any new, affordable small drill press for PCB via drilling options?

[tronde]

If you can manage to keep the run-out under control, you save big with tungsten carbide. If possible, start the drill motor at low RPM and observe. If visible run-out, just loosen the chuck and re-tighten it. Sometimes you must try several tmes, but you will get it right in the end. The fact that a school using cheap equipment fail with tungsten carbide is not a proof of much. Almost everyrthing can be damaged in that environment. Be patient, and you will be rewarded big. No very expensive equipment is needed, but a good chuck or collets are where you should put your money. I use a rather cheap 30 year old 12VDC Dermel-like drill that happens to fit the Proxxon collets. They made a huge difference from the original, but I used them for more than 20 years, so no need to complain. I struggled with run-out, but with patience I had no problem doing more that 1000 holes with them either.

[tautech]

If you can manage to keep the run-out under control, you save big with tungsten carbide. If possible, start the drill motor at low RPM and observe. If visible run-out, just loosen the chuck and re-tighten it. Sometimes you must try several tmes, but you will get it right in the end. The fact that a school using cheap equipment fail with tungsten carbide is not a proof of much. Almost everyrthing can be damaged in that environment. Be patient, and you will be rewarded big. No very expensive equipment is needed, but a good chuck or collets are where you should put your money. I use a rather cheap 30 year old 12VDC Dermel-like drill that happens to fit the Proxxon collets. They made a huge difference from the original, but I used them for more than 20 years, so no need to complain. I struggled with run-out, but with patience I had no problem doing more that 1000 holes with them either.

There was no mention of cheap.

What size is the boss on a Tungsten bit, 1/8" ? My Dremel came with a 1/8" collet and holder and no doubt they're available as an accessory.

Yes, as as has already been mentioned the Dremel press has some small slop.......sideways and this can be used to advantage in aligning to the pad centers......small movement of the lever will move the bit laterally.

[tronde]

If you can manage to keep the run-out under control, you save big with tungsten carbide. If possible, start the drill motor at low RPM and observe. If visible run-out, just loosen the chuck and re-tighten it. Sometimes you must try several tmes, but you will get it right in the end. The fact that a school using cheap equipment fail with tungsten carbide is not a proof of much. Almost everyrthing can be damaged in that environment. Be patient, and you will be rewarded big. No very expensive equipment is needed, but a good chuck or collets are where you should put your money. I use a rather cheap 30 year old 12VDC Dermel-like drill that happens to fit the Proxxon collets. They made a huge difference from the original, but I used them for more than 20 years, so no need to complain. I struggled with run-out, but with patience I had no problem doing more that 1000 holes with them either.

There was no mention of cheap.

What size is the boss on a Tungsten bit, 1/8" ? My Dremel came with a 1/8" collet and holder and no doubt they're available as an accessory.

Yes, as as has already been mentioned the Dremel press has some small slop.......sideways and this can be used to advantage in aligning to the pad centers......small movement of the lever will move the bit laterally.

No big deal, but "...perfect for the job, reasonably cheap and ...". Yes, it can be understood in different ways.

Most likely 1/8", yes. I have tried several drills with 4-slit collets (as Dremel's), but none have been close to the 3-slit from Proxxon. My experience is that it's the run-out that really matters. The forces needed for drilling tiny holes in FR-4 does not put much stress on anything.

I know both Dremel and Proxxon collets are sold as spares. As you can expect, they are not interchangeable. At least not between my Dremel and Proxxon. Dermel has been using at least two different thread sizes on the spindle, so maybe others will fit. Maybe the Proxxon collets will fit some of the Chinese Dremel clones. I know some of them don't accept original Dremel chucks. I think my old 12V is a Minicraft, and that Proxxon acquired them some time ago. Maybe that's why I can use Proxxon collets.

Today we can buy cheap linear bearings and rods from China. It's easy to make a rather good stand using them and something from the junk box. 3 - 4 inches vertical movement is more than enough so you can use almost anything with the right price. I made my own stand long time ago using small axles and bronze bearings for the vertical movement. The rest was aluminium profiles, but something in wood should do the trick as well. A spring to pull the drill up, and your finger to press it down. Not anything advanced needed for basic operation if you don't want to, or have access to tools to make something more complicated.

[boffin]

It was really hard to justify building something from scratch, or even buying the press for my existing dremel, when for $70 you can buy that little drill press from RioGrande (who BTW were awesome to deal with).

From the picture, the drill press looks bigger, but the whole thing is only about 30cm high (12" for those 3 non-metric countries), and is a perfect addition to my garage.  I tend to use 0.8, 0.9, 1.0 & 1.2mm drills the most, and got some cheap from China, so far I've only broken one bit in a couple of years.  The big thing with a drill press is keeping it perfectly straight, and while the motor on this isn't the strongest, the mount drills perfect right-angle holes, and hence doesn't endanger drill bits.

