Cheap tools

[KL27x]

^Microshear flush cutters still cut even with minor dings, and most of us can sharpen them at home many times, if necessary. I'm sure true flush cutters can be sharpened approximately 3 times, or so, if they were to simpy go dull from cutting something mildly abrasive. But one decent ding is usually going to do them in. The microshear flush cutter edges overlap just slightly, somewhere on the order of a mil or two. Small dings don't leave a gap when the jaws are closed. If you're tired of throwing away flush cutters, you should try one. So the jaws cross each other like scissors (just barely); but jaws come together all at once like flush cutters. They are shaped like flush cutters and can cut as flush as anything. The Xurons I have were <$8.00, and they will cut same as new well beyond the point where your standard flush cutters have needed to be refurbished beyond repair. Like a new pair, all the time. I bought mine in 2013. 4 years of "brand new flush cutter" performance and no sign of slowing down.

[CatalinaWOW]

^Microshear flush cutters still cut even with minor dings, and most of us can sharpen them at home many times, if necessary. I'm sure true flush cutters can be sharpened approximately 3 times, or so, if they were to simpy go dull from cutting something mildly abrasive. But one decent ding is usually going to do them in. The microshear flush cutter edges overlap just slightly, somewhere on the order of a mil or two. Small dings don't leave a gap when the jaws are closed. If you're tired of throwing away flush cutters, you should try one. So the jaws cross each other like scissors (just barely); but jaws come together all at once like flush cutters. They are shaped like flush cutters and can cut as flush as anything. The Xurons I have were <$8.00, and they will cut same as new well beyond the point where your standard flush cutters have needed to be refurbished beyond repair. Like a new pair, all the time. I bought mine in 2013. 4 years of "brand new flush cutter" performance and no sign of slowing down.

Yeah, I've got a pair of "Plato Model 170 Shears".  They are just over $5 US, and they work as described above - at least if you don't abuse them.  I don't abuse mine and they have lasted "forever".

[nanofrog]

^Microshear flush cutters still cut even with minor dings, and most of us can sharpen them at home many times, if necessary. I'm sure true flush cutters can be sharpened approximately 3 times, or so, if they were to simpy go dull from cutting something mildly abrasive. But one decent ding is usually going to do them in. The microshear flush cutter edges overlap just slightly, somewhere on the order of a mil or two. Small dings don't leave a gap when the jaws are closed. If you're tired of throwing away flush cutters, you should try one. So the jaws cross each other like scissors (just barely); but jaws come together all at once like flush cutters. They are shaped like flush cutters and can cut as flush as anything. The Xurons I have were <$8.00, and they will cut same as new well beyond the point where your standard flush cutters have needed to be refurbished beyond repair. Like a new pair, all the time. I bought mine in 2013. 4 years of "brand new flush cutter" performance and no sign of slowing down.

There are 3 blade profiles; bevel, semi-flush, and flush. Bevel lasts the longest, but also leaves the largest spike. Semi-flush lifespan is nearly identical to bevel, but leaves a very minor sized spike. Full flush are the most delicate, so have the shortest lifespan but leave no spike at all. Personally, I go for semi-flush except when they're not available.

And they can still cut with dings as well, but it's dings that are by far the reason for re-sharpening rather than abrasion (copper is softer than hardened steel after all  ).

[KL27x]

 As far as I can tell from 1 minutes of search and skim, microshear == semi-flush.

And yeah, I was mistaken when I said they cut "as flush as anything." You're right. They leave a little "spike." I would think this could matter when making jewelry or the iike.

[Gyro]

And they can still cut with dings as well, but it's dings that are by far the reason for re-sharpening rather than abrasion (copper is softer than hardened steel after all  ).

I thought the dings were for wire stripping. 

These days, when half the time you're dealing with plated steel rather than soft copper component leads, it's worth having a cheapish pair of cutters with TC inserts for non-critical stuff. There are loads on ebay if you search for 'wire cutters TC'. Most are for orthodontic or jewelry use and will happily cut spring steel without damage. There are pliers too.

[nanofrog]

I thought the dings were for wire stripping. 

These days, when half the time you're dealing with plated steel rather than soft copper component leads, it's worth having a cheapish pair of cutters with TC inserts for non-critical stuff. There are loads on ebay if you search for 'wire cutters TC'. Most are for orthodontic or jewelry use and will happily cut spring steel without damage. There are pliers too.

Depends on how it got there; if manufactured that way, then definitely for wire stripping (spin around that wrapping post baby  ). But I meant those that came about because the user cut something too big for the cutter to handle.   

You're definitely right about plated steel. I check with a magnet so I know which cutters to use as to avoid damaging what I have (I've Tungsten Carbide cutters from both Swanstrom and Erem).

