Author Topic: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair  (Read 28332 times)

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Offline omerdTopic starter

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2014, 05:13:39 pm »
I can also just double the gain on the low-frequency stage, the sensor may be defective but not completely useless.
I will try to get another unit with a working probe.
 

Offline Rupunzell

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2015, 04:30:02 pm »
The current transformer/hall sensor assembly is lapped to optical level tolerances (millions of an inch) after potting. Tampering with it will result in near zero chance of getting the entire assembly back together with proper alignment. If the double mu-metal housing shield become bent in any way, it's magnetic shielding properties will be compromised.

This is why cleaning with Freon 11 or water was recommended as any residue between the current sensing assembly and cap results in a larger air gap between the sensing assembly and cap altering it's magnetic circuit and overall frequency response. High purity iso-alchol can be used to clean the core. Keep in mind both upper and lower parts of the current sensing assembly must meet with great precision and no air gap.

The hall sensor is embedded within the ferrite core assembly with epoxy. Early production of these units, the epoxy was found to be excessively brittle. This resulted in cracking of the epoxy within the core damaging the hall sensor. Tek later went to a different epoxy which helped to reduce this mode of failure. This is why these tek current probers must be treated with great care or a dead probe are often the results.

The later Tek AM6302 current sensing assembly can be used in the P6042. p/n 120-0494-00 (P6042) or 120-0494-02 (A orP 6302).

These current probes were not in much demand before the rise of switching power supplies. It was not too long ago when they were moderately common and not too expensive on the used market. These days, folks have discovered just how good they are and how useful they are and the current offerings are not better and often do not work nearly as well. There are few current probes like this to this day offering this level of performance. As for it's 50Mhz rating, a properly operating P6042 will easily exceed this and it has low noise and DC stable.

The thermal compensation R value should be written on the current sensing assembly. If not, it has been rubbed off or removed at some point of it's life.


Bernice



Sensor's dead. Sorry. Maybe you can just re-purpose it as an AC probe.
I never found out exactly how the hall sensor works. It seems to be a thin-film plated right on the ferrite core. Contacts are somehow made and the two core halves glued together with something that even epoxy remover can't touch. I don't know why a shock breaks it.
It's quite baffling.
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2015, 10:06:32 pm »
I had posted the following back in 2003 about my trials with my P6042.  Bob Pease was still with us and my main analyzer was an HP141T!    Maybe something in this mess will be of help to you if you are still trying to repair yours. 

****************************************************************************************
 
My unit came non-working. This is the normal trend. After taking the unit apart I noticed that the tant. caps. used for the main filters in the +/-16V supplies were shot. The more I dug into it, the more I found wrong. It turned out that almost every transistor had failed. The cable going to the probe also was open on three wires and the bulb had failed. It was a question of what was left that was good. If it was not for the wide BW, I would have pitched the unit.

To repair the cable I ended up cutting off about 1/2 a foot from both ends and then testing it. It turns out that the opens were in that area, somewhere. Who cares. Reattachment was difficult work.

With the cable repaired I ended up just doing some basic parts swapping to get the unit running enought to test the hall sensor. I was amazed to find it, and the diff. amp. front end to be in working order. All of the switches tested out fine as well so I decided to go ahead with the repairs.

The following is a list of standard transistors that may be used to replace the original parts.

2N2219; TO-39; Q45,Q51,Q53

2N2905; TO-39; Q42,Q44,Q54

2N3053; TO-39; Q73,Q79

2N3572; TO-18; Q113,Q121,Q123

2N3767; TO-92; Q163

2N3904; TO-92; Q175,Q161

2N3906; TO-92; Q22,Q24,Q156

MPS6515; TO-39; Q167,Q183

MPS6521; TO-92; Q29

All of these parts may be purchased, still, from Mouser (800-346-6873).

Q45 & Q44 are a matched pair and also Q53 & Q54. You may have to buy a few of these to try and get two matched sets.

More transistor problems ................

The P6042 was built back in the late 60's. The common practice at the time was to match transistors and then heat sink them together in order to null out any temperature drift. HP was putting transistors into a single 6 lead package to avoid the problem. The P6042 uses two transistors that were screened by Tek. They only have a house number and are no longer available. Tek's service could not tell me what the original part was which was a surprise. These parts are Q87 and Q96. Both parts are also in a TO-18 package. I plan to try and sort some 2N2222 and 2N2907s and use these for a replacement.

These parts are configured as a voltage follower. The emitter of the NPN is connected to the base of the PNP. So, Vbe must match on both parts.