[cdev]

It looks squat and very solidly constructed, like the Proxxon.

[KL27x]

Most likely 1/8", yes. I have tried several drills with 4-slit collets (as Dremel's), but none have been close to the 3-slit from Proxxon. My experience is that it's the run-out that really matters. The forces needed for drilling tiny holes in FR-4 does not put much stress on anything.

I know both Dremel and Proxxon collets are sold as spares. As you can expect, they are not interchangeable. At least not between my Dremel and Proxxon. Dermel has been using at least two different thread sizes on the spindle, so maybe others will fit. Maybe the Proxxon collets will fit some of the Chinese Dremel clones. I know some of them don't accept original Dremel chucks. I think my old 12V is a Minicraft, and that Proxxon acquired them some time ago. Maybe that's why I can use Proxxon collets.

So.. What makes you think the collet is the difference? IMO, it's the tool that makes the difference. Proxxon have balanced motors. Dremel will make your hand fall asleep from the vibrations. Doesn't matter if the collet is on there or not. Even if the Dremel collet were perfectly concentric, harmonic vibrations would occur from the tool moving around like an angry bee, which is enough to give a small gauge drill bit whiplash (or a big cutter to have chatter).

Carbide vs HSS:
I use carbide for larger holes and for a large number of smaller gauge holes. For just a few tiny gauge holes, I'm better off just using the (dull) HSS bits and taking more time waiting for the bit to break thru the other side gently, so as not to lift the copper. The carbide stays sharper (much, much) longer, and a sharp bit punches holes faster with less dust. A new carbide bit will cut strings of FR-4 that fly off the bit, so the next hole is not obscured.

The smaller drill bits take the worst beating. My 70+ gauge HSS drill bits are effectively dull after one or two holes. But a dull HSS bit works a lot better than a broken carbide bit. My "normal" size hole is about 64 gauge or so, which I will primarily do with carbide.

[tooki]

+1 on Proxxon. Especially if you spend a smidge more and get the IBS/E, which has massively less slop/run-out than the Dremel. And then Proxxon's stands are far better than Dremel's. (If you do have a Dremel tool, you can get a third-party stand that's superior.)

[tronde]

So.. What makes you think the collet is the difference? IMO, it's the tool that makes the difference. Proxxon have balanced motors. Dremel will make your hand fall asleep from the vibrations. Doesn't matter if the collet is on there or not. Even if the Dremel collet were perfectly concentric, harmonic vibrations would occur from the tool moving around like an angry bee, which is enough to give a small gauge drill bit whiplash (or a big cutter to have chatter).

It's very easy to say it's the collet and not the motor because it's very difficult to tighten a 4-slit collet without visible run-out. I have tried a lot of different motors (including Dremel), but it's the run-out that is the real problem causing a tungsten drill do break. The motor I use in my own drill press is OK, but far away from fantastic. With the original 4-slit collet I must be very careful to avoid run-out, but with the Proxxon 3-slit collet it's no problem at all. As long as it's no serious sideways movement in the spindle I have not had trouble with broken drills with any motor as long as I managed to avoid run-out. That's why I consider the collet the most important thing. I drill most of my holes with 0.65mm but have had no problems when I paid attention to the run-out.

I agree that vibrations add to the trouble, and that I proably would get more holes from one drill without, so no disagreement there.

If my current motor dies, I would probably replace it with something from Proxxon, but you can get good results with somethinge else too.

[KL27x]

It's very easy to say it's the collet and not the motor because it's very difficult to tighten a 4-slit collet without visible run-out.

Interesting observation. I would not have thought the collet made a difference, at least with the 1/8" bits. The surface area of contact seems like it would be large enough to be repeatable despite the slits being opposite from each other. Anyhows, even the adjustable chuck on the Proxxon is high enough tolerance to work fine for me.

Especially if you spend a smidge more and get the IBS/E, which has massively less slop/run-out than the Dremel.

Doh. I guess there are four different models. This is the only one I haven't tried, yet. The 115/E is the mains version I had (which is the one I wore out, using as a table router!). The motor speed and power rating is identical to the IBS/E, so I would think it uses the same motor. Anyhow, I have experienced essentially no vibration/noise or collet/chuck runout on any of the other three cheaper models.

Taking apart the dead 115/E, I am quite impressed with the plastic used in these tools. The molding is perfect. Not a burr in sight. The plastic is very hard but tough. Everything fits together, perfectly. There's no sign of wear or slop, anywhere. In particular, the plastic bit that connects the steel spindle to the motor mates like it's one single piece. It's a shame to junk the tool... I am keeping the parts in case I can find a replacement motor. But I did happen to notice one part that was also dead... The ball bearing was dead in this tool, as well as the motor. It's a very tiny ball bearing, probably not that great for the side loads I was putting on the tool. I found the exact bearing on McMaster Carr (there's only one with same dimensions!) and bought a few for routine maintenance on its replacement. I am not sure how much the bearing might have contributed to the motor dying... but I'll have a better guess within 4 years, I suppose.

