UPS - APC SUA 2200

[karkera]

Dear All,

Best wishes to all of you here.... I am facing some problems with the APC SUA 2200 UPS system... The board PCB is "4G 3KVA PINTO TOWER Ass'y No. 640-0800E_REV05"... and have attached the pix of this....

The unit just starts, on pressing the ON button, beeps twice and shuts down, had the new battery replaced into it...same problems... then checked the boards, there were many electrolytic caps and smd caps (C105, C59 AND C64) with off values.... so had replaced them.... The MOSFETS on NS1, HS2, HS3 and HS4 have removed them and checked they seem to be fine..., however the resistor R11 (value 0.33E, 3W) had burnt out, this was replaced with same value....

 There was a problem with Q 23 (marked as 12W- seems to be 2N7002 MOSFET as per smd code) near T2, but have yet to put it ON....

ON is pressed with only battery power, the unit just clicks (LED's come ON for a very brief moment say < 1 sec) and fan starts and shuts down...this is random behaviour...meaning to say that it occurs sometimes not all all time when the ON switch is pressed...

When unit is connected to POWER AC, and physical trigger given by just touching the areas around IC 13, Q59, Q45, the unit starts with POWER AC LED blinking and the unit enters the BATTERY ON state (that is provides power through batteries as if there is no AC present), when I remove the power and connect back again...the unit remains dead...

I am really tied up with this unit because of need of a schematic diagram.... Is this a software problem??? If so when is powerchute needed?

Can someone help me out with schematics / guides for the same will be grateful.....

Many Thanks in advance....

Karkera

[tautech]

What is IC13? This may provide a clue to how it powers up.

[karkera]

Hi Tautech,

IC 13 IS 393,, however there is an IC 3843 which I replace with 3843B,  doesnt make any difference?
with regards,
karkera

[tautech]

What is IC13? This may provide a clue to how it powers up.

DIP ? SOIC ? SOT IC ? Pin count? Identifying marks ?
You can see it, but we can't.

BTW welcome to the forum.

[karkera]

It is 8 pin have attached the datasheet,  alsoTL 3843 is 8 pin both sre SOIC type.
Attached is datasheets of 3843 slso... the micro is 87C51 type.... do you hsve schematics of SUA I am stuck since a week on this!

[tautech]

Sorry no schematic.
Can you test the PWM controller is working? (3843)
Has it got a V+ supply voltage?
Is the FB circuit working?
Guessing that there is a SMPS that it controls which supplies circuitry and charges batteries?

[karkera]

+6V appears at the cathode of both diodes connected to the H bridge, also from 3843 i  presume 24v is generated and is available at the drain of IRF 740  ... However the time for checking is so less hardly 3 to 5 seconds after relay click sound... i dont know which relay clicks.... the unit shuts down..
Since the absence of a block diagram i just cant make out what is the path of signal flow...have taken out the board and externally installed the transformers.....including batteries. ..

[justanothercanuck]

Some UPSes won't run without a load, or if you use the wrong PSU in your computer (active PFC is a... well...  ), the UPS will detect no load and instantly shut down the second mains cuts out.

What are you testing it with?  If you got a lamp handy, it should be enough load for it to work with no mains input.

[karkera]

But APC has a self test function without any load too it should boot up... only with batteries. ... ! I seen the same model earlier it boots up under self test function. ..

[karkera]

Hi Tautech,

Checked the TL3843 pin 6 output..shows the pulse @ 72khz, but occurs only when the ON switch is pressed and then the pin checked with a scope.

Also there is a xtal (maybe 16MHZ) the waveform is too bad for a xtal...this is near the microcontroller...

Any other hints please go through ...

Regards

[tautech]

Hi Tautech,

Checked the TL3843 pin 6 output..shows the pulse @ 72khz, but occurs only when the ON switch is pressed and then the pin checked with a scope.

Any other hints please go through ...

So 3843 is powered when the button is pressed, good.
Monitor pin 7 when button is released, it must be 7 V min to continue running according to datasheet.

[karkera]

HI Tautech,

You mean the Vcc supply voltage???.... now whats happened is that i connected the scope to one of the end of the xtal, when ON is pressed the led's lights up, then all of a sudden there was a little spark at the HS1 - H bridge, (I had connected the batteries with a MCB rated at 10A for safety) and when I checked the  3 MOSFETS at first two banks were short.... I have got the replacement ready with me... so I will replace them...but I am surprised why did it happen???

Any ideas clues for this??
Regards.

[karkera]

Hi Tautech Sir,

Whats this link talking about.....battery causing some problems even if new?

http://technician-john.blogspot.in/2012/11/troubleshooting-apc-ups-and-other-upss.html
Regards

[tautech]

You mean the Vcc supply voltage?

Yes TL3843 Pin 7 Vcc, it must be 7 V min to continue running according to datasheet.

[nukie]

Hi I repaired several APC models IC TL3843 is pretty tough haven't found a burned one. Check all resistors I find the 0603 resistors on APC ups fail with no visual changes.

[karkera]

Hi Nukie,

Can you please guide me which resistors to check..... would be grateful for schematics too... model is SUA 22OO. ..board no... have posted the pics...

could you please confirm the EEPROM going bad?....
REGARDS

[karkera]

Hi,

Please guide me about the resistors to be checked ..... would be grateful, since i am stuck and really in a fix position to have this unit running.... hope that eeprom isnt bad???

Regards

[karkera]

Regardsuthor=nukie link=topic=36392.msg514005#msg514005 date=1410867185]
Hi I repaired several APC models IC TL3843 is pretty tough haven't found a burned one. Check all resistors I find the 0603 resistors on APC ups fail with no visual changes.
[/quote]

Hi,

have checked all smd resistors they seem fine.... whats datasheets for 361-0025V2 and 361-0015A on board IC No 21 and 19 respectively. ...please guide would be grateful.

Regards

[karkera]

Hi Tautech,

Checked the TL3843 pin 6 output..shows the pulse @ 72khz, but occurs only when the ON switch is pressed and then the pin checked with a scope.

Any other hints please go through ...

So 3843 is powered when the button is pressed, good.
Monitor pin 7 when button is released, it must be 7 V min to continue running according to datasheet.

Hi Tautech Sir,


whats datasheet for 361-0025V2 and 361-0015A on board ic no. 21 and 19 respectively they are connected to HIP 40 21B.....


Please guide

Regards

[tautech]

Hi Tautech,

Checked the TL3843 pin 6 output..shows the pulse @ 72khz, but occurs only when the ON switch is pressed and then the pin checked with a scope.

Any other hints please go through ...

So 3843 is powered when the button is pressed, good.
Monitor pin 7 when button is released, it must be 7 V min to continue running according to datasheet.

whats datasheet for 361-0025V2 and 361-0015A on board ic no. 21 and 19 respectively they are connected to HIP 40 21B.....

Sorry there is not enough information to go on.
What are these IC's? What package type?
Can you post a photo?

[karkera]

Hi Tautech Sir,

The fotos are attached please see it...?

Regards

[karkera]

Hi Tautech Sir

after replacement of MOSFET FB 4710.. at HS1 and HS 2, the ups responded to input power.. for a very brief moment, to say that the LINE detection LED was steady,  say for about 4 to 5 mins, thought its fine, however the UPS does not respond to the continous press of the ON switch to know whether the batteries are OK or no,  after this when the mains are disconnected so as to run the UPS on batteries,  there is no response from the unit...just a brief LED lighting , click of the relay and then shutdown.... 

Can you tell me whats the matter for such behaviour... have checked all smd resistors. .. all are fine... now what. ....?

Regards

[tautech]

after replacement of MOSFET FB 4710.. at HS1 and HS 2, the ups responded to input power.. for a very brief moment, to say that the LINE detection LED was steady,  say for about 4 to 5 mins, thought its fine, however the UPS does not respond to the continous press of the ON switch to know whether the batteries are OK or no,  after this when the mains are disconnected so as to run the UPS on batteries,  there is no response from the unit...just a brief LED lighting , click of the relay and then shutdown.... 

Can you tell me whats the matter for such behaviour... have checked all smd resistors. .. all are fine... now what. ....?

It would seem the battery detection is failing.
You will have to study and inspect it to understand how it works , then hopefully you can find the fault. I can not offer any further understanding without a schematic.
You must work through a fault finding process, identify the components, what they do and hopefully the fault will become apparent.

Post your results to help others.

[dom0]

Denver Coder Answer

These two ICs (361-0015 and 361-0025 / 361-0025V2) are replaced by the more well-known APC2010 and APC2020 ASICs. I don't know if they are exactly the same part, but the have the same pinout and the circuitry surrounding them is virtually the same across models.

These chips implement an APC patent from the early 90s were they figured out they could use the stray inductance of the primary transformer to use it as a boost converter to charge the batteries. At least in my units this is not exactly energy efficient, but then again none of these APC units are.

They are true analog/mixed-signal ASICs; and no commercially available chip implements anything like this.

APC schematics were DMCA'd out of the web a number of years ago, but with careful googling you can still turn them up or ask people who seem to possess them. From all I've gathered the main circuit has been the same across a great number of models, but sometimes, probably when they transferred the design between EDA solutions, parts are renumbered. If you can match up the part numbers with your boards, you probably have a well-matching schematic even if the schematic is not for your exact model.