The first step was to make a test fixture to screen the parts. I used Vishay's TC parts. These are very low temp. coef. and are 1%. I screened these using an HP34401A meter to get down to 0.1% I picked the current based on the normal operating current the parts see in the probe.

The following shows the basic test fixture (with the 2904/6s).

Testing so far has turned out very poor, and I have been unable to get under a mV of offset. I see some major changes when trying different manufactures parts, but running from the same manufacturer, same lot, there is not enough varience to get this close. I am now thinking about changing to a different type part and see if I can get something a bit closer.

I wrote Mr. Robert Pease on the subject who suggested trying some different parts. I procured 40pcs of a 2N3904 and 2N3906s from Motorola and ended up getting some very good results.

A wise comment from Mr. Pease:

"You could ask Fairchild if they sell the 2N3906 and 2N3906 chips in TO-18. I bet if the military wanted to buy 100 of these for $30 each, they could get them just fine,but, how much AUTHENTICITY do you want to pay for?

Best wishes. / rap"

I gave this some thought and decided to stay with the matched set TO92s I came up with. To get around the TO-18 heatsink problem, I ended up just filling the sink with grease and flipping it upside down. It seems stay very stable when I tested the unit with my heat gun.

After changing 3 caps, 13 transistors, 1 fuse, 2 resistors and fixing the cable, the work paid off. This unit must have really had one great SNAFU done to it! From the damage that was done, it appears it had been hit with a VERY LARGE line transient. Or, maybe someone plugged it into 220 without changing the switch from 110. What ever it was, I'm sure some EE said #$^%$ when it happened. Shown is the rebuilt unit with a 50MHz waveform. To get around using the TO-18s, I ended up just filling the sink with grease and flipping it upside down.

Shown is the unit after compensation has been performed. Scale is 10MHz/div, 2bB LOG. My guess is with some very simple modifications you could push this probes 3dB point out to 70MHz.






Online tautech

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2015, 10:37:54 pm »
I had posted the following back in 2003 about my trials with my P6042.  Bob Pease was still with us and my main analyzer was an HP141T!    Maybe something in this mess will be of help to you if you are still trying to repair yours. 

****************************************************************************************
 
My unit came non-working. This is the normal trend......
Valuable info, thanks for sharing.  :-+
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2015, 07:09:05 am »
Took a few pictures of my 6042 apart.   I used a 50 ohm resistor connected to BNC for a test probe. 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2015, 07:13:28 am »
Plots showing P6042 connected the the network analyzer.    DC up to 30MHz is under 1dB.    Fuzzy picture shows 10dB/div up to 100MHz.  There is 3dB of gain at 69.7MHz. 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2015, 07:18:48 am »
Connected the test resistor to a square wave generator to show the edge rate.   For a current probe made in the 60's, it does a good job.   





Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2015, 05:49:09 am »
Was attempting to increase the BW of the P6042. 

For the current source, I had started out with axial lead on BNC.   Even at 50 MHz it was poor.

50MHz - 53.1 ohms
100MHz - 64.7 ohms
200MHz - 102.8 ohms
400MHz - 277.5 ohms

I built the small PC mounted loop next with 2 X 1206 100 ohm.  This works much better and should be fine for 50MHz.

50MHz - 50.6 ohms
100MHz - 54.6 ohms
200MHz - 68.3 ohms
400MHz - 134.2 ohms

Next I built something more like a standard calibration jig which appears to work even better. 
 
50MHz - 50.2 ohms
100MHz - 50.2 ohms
200MHz - 50.2 ohms
400MHz - 50.1 ohms

I had noticed in the common on-line manual and the one I have, page 6-12 section 14 is not the same.  The schematics are also different.   In the common on-line manual, C62 is shown as a fixed 15pf.    My manual shows this as a 5-25pf and it is adjusted in section 14.   
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2015, 06:33:12 am »
With the high end boosted, I made an attempt to tame it.    Note that previous 100MHz sweep was 10dB/div compared to 5 in the attached plot.   Still not the best but may be the highest performing P6042 out there.   

Also shown is rise time improvement.   


Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2015, 08:56:32 am »
Made a short video showing my P6042 in operation after increasing the BW to over 90MHz.  I am not sure yet how much current it can handle at the higher frequencies. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f8zoyBxizs&feature=youtu.be

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2015, 12:30:51 am »
I guess I have to go through the thread again, but was the sensor damaged or not?
Hoarder of 8-bit Commodore relics and 1960s Tektronix 500-series stuff. Unconventional interior decorator.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2015, 05:41:47 am »
Using the modified P6042 to look at output signals from a small power amplifier at 80MHz. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVY9q5JhHHU&feature=youtu.be

Offline MattisLind

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2015, 03:21:10 pm »
(I know that this is an old thread)

I just repaired my Tek P6042. The cable was broken in both ends, the black lead in one end and the green lead in the probe end. While taking the probe apart I was very careful both to not knock the probe and then to not lose the metal ball. But the metal ball was already lost.

What kind of diameter is the metal ball? The Tektronix part number is 214-0997-00.

Is it possible to buy the appropriate cable somewhere?

 

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2015, 08:10:47 pm »
(I know that this is an old thread)

I just repaired my Tek P6042. The cable was broken in both ends, the black lead in one end and the green lead in the probe end. While taking the probe apart I was very careful both to not knock the probe and then to not lose the metal ball. But the metal ball was already lost.

What kind of diameter is the metal ball? The Tektronix part number is 214-0997-00.

Is it possible to buy the appropriate cable somewhere?
Welcome to the forum.

It is not uncommon for the cables to break near the end of the strain relief and shortening them is the normal fix.
Tek current probes have quite long leads 5Ft IIRC.

For hobbyist work this shouldn't affect operation, risetimes or calibration significantly.

I have P6021 probes that are quite similar and IIRC the ball is ~ 1/8 inch (3mm).
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Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2015, 02:52:29 am »
(I know that this is an old thread)

I just repaired my Tek P6042. The cable was broken in both ends, the black lead in one end and the green lead in the probe end. While taking the probe apart I was very careful both to not knock the probe and then to not lose the metal ball. But the metal ball was already lost.

What kind of diameter is the metal ball? The Tektronix part number is 214-0997-00.

Is it possible to buy the appropriate cable somewhere?

I've been down that road myself. It's a 3/32" ball bearing. The cable is unobtainium AFAIK, it's two 50 ohm coaxes with 4 wires and an overall braid. I couldn't find any new.

I've tried to make my own with heat-shrink fabric but I couldn't find small enough diameter.

Anyhow, I can mail you a few ball bearings from my personal stash of Tektronix hoarding... But they're not that exotic if you have a big enough hardware store nearby.
Hoarder of 8-bit Commodore relics and 1960s Tektronix 500-series stuff. Unconventional interior decorator.
 

Offline icpart

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2015, 02:46:52 pm »
Hi guys I found in eBay auction that untested P6042 probe. Also from pictures seems the current probe is broken because there is missing plastic switch for open the probe.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tektronix-P6042-Dc-Current-Probe-/271979183225?hash=item3f5338fc79


Do you think is that will be repairable because I read from that threat the current probe seems to be very fragile itself. Do you think it is worth bidding on this item in this condition also the condition of current probe amplifier is also unknown and  may also need repairs?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 02:49:23 pm by icpart »
 

Offline omerdTopic starter

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2016, 08:24:10 pm »
Hi everyone,
I know it has been a long time, but since I started this thread my P6042 was laying on the broken test gear bench and I almost forgot about it :-BROKE
Joe - It's really nice to see your results at higher frequencies! The potential of this vintage probe is amazing. I'm really eager to get mine fixed.
I decided to give it another try today. Unfortunately I'm still stuck at the same point: The AC part of the probe works fine and I can easily calibrate it and use it as an AC only probe, but at DC and lower frequencies where the Hall effect sensor needs to do its magic - the output I get is attenuated.
I would be really happy to know if it's the sensor itself or some stage along the signal path that's causing the problem.
If someone with a working unit can take a quick measurement to help me verify, that would be awesome!!
When I hook the probe on a wire with 1A DC I get about 0.5V just before the attenuator (and the same on J59 as the transformer in the probe does nothing at DC). Changing the Loop Gain (R24) does not change the reading by much, and when I turn it more than 2/3 clockwise I start getting all kinds of ugly oscillations.
Of course I set the bias to 0V using the balance knob and only then take my measurement.
On the collector of Q29 I get around 0.68V for 1A input, and again, changing the Loop Gain pot does very little effect.
I suspect something is wrong with the differential stages or where the signal is converted to single-ended. Either this or I have a bad sensor.
If the sensor got broken in a way it would output lower values but still work, maybe I'll just tweak the circuit to boost the gain a little, but I'm curious to know if the voltages I get at the end of the low frequency stages are correct.
The Tek documentation is really nice but I wish they would give me some numbers for testing the signal path for a given input.
Anyone else having this probe or trying to repair one - I will be happy to take measurements for comparison too.
 