The IBS/E looks like it has a more rigid housing, particularly around the neck. Perfect for my router table. I think I'll give that one a go, next time.

[kripton2035]

Get a Dremel Workstation press for your Dremel tool, for home built PCB's it quite adequate.

https://www.amazon.com/Dremel-220-01-Rotary-Tool-Station/dp/B00068P48O

BUT how you layout a PCB has an influence in the accuracy of holes, particularly the pad hole size you intend to drill.
Keep all hole sizes in your layout small, I use 20 mil/thou for all pad holes and the smallest drill I use is 24 mil (0.6 mm) and you'll find the copper of the pad/hole edge will help guide the bit to the center of the hole.
Now this implies the bit will be bent, it is and therefore it's necessary to use HSS not Tungsten.
Don't spin them too fast either, ~ 1/2 max is fast enough.
HHS won't give long production type life, but in saying that I've never thrown one away because it's been too blunt to use.

I adjust the size of the annular ring for different components and the larger rings signal they require a larger hole. 

Dremel stands are completely not rigid enough. mainly because they are made of plastics.
you will break every small drills <1mm very fast with these kind of stands.
better look at the proxxon family, they are made of steel or at least aluminum.

[KL27x]

The proxxon is press is made of diecast alum/zinc alloy, other than the 20mm chrome plated steel rod. But it is perfectly adequate for this kind of thing. Just tighten all the screws, and the lateral slop is very small.  I fancy the small Proxxon machine vice, because it is flat on all sides, for use free-standing or for clamping the whole thing into a larger vice. And it is also die cast zinc alloy. It's quite good enough structural material to last, when used properly.

[rob77]

i can just recommend proxon - i have a nice combo for drilling PCBs -  MB 140/S (stand) + FBS240/E (the drill) + KT70 (cross table) and it's perfect for drilling downto 0,5mm holes. for more delicate work i also have a MF70 micro milling machine and i was successfully drilling 0.15mm holes (6 mils in imperial) with it.

regarding lateral movement of the dremel drill press mentioned earlier in the thread - that's not good, it will break the finest bits in no time. HSS bits can survive a bit of flexing but those are not great for PCBs...   lateral movement should be fixed. each machine can be fixed/adjusted it's just a matter of patience and adjusting/replacing components

[orin]

i can just recommend proxon - i have a nice combo for drilling PCBs -  MB 140/S (stand) + FBS240/E (the drill) + KT70 (cross table) and it's perfect for drilling downto 0,5mm holes. for more delicate work i also have a MF70 micro milling machine and i was successfully drilling 0.15mm holes (6 mils in imperial) with it.

regarding lateral movement of the dremel drill press mentioned earlier in the thread - that's not good, it will break the finest bits in no time. HSS bits can survive a bit of flexing but those are not great for PCBs...   lateral movement should be fixed. each machine can be fixed/adjusted it's just a matter of patience and adjusting/replacing components

Yes, the Dremel drill press is sloppy, but I have no problem drilling small holes in PCBs with it.

Hardware store drill presses aren't much better - next time you look at one, grab the chuck and see how much sideways slop there is.  The micro mills are better in this respect, but are much more expensive.  In addition, it's unlikely that a drill press will run fast enough for tiny drills, though I always seemed to get away with it when I used one.

[Nerd]

I've been using a Dremel Workstation Press mentioned for a few years now without any issues and find the Dremel to be a versatile tool that is well suited for small labs on a budget.

[rob77]

I've been using a Dremel Workstation Press mentioned for a few years now without any issues and find the Dremel to be a versatile tool that is well suited for small labs on a budget.

no-one says dremel is bad... i'm just saying if the lateral movement is there , then it should be fixed, otherwise you'll be breaking small drill bits while drilling small diameter holes into tougher materials (like FR4 is). .. so investing a little time into finding the source of the issue and fixing it is a good idea.

