Author Topic: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters  (Read 20818 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline madiresTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7764
  • Country: de
  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« on: July 01, 2012, 08:06:47 pm »
Hi!

Currently I'm looking for a bench multimeter with 5-1/2 or 6-1/2 digits and matching accuracy. The most interesting DMMs with a nice value/price ratio I found are the Tongui TH1951, Tongui TH1961 and the Picotest M3510A/M3511A. I already read an older thread about the TH1961, but would be happy to hear about any experience with the DMMs above. There's a lot of negative feedback for Rigol DMMs, so I won't consider them. Also, Fluke isn't an option since their stuff is quite overpriced in the EU and I don't support such rip-off. I prefer to buy my tools within the EU due to warranty issues.

Best regards
 madires
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13746
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2012, 08:39:57 pm »
Keep an eye out for a used HP/Agilent 34401A
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline sotos

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 257
  • Country: gr
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2012, 09:56:05 pm »
Hi!

Currently I'm looking for a bench multimeter with 5-1/2 or 6-1/2 digits and matching accuracy. The most interesting DMMs with a nice value/price ratio I found are the Tongui TH1951, Tongui TH1961 and the Picotest M3510A/M3511A. I already read an older thread about the TH1961, but would be happy to hear about any experience with the DMMs above. There's a lot of negative feedback for Rigol DMMs, so I won't consider them. Also, Fluke isn't an option since their stuff is quite overpriced in the EU and I don't support such rip-off. I prefer to buy my tools within the EU due to warranty issues.

Best regards
 madires


Hello I have one, and want to sell it. Its brand new in the box, I will take some pictures and sell it in EBay. If you can wait 3 – 4 days and you are still interested, I can notify you.

Sotiris.
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8517
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2012, 09:59:37 pm »
bingo. 34401 is the gold standard. That , or a keithley 2001 or 2002

Agilent :
34401
34405
34410
34411

Keithley:
2001
2002


Don't mess around with the old hp 3456. They go cheap on ebay but are big and bulky and very old.

One more thing. Don't fall for vendors that list stuff as NIST calibrated ... NIST does not perform any calibration of equipment ! you can have a nist-traceable calibration. NIST will only verify reference cells and transfer standards . Those are then used to calibrate equipment. it is NOT NIST doing the calibration !
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

alm

  • Guest
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2012, 10:49:38 pm »
Don't forget the Keithley 2000. Avoid the Keithley 2100, it was an outsourced design with limited support/documentation and some annoying firmware bugs that were never fixed as far as I know.

Don't mess around with the old hp 3456. They go cheap on ebay but are big and bulky and very old.
Very old or very well aged? ;)
 

Offline T4P

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3697
  • Country: sg
    • T4P
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2012, 05:10:28 am »
Hi!

Currently I'm looking for a bench multimeter with 5-1/2 or 6-1/2 digits and matching accuracy. The most interesting DMMs with a nice value/price ratio I found are the Tongui TH1951, Tongui TH1961 and the Picotest M3510A/M3511A. I already read an older thread about the TH1961, but would be happy to hear about any experience with the DMMs above. There's a lot of negative feedback for Rigol DMMs, so I won't consider them. Also, Fluke isn't an option since their stuff is quite overpriced in the EU and I don't support such rip-off. I prefer to buy my tools within the EU due to warranty issues.

Best regards
 madires

Actually Rigol ain't half bad, and as for TongHui there's a sharp possibility it's a rebranded product

But in any case if you want a good bench DMM, use those that FE mentioned, Agilent makes really good stuff
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8517
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2012, 05:14:13 am »
amen to that. their 3458A is a thirty year old design and still the rolls-royce under the meters.

It is still the machine used to calibrate the calibrators :)

Although fluke now released a new one a couple of years ago that is slightly better.


one day... one day... ah, one can only dream.
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline bingo600

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1988
  • Country: dk
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2012, 05:38:01 am »
34401A - Ebay : 140786285589
Slovenia - Also EU

/Bingo
 

Offline Bored@Work

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3932
  • Country: 00
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2012, 04:15:46 pm »
A Tonhui has been shown here, and it was surprisingly well build. It looked pretty much like it was an original Tonghui design. But yes, it has no pedigree.

