  There is an RS232 UART to the back panel.  I did not see any activity on it when I connected my MSO, but that might be inexperience on my part.  I've not yet tried connecting a terminal to the back panel.  So far as I know there is no documentation of the "feature".

The back panel BNCs make the FeelTEch more attractive to me than the JDS units.  But that advantage disappears if it doesn't work. 

Like many others, I'm hoping that FeelTech recognizes that they can garner a very devoted user community by cooperating and providing documentation.  There are companies that reverse engineer products and sell the schematics, BOM and very likely the FW images to anyone willing to pay.  So secrecy is pretty silly.  If you're going to invest in manufacturing  a device, the cost of having someone do the level 2 Fraunhofer attack is minor.  Especially if it's a multi-client job.  And in the context of something as simple as the UI of the FeelTech, writing a UI for the hardware from scratch is not a big deal.

I'm rather amazed that no one has called any of the Chinese T&M vendors on the GPL.  I know that both Instek and Siglent are using embedded Linux in their gear. So in fact, open source T&M gear exists.  The makers simply have not yet been compelled to provide the source.  The UIs I've seen are so bad I'd start over once I had identified the device drivers.  Those should be easy to extract from FW updates.

I don't think FeelTech should be beat up for not providing a means of updating the FW in the field.  It would add significantly to the cost.  However, I *do* think they would benefit from opening up the FW if they can legally do that.  It's a good bit of work to reverse engineer a product.  I suspect that there is more licensing of production rights than is recognized in the West.  But the quality of the AWG board is such that there would be a lot of enthusiasm for adding features to the UI at no cost to FeelTech.  They couldn't prevent competitors from using it, but they *do* have more back panel options.
 
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Offline cybermaus

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2017, 03:26:05 am »
For me too it was the back panel (specifically the VCO) but also the better sweep options (not just frequency, also PWM/Amp sweep) that made me choose the FY6600 over the JDS6600.

But the fact the device can self-destruct at any moment with no recovery means I would not recommend it to anyone.

Mostly it seems to affect 3.0 devices, but @ebel4010 had his Sine go bad on a V3.1 device. So not all firmware bugs were fixed. Of course the Sine (along with Square, CMOS and Pulse) are not stored waveforms, but calculated waveforms. You can change their shape with an extra parameter (pulse-width), so they are extra sensitive to errors in the UI & Control module.

@chtech7010 hooked up a programmer to STM32
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1355639/#msg1355639

I hooked up a STLink to STM32, but did not jot down notes, Sorry

As noted above, I did study the Winbond. A better link to the flash structure:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1353950/#msg1353950

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1352448/#msg1352448


 

Offline cybermaus

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2017, 06:14:04 pm »
Not really useful, a little sad even, but misery loves company (gedeelde smart is halve smart):

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-function-generator-100352/
 

Offline canyonTopic starter

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2017, 07:04:36 pm »
It's been another week since my last round of requests to return it to the factory, so they can replace the faulty v3.0 firmware. Still no directions or intentions to accept it for service. Does anyone have any other e-mail other than their catch all one at <admin@feeltech.net> ? 
 

Offline rhb

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2017, 07:38:56 pm »
I've not heard anything more from sportgogo, the seller, after a week.  This is despite assurances "not to worry" which if I were to be uncharitable I should suspect is to let the Paypal guarantee period expire.

If FeelTech does not respond in a useful fashion by sending out replacement front panels next week, I think we should post our correspondence with FeelTech and the sellers to a thread entitled "FeelTech FY-6600 Support Review" with an initial post stating the problem we have had and the response from FeelTech to date.

That will ensure that if anyone does a search related to the instrument they will see the issue front and center.  The only way for FeelTech to dig out of that hole is to address the problem by sending out front panels directly to the end users.  I shall explain this to admin@feeltech.net in my email later today.  I suspect that person is the only one conversant in English. Hopefully they won't dig themselves a deeper hole.

I should certainly advise against shipping the unit back until a replacement had arrived at their expense along with a return shipping voucher if they want the old unit back.

The Chinese are exploiting subsidized shipping to the West and hiding behind the cost of returns.   That is why I won't buy if it ships from China unless it's just a couple of bucks.
 

Offline rhb

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2017, 11:27:25 pm »
My email to FeelTech:

Quote

I have not heard anything from the seller, sportgogo, in a week.  I also know from the EEVblog threads of people who have been trying to get their units fixed for over a month and have contacted both you and the seller as I have done.  All without any substantive result.

I should like to suggest that you send those with bad FW,  replacement front panels.   Your cost for the front panels is less than the return shipping cost for US and European customers.  So it makes no sense to return the defective boards.  It also makes no sense to involve the sellers as they don't have the means to solve the problem.  Doing so just adds time and cost to resolving the matter.

If you do not send me and other affected  owners on EEVblog, replacement panels, I intend to start a thread entitled "FeelTech FY-6600 Support Review"  for affected owners to post all related correspondence on the matter.  That subject line will ensure that any prospective buyer knows the true level of support you provide.  Any search about your product will turn up a link to that thread.  I should like to suggest that that is not likely to be good for your sales.  I should greatly prefer to post that you provide great customer service, but I shall only do that if it is true.

In case you did not read my .sig, I should like to share it with you. 

"We all get what we deserve whether we want it or not, either as individuals or as members of a group.  Sometimes this is as punishment and sometimes it's a blessing.  Which is always ambiguous and depends entirely upon what we do next."

Regards,
Reg Beardsley

 

Online DC1MC

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Re: Reflashing or resetting a FeelTech FY6600 Signal Generator
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2017, 07:33:22 pm »
Dear thread members, I'm resurrecting this thread to bump it up, because I want to let you know that soon I will start the analyzing the FY6600 with the purpose of determining the communication protocol between the front panel and the signal board, extracting and/or replacing the FP firmware.
If you can contribute HW or your skills with KiCAD for drawing a schematic, or anything else related, please come on the other thread, and let me know.
I will most likely create a separate thread for this project but for the moment the discussion is on the

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator

Kindly please excuse the cross-posting, but I hope that some of the posters here will benefit as well form this project.

 Thank you, DC1MC
 


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