Author Topic: Aoyue 857A++ vs Aoyue 852A+ (Read 29739 times)

shadewind · « **on:** August 16, 2011, 01:01:34 pm »

Hi,

I'm going to get myself a hot air station for SMD soldering and have been looking at Aoyues products. They like a nice compromise between a no-name brand and a top notch expensive brand.

I've been considering the 857A++ (http://www.aoyue.de/product_info.php/info/p2978_AOYUE-857A---SMD-Rework-Station.html)
and the 852A+ (http://www.aoyue.de/product_info.php/info/p2974_AOYUE-852A--SMD-Rework-Station.html)

They main difference seems to be that the 857A++ has a turbine pump instead of a diaphragm pump. From what I understand, the turbine pump is supposed to be better because of more even airflow. On the other hand, it comes with less stuff.

Which do you think I should get? The price difference isn't very large so I might as well get the best one.

bobski · « **Reply #1 on:** August 16, 2011, 02:19:56 pm »

I have a 968 with the diaphragm pump. The vibration from the pump is quite pronounced (it makes the ball bearing in the flow meter buzz and rattle), so the turbine would probably be a better option if noise and vibration are important considerations.

shadewind · « **Reply #2 on:** August 16, 2011, 02:35:24 pm »

The 857A++ doesn't have a flow meter at all, will that be a problem? I'd imagine you would set it at an air speed that seems "appropriate" anyway and don't watch air flow meter even if you have one.

bobski · « **Reply #3 on:** August 16, 2011, 04:36:37 pm »

Exactly. It does give you some idea of the air flow before you actually point the nozzle at something, but the numerical markings are kind of pointless. Pointing the hot air into a cup with some flecks of paper in it would be about as useful. If the noise were really bothersome, it should be a simple matter to bypass and remove the flow meter.

JuKu · « **Reply #4 on:** August 17, 2011, 06:52:39 am »

Numerical or other, but markings on the knob are essential. It doesn't take long before you get to know your equipment enough to know that for smll smd resistors setting 1 is just enough, for a 16pin soic setting 4 is perfect and for 100pin pqfp, you want to use 7. But a simple dot would do just as well (8 o'clock and so on). I have a flow meter on my unit, but it is pointless. Ok, it shows air is flowing. Like I wouldn't notice if it not.

nukie · « **Reply #5 on:** August 19, 2011, 11:36:53 am »

While in China I talked to a few service person at the mobile phone repair booth. Most of them prefer the handle with built in squirrel cage fan. I believe its design by the Chinese and not a copy.

They said the units with air hose is not as easy to manuever but it has more power for soldering larger IC chip such as computer chipsets.

I like the squirrel handle for its parts is widely available and it is a lot smaller and less parts to go wrong.

shadewind · « **Reply #6 on:** August 19, 2011, 04:16:45 pm »

I got the 857A++ if anyone is wondering. I tested it by removing some ICs and resistors off an old graphics card. Seemed to work very well.

saturation · « **Reply #7 on:** August 19, 2011, 06:51:21 pm »

Yes, at this forum this is akin to the controversial Atten 858D and its clones. It basically a variable fan speed, heat controlled close loop feedback hot air gun to 480C. I have one myself and it seems to be a unique item to China based T&M. You can search for our discussions on the forums since Dave reviewed one like it a while back, and while it has its problems, safety mainly, it has its benefits too: small, compact, cheap and does to job. I think depending on your country, if you buy local you have to buy from what you have or buy mail order and take the risk on its quality, and possible taxes.

The other good news is its design is sufficiently low tech that its easy to repair; all the electronic parts are generic and the mechanical parts are sufficiently similar or duplicated by many clones that spares can be cannibalized and made to fit your unit.

Quote from: nukie on August 19, 2011, 11:36:53 am

While in China I talked to a few service person at the mobile phone repair booth. Most of them prefer the handle with built in squirrel cage fan. I believe its design by the Chinese and not a copy.