Nice recommendation for TC cutters for those on a tight budget (search term). 

FWIW, I got my TC cutters used from eBay for ~$20 per shipped.

[Gyro]

No, I did mean the unntentional dings! 

Yes, those medical/orthodontic ebay cutters are really good. I probably wouldn't trust ebay sourced ones  in my mouth, but they're great for the bench, lots of interesting shapes too. I have a pair of these though:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TC-TUNGSTEN-CARBIDE-TIP-JAWS-SIDE-WIRE-CUTTER-CUTTING-JEWELLERY-JEWELRY-PLIERS-/151610569656?hash=item234cb1b3b8:g:HfQAAOSwPYZU-QAj

The box joint is a little loose, but I did actually cut a coil spring with them the other day and it didn't leave a mark.

This style look as if they might be really nice for fine stuff too:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dental-Orthodontic-Hard-Wire-Cutter-Plier-TC-Dentist-German-SS-CE-POINTED-TIP-/171567045546?hash=item27f2315baa:g:kXkAAOSw-7RVBvls

P.S. I couldn't resist, I'll let you know!

[tablatronix]

Buy what you can afford to get the job done. You can replace it later, and probably will if you use it. With tools you cannot really predict what you will have for a lifetime until you aquire and learn.

It is amazing what you can get done with a few shitty tools. Waiting around to buy something to save up for premium will just delay your learning or skill or project.

Plus buying cheap terrible tools will allow you to learn the difference, and find actual deals in the future. Die cast, drop forged, good steel vs crap alloys, you can buy decent chinese tools if you know what to look for, and sometimes smell.

I buy tools at wallgreens, dollar general, tractor supply crap bins. And luck out now and then. Sometimes you even get the same thing branded for triple the price. If you use it everyday buy a nice replacement and throw the old ones in the shed or hand em down. Those little stupid eyeglass screwdrivers, i have a whole drawer i buy sets for $1 when i see them, and i always lose them anyway.

Arguments can be made for power tools, but if you are not a tradesperson, it usually is worth buying the $60 low midlevel version or fathers day sale garbage.

[james_s]

I used to buy cheap tools, then I discovered what a difference good tools make, at least for certain things. I don't lose my tools, they're an investment that I take good care of and return to my toolbox when I'm finished using them. Cheap screwdrivers tend to strip screws, cheap pliers are often loose fitting and don't get a good grip. Cheap wrenches often have poor tolerances and round off bolt heads. You can't always judge quality by price, but the cheapest cheap stuff is usually crap. Even in cases when a cheap tool would be ok, I try not to support the race to the bottom culture that is resulting in everything being cheap crap. I cringe at the thought of how many resources are wasted making millions of tons of throwaway products in China that are a waste of fuel to ship around the globe and fill our landfills here.

[daybyter]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/a-list-of-recommended-multimeters/

[Harb]

Although some people have no choice

Cheap SUCKS....that is all

[CatalinaWOW]

Here is the use case for "cheap tools".  Purchased a little more than 50 years ago when I was in high school and making do on allowance and odd jobs.  Back when Japan was the source of cheap tools.  Before they moved up the food chain.  Before the US even talked to China, let alone did business there.

These still work much as they did then.  They are too large for many of today's jobs, but still get used very regularly, partly because they have trained my hands to fit and use them over that same 50 year interval.  The major flaws are the plastic coating on the handles which didn't survive contact with the family dog back in the beginning, and a loosening of the hinge on the pliers over the years.  If you look at the pictures carefully you can see the evidence of my peening the joint to re-tighten it and then regrinding the jaw tips to refine the alignment afterwards.  Not bad for something that cost between a quarter and a tenth of what a "quality tool" cost back then.

[eKretz]

Lol, sorry but those Japanese "cheap" tools are at least an order of magnitude better than the garbage that has been pouring into our country from China for the last decade or two. The difference between the quality of cheap tools 50 years ago and cheap tools today is huge.

[all_repair]

Some cheap tools are just fine.  Others are worse than a waste of money.  Unfortunately, by the time you can tell the difference you can usually afford more expensive tools and have most of the tools you need.

LOL..well said.  If you need to ask should you get a cheap tool, quite sure you do not need the expensive one.  BUT not all cheap tools are the same.  Getting to know which is which is not the responsibility of the worst-cheap tool makers.

My problem is with the "free" tools that come as bundle-gift.  Very seldom you can get a useful quality.  Being a typical EEVBLOG forum reader, I can't bear to throw them away.  SO get myself those cheap induction coil heater to harden them, grind them, sharpening them, etc.  Probably do not worth the time.  Frankly I do enjoy building the ability, and the adventure.

[CatalinaWOW]

Some cheap tools are just fine.  Others are worse than a waste of money.  Unfortunately, by the time you can tell the difference you can usually afford more expensive tools and have most of the tools you need.

LOL..well said.  If you need to ask should you get a cheap tool, quite sure you do not need the expensive one.  BUT not all cheap tools are the same.  Getting to know which is which is not the responsibility of the worst-cheap tool makers.

My problem is with the "free" tools that come as bundle-gift.  Very seldom you can get a useful quality.  Being a typical EEVBLOG forum reader, I can't bear to throw them away.  SO get myself those cheap induction coil heater to harden them, grind them, sharpening them, etc.  Probably do not worth the time.  Frankly I do enjoy building the ability, and the adventure.

I understand what you are saying about the "free" tools.  Most really are in the throw away before you waste time on them.  But as you say it just hurts to waste something potentially useful.  I largely get this out of my system by using them for secondary purposes - epoxy mixing sticks, fire tongs and other ways that I wouldn't mistreat a tool I wanted to keep.

[KL27x]

Some cheap tools are just fine.  Others are worse than a waste of money.  Unfortunately, by the time you can tell the difference you can usually afford more expensive tools and have most of the tools you need.

This may have been the case 20 years ago. But today, we have the internet. Good or bad, you may know within a couple of weeks of it hitting the market.

[CatalinaWOW]

Some cheap tools are just fine.  Others are worse than a waste of money.  Unfortunately, by the time you can tell the difference you can usually afford more expensive tools and have most of the tools you need.

This may have been the case 20 years ago. But today, we have the internet. Good or bad, you may know within a couple of weeks of it hitting the market.

Unfortunately you don't.  What you have is the informed opinions of people who may or may not have the same evaluation criteria you do, and the uninformed opinions of lots of people who think they are experts.  It is often hard to sort this out to make an evaluation.

The most obvious example is the Rigol 1054Z.  Reading the threads here you could conclude either that this is the best scope value ever seen on the planet, or that it is a horrible smudge on the whole concept of DSOs.  The true answer depends on who you are and what you are wanting to do.

Even things like YouTube teardowns of a product don't solve the problem.  I have seen any number of these teardowns note some "problem".  Which I could care less about.  But I know the impact of that "problem" on my use case.  I have the knowledge evaluate whether the "oh mys" and "can you believe thises" reflect a condescending desire to have everything gold plated, a real concern about a problem that I won't encounter, a real concern that can be overcome by careful use, or just a wild opinion.

Until you have enough skill and knowledge to understand what you want to do with your tools, and what different tools can contribute to those things you will still be operating largely blind. 

The information available on the internet can avoid help avoid some mis-steps, but the situation really hasn't changed too much.

[Brettj]

I learned the hard way about most cheap tools. Some are good, some are somewhat good, and some are crap. I would buy the best my budget would allow.
If I used it everyday I would save up and get something better. If I used it infrequently I might buy a cheaper one.
But when it comes to DMM for work I'll only use a Fluke. Why, because I need to make that what I'm working on is either the correct voltage or off.
Also I will never buy a used DMM. Why  e cause you never know what the person did to it before you bought it. Wether for home or work.

[Richard Crowley]

These are my all-time favorite flush cutters.  But, alas, not available anymore....



But my replacement favorite is the Hakko CHP-170

[tablatronix]

love those chp flush cutters, they are cheap chinese $5 on amazon
You can buy a 5 pack for the price of knipex 78s

And I do like my cheap tools, yes Ill take that $.69 screwdriver

[KL27x]

Unfortunately you don't.  What you have is the informed opinions of people who may or may not have the same evaluation criteria you do, and the uninformed opinions of lots of people who think they are experts.  It is often hard to sort this out to make an evaluation.

Even things like YouTube teardowns of a product don't solve the problem.  I have seen any number of these teardowns note some "problem".  Which I could care less about.  But I know the impact of that "problem" on my use case.  I have the knowledge evaluate whether the "oh mys" and "can you believe thises" reflect a condescending desire to have everything gold plated, a real concern about a problem that I won't encounter, a real concern that can be overcome by careful use, or just a wild opinion.

If you have no clue what you want your tool to do, you are not trying to buy a tool. You are trying to buy happiness. So go ahead and fall for whatever you hear and spend as much as you can, and try to stay none the wiser so long as you live.

The info is out there. This is a very different situation from 20 years ago, when you either heard first hand, or you trudged around town and payed higher markups at specialty stores, or you blindly ordered things from a catalog. lol. If you are not finding the specific information you need based on incomplete reviews, then you are still no worse off than before. And you can email technical questions to the company. Or you can even ask owners specific questions on Amazon. Or forums like this. If you think there is no useful information about the Rigol 1054, just lols. There's tons of info easily available. If that info isn't helpful to you... you are not buying a tool. You are a consumer trying to consume, lol. If you can't make sense of the info and opinions, then it doesn't matter to you, does it? You can't know what you want until you learn how to use a scope and what it is going to be useful for... to you. You're still better off than 20 years ago.

[eKretz]

Honestly it depends on what you're trying to buy. Not every consumer item out there has accurate reviews - you can't claim otherwise. Sometimes you can find out a lot about the things you're trying to buy beforehand and sometimes you can't. There are a lot of reviews posted by incompetent consumers, not to mention people that write glowing reviews who are only familiar with the one item they've bought and have no basis for comparison. I will definitely agree that things are better with the internet though - at least now it's easy to get loads of information to sort through and make ones own judgements. Back in the day you could ask the guys you worked with, your neighbor, your friends and family and that was about the extent of it. The sales folks were a bit better knowledge-wise than they are today, but they've never really been a good source for truthful and correct info.

[CatalinaWOW]

Unfortunately you don't.  What you have is the informed opinions of people who may or may not have the same evaluation criteria you do, and the uninformed opinions of lots of people who think they are experts.  It is often hard to sort this out to make an evaluation.

Even things like YouTube teardowns of a product don't solve the problem.  I have seen any number of these teardowns note some "problem".  Which I could care less about.  But I know the impact of that "problem" on my use case.  I have the knowledge evaluate whether the "oh mys" and "can you believe thises" reflect a condescending desire to have everything gold plated, a real concern about a problem that I won't encounter, a real concern that can be overcome by careful use, or just a wild opinion.

If you have no clue what you want your tool to do, you are not trying to buy a tool. You are trying to buy happiness. So go ahead and fall for whatever you hear and spend as much as you can, and try to stay none the wiser so long as you live.

The info is out there. This is a very different situation from 20 years ago, when you either heard first hand, or you trudged around town and payed higher markups at specialty stores, or you blindly ordered things from a catalog. lol. If you are not finding the specific information you need based on incomplete reviews, then you are still no worse off than before. And you can email technical questions to the company. Or you can even ask owners specific questions on Amazon. Or forums like this. If you think there is no useful information about the Rigol 1054, just lols. There's tons of info easily available. If that info isn't helpful to you... you are not buying a tool. You are a consumer trying to consume, lol. If you can't make sense of the info and opinions, then it doesn't matter to you, does it? You can't know what you want until you learn how to use a scope and what it is going to be useful for... to you. You're still better off than 20 years ago.

There is a lot of information on the Rigol thread.  You can use it.  I can use it.  But we are both experienced and know what we want and what we are looking for.  We can understand both the advocates and the nay sayers.  Same thing for other sources.  How many counts do you need for a meter?  You can find that on the web.  Easily.  You can also find lots of advice on how many counts are useful.  What is difficult is relating that information to your own needs when you are just starting out.  Who knows at the beginning that they will be a volt nut?

Another great example of this problem is Consumer Reports magazine, a product rating magazine popular in the US.  It is run by very earnest, well meaning people who honestly try to evaluate the pluses and minuses of products.   They attempt to do comprehensive evaluations of products and provide that information to their subscribers.  Articles are littered with tables comparing features, and with reports on tests and real life usage by members of their large staff.   But they often have significant fails.  Two examples. 

At the beginning of the calculator revolution they rated the TI-59 highly for reliability, and downrated the competing HP-35.  Based this on a test knocking the two calculators off the top of a filing cabinet onto a concrete floor.  The more lightly constructed TI-59 fared well in this test while one of three HP-35s broke.  They didn't uncover the fact that the keypad on the TI-59 often failed after a year or so of heavy use, while the HP product just kept ticking.  Most engineers will encounter the latter problem, only a small subset will run into the first, even though it is a realistic accident.

More recently, they highly endorsed the current trend in refrigerators which have a freezer in the bottom and two doors in the upper refrigerator compartment.  They based this recommendation on more usable room and easy access.  Not noting that the room, and to some extent the access comes at the expense of icemaker capacity.  Consumer Reports happens to be located in the norther tier of the US.  For Americans in the sunbelt this lack of ice making capacity turns a refrigerator into a terribly frustrating device. 

Both examples are cases where expert opinion fails to answer a question that may or may not be obvious for a researcher to ask.  Only experience lets you know these often not obvious personal preferences and needs.  Once you know them the internet is an excellent tool for selecting items satisfy those needs.