Offline omerdTopic starter

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2016, 11:20:49 pm »
OK, I think I've got it repaired!
I decided to disassemble the probe tip once again, being careful not to loose the little metal ball or damage the sensor. When putting things back together I noticed that the sliding half of the sensor isn't free to move and touch the fixed half, and is kind'a stuck in the plastic housing. Maybe the plastic (ABS?) shrieked over time or I don't know what.
Also the springy metal ground behind it was a little weak, so I bent it to apply more pressure on the sensor.
I used some emery cloth to very gently polish the side walls of the housing until the sensor could fit without much pressure.
Now, when both parts of the sensor are touching the readings I get seem to be correct!
Rupunzell was right about that:
Quote
The current transformer/hall sensor assembly is lapped to optical level tolerances (millions of an inch) after potting
I performed a quick calibration and everything is spot on. The voltage before the attenuator is around 1V per Amp at DC as expected.
I still need to get two 2N2905 transistors that I blew when I started the repair months ago... I used 2n2907 for now but they are not thermally coupled with the NPN ones so I get some thermal drift when powering up the unit.
When I'll get everything the way it was I will perform full calibration, check the bandwidth and maybe extend it a little :)
Joe - thank you for all the info, love your little calibration jig!
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2016, 03:00:06 am »
 :-DD

This site gets so many posts, things I am interested get buried quickly and I miss a lot of them.   Was looking for some pictures I had uploaded and noticed you had solved your problem with the P6042.   Good job!   

I would be interested in knowing how well yours works once you have it finished.   



 

Offline omerdTopic starter

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2016, 06:50:00 am »
I got a bunch of the transistors I needed and matched two pairs where the little heat sinks are.
Performed full calibration again. The performance was well within spec! Unfortunately I didn't take any photos or recorded any data.
It still takes a minute or two to warm up and stay stable on the lower ranges, I guess it's normal.
The most important thing with the probe in order to get accurate results is to make sure it is properly locked and verify that the wire under test does not push the floating part upwards. Also taking care to degauss the probe from time to time to get rid of residual magnetism does only good.
As to the bandwidth I have decided not to modify anything right now, I use it mostly around 10-100 kHz where the performance is excellent. Maybe as a future project when I will have time to take it apart again :)
This is a really nice piece of gear, probably the oldest on my bench and yet a very useful instrument with no modern alternative at a reasonable price.
Once it has warmed up and the line is nice and centered I  know I can trust it.
Hope others find this thread useful  ;D
Omer
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2016, 07:41:10 pm »
I spent a few days attempting to match transistors.   Getting a tight enough set took some time but worth it.   

Offline omerdTopic starter

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2016, 10:15:29 am »
I don't have a good old curve tracer, so either I do it manually or set up a little LabView app and do some automation.
I'm happy with the performance the way it is now, I did try to match V-I curves but did not go through full performance tests taking thermal drift into account etc. I could have done better I guess :)
 

Offline ehobby

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2022, 05:47:59 am »
In the interest in not starting yet another thread on the P6042 I will add to this one.

I have just fixed my P6042 which was an auction parts only unit. It was also one with the cable broken at both ends about 1.5 inches from the amplifier and about 2 inches from the probe. Once the broken sections were cut out, it was not hard to reattach the ends, but time consuming. I would suggest you not try to attach the two shielded wires at the probe end directly to the coil on the socket. Leave about half an inch length in the wires coming from the probe plug and splice the wires to the new cable and shrink-rap. The coil at the socket is delicate and probably hard to find if the little wires break. The other four wires are easy to attach to the socket in the probe.

I am impressed with how well it works now, though like others, it has some drift. Accuracy seems to be very good for AC and DC.

I have not seen the cable described correctly so will pass along what it is made of in case you want to try to find a replacement.
It has seven #26 stranded wires. Two have their own braided shields (for the 50 turn high frequency AC pickup) and then all seven are in an overall braided shield.

There is no coax used in the probe interconnect cable. It might be that four shielded twisted pairs might work for the cable but the wires must be stranded for flexibility. It would be interesting if someone tried just a standard 8 wire cable or a four pairs twisted wire to see how they perform, since the original cable seems to unobtainable.

Regards
 
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Offline Hamelec

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Re: Tektronix P6042 Current Probe Repair
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2022, 08:18:00 am »
I spent a few days attempting to match transistors. 

How did you matched them? with a Curve Tracer? according hfe? thermal behavior?
 


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