They said the units with air hose is not as easy to manuever but it has more power for soldering larger IC chip such as computer chipsets.

I like the squirrel handle for its parts is widely available and it is a lot smaller and less parts to go wrong.

shadewind · « **Reply #8 on:** August 19, 2011, 07:32:32 pm »

As I said, if someone is looking for a hot air station of a little higher quality, this Aoyue that I got has given me a very good impression.

bobski · « **Reply #9 on:** August 19, 2011, 07:40:08 pm »

Quote from: saturation on August 19, 2011, 06:51:21 pm

The other good news is its design is sufficiently low tech that its easy to repair; all the electronic parts are generic and the mechanical parts are sufficiently similar or duplicated by many clones that spares can be cannibalized and made to fit your unit.

Yep. My Aoyue 968 is pretty obviously two devices' worth of off-the-shelf (or at least unitized) components thrown together in one box. The pump could easily be used in other devices... No parts that were obviously molded for this particular model or application. The muffler is zip-tied onto the pump and it's all plumbed together with silicone tubing. The hot air and soldering iron boards are almost completely isolated from each other. The size and shape of the soldering PCB makes me think they just threw the electronics from a stand-alone station in there and picked out a transformer that would satisfy both the soldering and hot air boards. The hot air control panel up front is a dumb PCB... 7-segment displays, a few push buttons, switches and a potentiometer for flow control, all fed back to the control board via ribbon cables.

alm · « **Reply #10 on:** August 19, 2011, 08:36:59 pm »

They probably use the same parts as for their separate soldering and hot air stations.

bobski · « **Reply #11 on:** August 19, 2011, 08:39:22 pm »

Quote from: alm on August 19, 2011, 08:36:59 pm

They probably use the same parts as for their separate soldering and hot air stations.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Joe-90 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 13, 2011, 05:28:44 pm »

Quote from: shadewind on August 19, 2011, 07:32:32 pm

As I said, if someone is looking for a hot air station of a little higher quality, this Aoyue that I got has given me a very good impression.

Hi shadewind,

I'm looking to buy a 857A++ myself, but still hesitating for the 852A+.
Since you now have a 857A++ with you, do you find the turbine blower noisy?
Do you think it should be more silent than the 852A+ which have a Diaphragm Pump, or that the turbine
pump is just to have more maximum air flow?

I'm located in North America (Canada), where did you buy yours from?

Thanks.

p.s. Hey! This is my first post, it's great to join this fantastic community.

shadewind · « **Reply #13 on:** September 14, 2011, 10:14:31 pm »

Hi Joe,

I'm pretty satisfied with the 852A++, it does what it's supposed to do. Using the smallest nozzle, a lot of air escapes from the sides instead of going out through the nozzle tip but that's not a problem specific to this station. I can't comment on whether it's noisier than the diaphragm pump. It's by no means quiet but it's not painfully loud either. I've heard the diaphragm pump makes more noise but that's just hearsay.

I bought mine from aoyue.eu who seems to stock all of Aoyues products.

axel12p · « **Reply #14 on:** March 27, 2012, 06:25:22 pm »

I am looking to buy a hot air station too, and I am considering 852A++ and 857A++. The difference in their price is only 6 Euros. So, the only difference between these models is their pumps? Besides the noise -I don't care too much- is there any other reason for me to go for the 857A++?
Thanks in advance!

T4P · « **Reply #15 on:** March 27, 2012, 07:36:01 pm »

Turbine pumps ( They probably mean a brushless fan ) is , heck , quieter .
The bloody diaphragm pumps pissed me and a friend of , i was testing a unit at a store in china with my friend and he hated the vibrations ( That wasn't just the 852 , well it probably is inside

)
The biggest problem with diaphragm pumps is not the noise and vibrations , it's the pressure they build .
Without sufficient backpressure all the air wants to get out all at one shot when using a small nozzle , or worse come to worse , there might not be enough airflow but a hell lot more pressure to easily push 0805's off track .
I don't know about turbine pumps much but since it's a base pump unit type , the 858D is probably better since it has like a 650~700W element and a brushless fan so it doesn't generate so much pressure .