[jonovid]

US designed high R.P.M. mini drill or dremel tool , that now has many clones,  IMO is not for drill press jobs. its R.P.M. is too high.
I use my dremel clone or mini drill for cutting & grinding.   but for a cheap drill press this it . 

cheap corded AC drill, from supercheap auto - has a good precision chuck that can hold 1mm dill bits.
and a stand from jaycar   with added table clamp. from bunnings hardware.
all up $90AUD

[langwadt]

US designed high R.P.M. mini drill or dremel tool , that now has many clones,  IMO is not for drill press jobs. its R.P.M. is too high.
I use my dremel clone or mini drill for cutting & grinding.   but for a cheap drill press this it . 

cheap corded AC drill, from supercheap auto - has a good precision chuck that can hold 1mm dill bits.
and a stand from jaycar   with added table clamp. from bunnings hardware.
all up $90AUD

for drilling PCBs there not such thing as too high rpm, the machines they use in pcb fabs run several 100krpm

I guess you can be lucky but all the cheap drill stands like the one the pic I've seen are next to useless, there is so much slop
that the drill moves several mm sideways  when you move the drill up and down 

[tautech]

It was really hard to justify building something from scratch, or even buying the press for my existing dremel, when for $70 you can buy that little drill press from RioGrande (who BTW were awesome to deal with).

From the picture, the drill press looks bigger, but the whole thing is only about 30cm high (12" for those 3 non-metric countries), and is a perfect addition to my garage.  I tend to use 0.8, 0.9, 1.0 & 1.2mm drills the most, and got some cheap from China, so far I've only broken one bit in a couple of years.  The big thing with a drill press is keeping it perfectly straight, and while the motor on this isn't the strongest, the mount drills perfect right-angle holes, and hence doesn't endanger drill bits.

Did you mean this one:
https://www.riogrande.com/Product/Variable-Speed-Mini-Drill-Press/330012
Highest speed is 8500 

[boffin]

US designed high R.P.M. mini drill or dremel tool , that now has many clones,  IMO is not for drill press jobs. its R.P.M. is too high.
I use my dremel clone or mini drill for cutting & grinding.   but for a cheap drill press this it . 

cheap corded AC drill, from supercheap auto - has a good precision chuck that can hold 1mm dill bits.
and a stand from jaycar   with added table clamp. from bunnings hardware.
all up $90AUD

for drilling PCBs there not such thing as too high rpm, the machines they use in pcb fabs run several 100krpm

I guess you can be lucky but all the cheap drill stands like the one the pic I've seen are next to useless, there is so much slop
that the drill moves several mm sideways  when you move the drill up and down

When I worked in a PCBFab (many moons ago) our (Wessel) CNC Drills ran at 80krpm for 12thou drill bits.  That's the smallest we used back then. 
I use that little Rio Grande press and run it at the highest speed for 0.8mm -> 1.2mm which is what I use the most (32-48 thou). Haven't broken a bit (of that size) yet


Wessel were a cool company. Every new drill came with a keg of beer !

[KL27x]

I know PCB manufacturers use high RPM, but they're CNC drilling 100's of holes per minute. I don't know that it matters that much when doing one board at a time by hand.  I know with carbide drill bit I just "punch" the holes very fast using Proxxon at 15K RPM. But with HSS, I bet lower speed is just as good. Maybe better to reduce dulling from friction/heat, even?

Wessel were a cool company. Every new drill came with a keg of beer !

 

[jonovid]

thought- i would show my drill press setup.
as a electronics/ RC/ gamer/hobbyst I do a lot of aluminum & plastics handcrafting. so drilling pcb's is a one off if ever.
if I was drilling large quantities of pcb's then I would spent a lot more on a dedicated precision mini drill press.
im Not in the hobby to make money.  only to have fun & mod/fix the odd kids toy. 

[tronde]

A picture showing the difference between a 1/8" collet for Dremel 395 and one from the Proxxon Micromot 28940 collet set. Both bought in a shop in Norway. The Dremel is never used, but not new. Looks the same as what they sell now.

The Dremel collet seems too be aluminium. Not magetic. Seems to be moulded. The inside surfaces of the outer part (that grips the drill bit) is obviously machined and has a smooth finish. Doesn't help much when they cheaped on de-burring the slits  Since made of a soft metal, the Dremel is worn by tightening the collet. Both the outer tip as well as the part mating into the spindle becomes worn after a while. Makes it difficult to avoid run-out.

The Proxxon collet is magnetic and machined on all surfaces. It is also larger. Seems to be made with much better precision.

[tooki]

The Proxxon collet is magnetic and machined on all surfaces. It is also larger. Seems to be made with much better precision.

This reminds me: the Proxxon collet set comes in a little plastic holder. Unlike the collets themselves, the holder is not precision made and doesn't grip all the collets firmls, so the collets often fall out (annoying inside a carry case). I solved this by glueing 3mm diameter magnets inside the holder, so that the collets are held in magnetically. Works perfectly!

[neslekkim]

Both bought in a shop in Norway.

Who sells Proxxon in Norway?

[ben_r_]

Foredom also makes a drill press attachment if you happen to have one of those. LINK They have been the industry standard for jewelry makers and other small rotary tool tasks long before Dremel's got popular.