One Rigol shown here in the past was an absolute disaster. It looked like a pre-production prototype. Another one shown her looked okish.
I delete PMs unread. If you have something to say, say it in public.
For all else: Profile->[Modify Profile]Buddies/Ignore List->Edit Ignore List
 

Offline robrenz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3035
  • Country: us
  • Real Machinist, Wannabe EE
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2012, 05:04:25 pm »
Hugoneous  did  a hour long video review of the rigol 6.5 digit.  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/product-reviews-photos-and-discussion/video-review-rigol-dm3068-6-5-digit-digital-multimeter/msg125265/#msg125265 He likes it.  Worth taking a look at least.

BTW, I love my 8846A

Offline saturation

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4787
  • Country: us
  • Doveryai, no proveryai
    • NIST
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2012, 06:58:33 pm »
Poor 3456a!  See older discussions on eevblog for pros and cons.

As alm suggests, if you're a hobbyist, the 3456a will give you the same accuracy for VDC and ohms as the 34401a but at a slower reading rate, but much more user serviceable.  The VAC is fairly mundane and it has no amp range. 

Working uncalibrated units sell for $30-200 on eBay, versus $600-1000 for the 34401a, which is still in production.  Abuse aside, the typical, if not, uncommon failure of 3456a over time is a PSU electrolytic cap, it will give error -4 on self test.  Avoid the 2015Axxxxx serial numbers if you can, because the earliest run of them had defective eproms that have lost data with age [ any pic of the 2015Axxxxx series rear case will show a fan cage, which was removed in the later versions.]  Fewer parts in the 3456a are unobtanium compared to the 33401a [ but you can send it back to Agilent for repairs.]  If you need more than just high accuracy VDC and ohms, clearly look elsewhere.   I paid $50 x 2, $100, and a calibrated one for $150, for 4 units; 3 years later one died with the -4 error and I'm in the process of replacing the cap.


Don't forget the Keithley 2000. Avoid the Keithley 2100, it was an outsourced design with limited support/documentation and some annoying firmware bugs that were never fixed as far as I know.

Don't mess around with the old hp 3456. They go cheap on ebay but are big and bulky and very old.
Very old or very well aged? ;)
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline madiresTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7764
  • Country: de
  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2012, 10:30:21 pm »
Hi!

Thanks for the great feedback so far! I'm curious about the upcoming take-it-apart of the Rigol DM3068. Maybe I should have another look at the Rigol DMMs. The user defined sensor feature is really a great idea. Regarding Picotest someone told me that their flagship, the M3500A, is repackaged by Agilent or Fluke.

Cheers
 madires
 

alm

  • Guest
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2012, 01:50:45 am »
You're probably referring to the fact that both Picotest and Keithley rebadge the Array M3500A (Keithley calls it the Keithley model 2100). There have been a number of complaints about firmware issues in the Keithley 2100 that the Keithley engineers were unable to fix (probably no access to the firmware). If Keithley couldn't get the Array engineers to fix it, than I doubt the Picotest version is going to be any better.
 

Offline slburris

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 542
  • Country: us
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2012, 09:34:55 pm »
I have the Fluke 8502A and Fluke 8505A both were eBay finds and match each other within a few counts of the last digit.  They seem to be rock solid and they seem to be at least as accurate as the voltage and resistance standards I have access to.

Scott
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8517
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2012, 10:32:31 pm »
the M3500A, is repackaged by Agilent or Fluke.

no way. forget that. Agilent doesn't rebadge that stuff. their ow cost designs are made by the company they absorbed a few years ago. They are all in-house designs.
even the low end cheapo scopes built by rigol for them are agilent only. you will not find these under a different name. They don't play that game.

i must say i am shocked beyond belief that keithley sells this under their name while it is an Array design ... Oh how deep the great have fallen ... a sad day in history indeed.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 10:34:40 pm by free_electron »
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 26906
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2012, 10:45:24 pm »
Isn't Keithley part of Tektronix these days? Anyway, what I've seen from Array is not bad at all.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline nanofrog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5446
  • Country: us
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2012, 10:55:21 pm »
Tektronix (Danaher) now owns Keithley.