alm · « **Reply #16 on:** March 27, 2012, 08:29:08 pm »

Quote from: Dave.S on March 27, 2012, 07:36:01 pm

The bloody diaphragm pumps pissed me and a friend of , i was testing a unit at a store in china with my friend and he hated the vibrations ( That wasn't just the 852 , well it probably is inside )

Did you make sure that the transport screw was removed? This screw, which should be removed before use (big bold letters in the manual), makes it very noisy.

Quote from: Dave.S on March 27, 2012, 07:36:01 pm

Without sufficient backpressure all the air wants to get out all at one shot when using a small nozzle , or worse come to worse , there might not be enough airflow but a hell lot more pressure to easily push 0805's off track .

How does this work? How can there be more pressure but less airflow with the same nozzle size?

HackedFridgeMagnet · « **Reply #17 on:** March 27, 2012, 11:15:08 pm »

I'm waiting for the Aoyue 857A+++

T4P · « **Reply #18 on:** March 28, 2012, 02:38:47 am »

Quote from: alm on March 27, 2012, 08:29:08 pm

Quote from: Dave.S on March 27, 2012, 07:36:01 pm
The bloody diaphragm pumps pissed me and a friend of , i was testing a unit at a store in china with my friend and he hated the vibrations ( That wasn't just the 852 , well it probably is inside )
Did you make sure that the transport screw was removed? This screw, which should be removed before use (big bold letters in the manual), makes it very noisy.

Quote from: Dave.S on March 27, 2012, 07:36:01 pm
Without sufficient backpressure all the air wants to get out all at one shot when using a small nozzle , or worse come to worse , there might not be enough airflow but a hell lot more pressure to easily push 0805's off track .
How does this work? How can there be more pressure but less airflow with the same nozzle size?

I know about the DAMN SCREWS !!!

I meant if the "amount of air" isn't turned up high . A diaphragm pump is the stuff you get when you buy a aquarium pump

axel12p · « **Reply #19 on:** March 28, 2012, 08:31:15 am »

So, you believe that 857A++ is a better choice over 852A++? I can't find any review about 857A on the net. 852A seems much more popular... Maybe because its much cheaper (at least the base model).

Kilroy · « **Reply #20 on:** March 28, 2012, 12:35:31 pm »

An alternative choice of tool would be something like Steinel's HG350ESD hot air gun. For the times when I need a hot air solution this tool has handled everything perfectly and precisely.

El_Zog · « **Reply #21 on:** March 28, 2012, 01:23:13 pm »

Hi !

I've been thinking of buying a hot air station for a long time. Choosing between the cheaps blower based ones (like the one Dave reviewed) or more traditional diagrphragm ones seems difficult.

This is my observation from reading messages here and on other forums:

The pump ones:
-Are a bit more powerfull
-Are heavier, maybe less comfortable to use ?
-Seems to be more durable
-Make a lot of noise and vibrations !

The blower ones:
-Are cheaper
-Are quieter

Do you agree with this ?

Another aspect is that the blower technique seems to be a pure chinese stuff. The original hakko stations seems pump based.

What about replacing the diagphram pump by an air intake and using compressed air ? (with a regulator set to low pressure, low flow) ? I have an air compressor in my garage with a pipe to my lab, i'm already using it for a paste dispenser. Maybe it can supress the noise problem of pump stations.

Thanks everyone !

saturation · « **Reply #22 on:** March 28, 2012, 02:00:40 pm »

If you buy a Chinese brand, consider the Dave version for reasons described here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/product-reviews-photos-and-discussion/aoyue-857a-vs-aoyue-852a/msg59953/#msg59953

The problem with the Hakko copies is long term quality: the more parts, the more something can fail and finding spares can be difficult. The 858D is so simple there is little that can go wrong, and very easy to repair. You can get hand held, variable speed and heat, hot air guns that work like a hot air workstation, but if you compare costs and options, the 858D wins IF you can remediate its major safety hazards.

http://www.amazon.com/Makita-HG1100-100-Degree-Heat/dp/B00004YOKV/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332942819&sr=8-1

The Hakko copies allow better calibration and ~~a truly~~ may accurately measure air flow, but both are not needed for non-factory level work.

Quote from: El_Zog on March 28, 2012, 01:23:13 pm

Hi !

I've been thinking of buying a hot air station for a long time. Choosing between the cheaps blower based ones (like the one Dave reviewed) or more traditional diagrphragm ones seems difficult.

This is my observation from reading messages here and on other forums:

The pump ones:
-Are a bit more powerfull
-Are heavier, maybe less comfortable to use ?
-Seems to be more durable
-Make a lot of noise and vibrations !

The blower ones:
-Are cheaper
-Are quieter

Do you agree with this ?

Another aspect is that the blower technique seems to be a pure chinese stuff. The original hakko stations seems pump based.

What about replacing the diagphram pump by an air intake and using compressed air ? (with a regulator set to low pressure, low flow) ? I have an air compressor in my garage with a pipe to my lab, i'm already using it for a paste dispenser. Maybe it can supress the noise problem of pump stations.

Thanks everyone !

T4P · « **Reply #23 on:** March 28, 2012, 06:29:17 pm »

Quote from: El_Zog on March 28, 2012, 01:23:13 pm

The pump ones:
-Are a bit more powerfull
-Are heavier, maybe less comfortable to use ?
-Seems to be more durable
-Make a lot of noise and vibrations !

More vibrations = less durable .
Really depends on what fan was placed in there , it's easy to fix that one .
And once again the "powerful" thing is ... OK , what fan was placed in the squirrel cage brushless fan setup .
There's mostly always a 24V ... I forgot the amps rating but i think it has about 2W of power and very little CFM .
But nonetheless , how do you know it's MORE durable ? You had before ?
Then again both are not uncomfortable to use , sure you must hold the lower portion of the gun for the 858D but it's so huge it doesn't justify worrying .
Heavier and bulkier only on the base , in fact i don't really know why the original mfg Yihua chose such a big enclosure but only 20-30% of the space is used .

El_Zog · « **Reply #24 on:** March 29, 2012, 07:56:39 am »

OK, Thanks for the answers ;-)

In fact, I don't know if the pump is more durable, it was just my feeling after reading reviews and topics. I think I will buy the two models to compare, anyway it's not really expensive. I can't really make up my mind.

alm · « **Reply #25 on:** March 29, 2012, 05:37:31 pm »

Quote from: Dave.S on March 28, 2012, 06:29:17 pm

More vibrations = less durable .

Generalize much? So electronics are more durable than mechanical machines? I would be careful to make any statement to this effect without having enough statistics.

Quote from: Dave.S on March 28, 2012, 06:29:17 pm

But nonetheless , how do you know it's MORE durable ? You had before ?

How do you know it's less durable?

T4P · « **Reply #26 on:** March 30, 2012, 05:58:44 pm »

Quote from: alm on March 29, 2012, 05:37:31 pm

How do you know it's less durable?

I do not know .

HackedFridgeMagnet · « **Reply #27 on:** April 04, 2012, 12:20:56 am »

How about this generalisation.

More vibrations is generally less durable.

I believe it and unless there are statistics that contradict this I will keep believing it.

alm · « **Reply #28 on:** April 04, 2012, 08:15:56 am »

Everything else being equal, then probably. It's hard go imagine how vibrations increase the life span. In this case you're comparing two very different pieces of equipment: one uses a pump, the other one a centrifugal fan. Other (unknown) factors are probably far more important than vibrations in a pump designed to deal with them.

HackedFridgeMagnet · « **Reply #29 on:** April 04, 2012, 08:47:02 am »

Having just purchased ( but not received) an Aoyue 968, which seems to be a diaphragm pump I should actually be on the side of vibrations not mattering.

This is not my field but that wont stop me having an opinion, but I would say that turbine style pumps
probably vibrate less
generally have less moving parts
probably have seals in less complicated shapes

But on the other hand the Diaphragm pumps have been doing this job for years and as such have proven their reliability in this job.

If my Aoyue 968 fails soon, I will let you know.

cwhyzee · « **Reply #30 on:** February 11, 2015, 12:53:20 am »

Just for reference, I recently acquired an AOYUE int 852A**, It has a pump in the base unit and an air hose to the the wand. The noise is very reasonable and for me at least, not bothersome at all. The intake is connected to a long silicone tube with a fitting for vacuum pick up of components. Overall I am very pleased with the machine but the air hose for the wand is a little short for my taste. about 30 cm longer would be perfect for my desk.

helge · « **Reply #31 on:** January 14, 2016, 11:17:20 pm »

To people interested in the AOYUE 852, here's what I had to do today (I'll post it here to recycle the thread).

My Aoyue hot air station started acting up lately ( temperature too low by 40-50K), two dead segments on the display which added to the frustiation from the significant vibrations generated by the unit.

We spent some time reverse engineering the thermocouple and control loop circuit (TL431, TL084, heck there's even an NE555 in there) but when we wanted to tweak the pots (after disconnecting and plugging back some connectors) the unit was running again and even got beyond 500°C oO. Those two 3W resistors seem to get quite hot.

Judging by the green corrosion in the dip socket that holds the ICL7101 on the nasty digital voltmeter (which is mounted quite fittingly via blobs of plastic that have been pushed out by burning holes into the display frame) the whole unit might be suffering from faulty contacts due to corrosive flux residues.

The main part of the mains - to - low voltage isolation is provided by the stop mask on the PCB (don't bother figuring out which traces go to the thyristor/triac next to the low voltage stuff).

While we were at it we removed the membrane pump and put it back in only attaching two rubber posts on a diagonal which drastically reduced the vibrations coupled to the housing and desk.

I also used some hot air to probe the temperature stability of the circuits. The display circuit is a mess, it drifts around by >20°C. The main PCB however is surprisingly stable, not much going on there.

The unit is now back in service and I've given up on the display segments. They're gone for good.

nanofrog · « **Reply #32 on:** January 15, 2016, 05:16:26 am »

Quality wise, the Quick861Dx might be of interest (W = 110V US, A = 220V UK, or S = 220V EU so far; all of these are the 1000W versions, not the DE, which is 1200W & 200 lpm airflow).

It's a professional grade unit that's similar to a Hakko FR-810 in terms of basic design & features, but is a lot less expensive (i.e. $235 v. $750 for the Hakko in the US).

Pump wise, it uses a brushless DC turbine pump, and it works very well I find (1 - 120 lpm airflow). Not terribly noisy either. Unlike all the other Chinese made hot air rework stations I've seen, the heating element is an assembly that fits a socket in the handle (entire stainless steel tube). Nothing to solder, just work with 3 screws should it need replaced. Set the handle in the cradle, and it drops to whatever you set as a setback temp, and if left long enough, shuts off (time is user settable).

(Internal photos of an 861DS).

They make a couple of lower priced models, the 957 and the 957Dx (957 analog innards, 957DW innards). These also use turbine pumps, but are simpler, have fewer features, and are less powerful. They've a lower build cost so aren't as nice internally, but they do get the job done, and appear better constructed than what they compete with.

So if on a tighter budget, either of these may be a better alternative.

For those that would prefer the squirrel fan in handle versions, Pro's Kit SS969 is better built than most it seems.

For comparison, here's the internals of a Hakko FR-802.

These threads might be of use as well (lots of internal photos too).

Hope this helps.


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Author Topic: Aoyue 857A++ vs Aoyue 852A+ (Read 29739 times)

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