Not sure what's going to happen of this though (mold Keithley into a step up from Fluke, drop Fluke from bench DMM's entirely, or something else).
 

Offline nukie

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 799
  • Country: au
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2012, 02:27:29 am »
Keighley 2000 is one of my most reliable multimeter. Its aged well and it hasn't drifted a single digit for pass 5 years. It's very impressive lm399. The design was no doubt influenced by the hp34401a looking at the internal hardware. Pretty annoyed and disappointed when I first learned they rebadge units.

tapatalk
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8517
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2012, 03:23:52 am »
The Danaher corporation 'borged' Tektronix , Fluke and Keithley ... and went through the product lines with a bazooka.

I believe the Keithley 2000 is slightly older than the 34401 and the 2001 and 2002 were the answer to the 34401.
As far as keitlheyt being influenced by Agilent. I don;t think so. These are real Keithley designs. Not only are the guts of these machines very different , they use totally different measurement principle. I the keiltey A/D is a pipelined SAR while agilent is multislope. Keithley must have had serious problems when designing their unit as the actual A/D convertor is a separate module that plugs in to the main board. They use an Actel CPLD and discrete opamps to make this thing.

All these machines use LM199 reference zeners and an AD637 as true RMS convertor.
Range switching, input scaling, ohms current sources are done using an in-house designed and fabbed asic for Agilent. A silicon substrate, laser trimmed hybrid makes the precision divider in Agilent. Also built in their semiconductor fabs.

The keithley machines (i'm talking 2001 and 2002 .. im not very familiar with the 2000 ) build all that stuff with discrete opamps and caddock or bourns thin film alox resistors. Switching is done useing DG442 style analog muxes.
The Keithley 2001 and 2002 has maybe 50 ic's to do all that work. in Agilent there's 2...
The problem is temperature drift...

Keithley had problems with a whole slew of 2001's due to a design flaw in the power supply. the rectifiers were built using MELF glass body 1n4001's. once in a while these would go in short , taking out half the power supply ( they have like 6 voltage all derived from one rectifier... ) , frying all the traces underneath the fat capacitors close to the rectifier.
i've seen 5 or 6 with that problem. ( we had a stack of those that died ... i tried fixing em in a spare moment.. this was years ago. like 2002 or so .)
They typically died when switching them on. i don't know if it was the inrush current that killed the diodes over time . fact was they went out with a sharp 'pet' sound and smoke came out. the mains fuse didn't blow... They eventually fixed this. we got new ones.

Keithley made good instruments... So sad to se that they now have fallen to the point of selling a wingpangpong with their name on it..
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline T4P

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3697
  • Country: sg
    • T4P
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2012, 04:24:36 am »
Whether Array is wing-wang-pong or not ( They are from Taiwan, not China so they aren't WWP )
It's still very bad for Keithley to rebrand.
 

Offline nukie

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 799
  • Country: au
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2012, 02:05:57 pm »
My apologies if I have supplied the wrong information. I looked inside my Keithley 2000, and to me the parts look like late design so it makes me think it is younger than HP. Also, a lot of parts(relays etc) looked like they borrowed directly from HP34401A but no doubt many of the A/D conversion is different. My oldest HP34401A is 21 years old judging by the date code and the date on the aluminium shield.
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8517
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2012, 03:38:43 pm »
Post a pictureof the guts of the 2000.
That way we can do. A teardown and circuit explanation
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline reagle

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 554
  • Country: us
    • KuzyaTech
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2012, 01:10:22 am »
What about older Flukes? I am rather fond of my 8842A- cheap and very well built 5 1/2 digits. Also Fluke 45s

Offline nukie

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 799
  • Country: au
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2012, 03:05:12 am »
No problem I will start a new thread on the Keithley 2000

tapatalk
 

Offline reagle

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 554
  • Country: us
    • KuzyaTech
Re: 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 digits bench multimeters
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2012, 02:13:53 am »


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf