Deadly insane design (CIF FT 02 reflow oven) Teardown - rant - safety fix

[megajocke]

Don't know how such situations were handled if they occured. What I know that I have seen about 1 mm gaps shoot through under about 300V voltage. For example between pads of primary electrolytic capacitor in phone chargers. I checked that fuse box actually have in it what supposed to be earth (with white cables again as all of the wiring). But this barely makes wiring job any easier. Nobody will allow me to put earth cable on the wall in the public corridor therefore that means it needs to be mounted in the concrete wall 20m long until it reaches my apartment at all.

Nice pictures! Looks neat when all wires are the same color, doesn't it? Is this the last fuse box or is there one downstream of it in your apartment too?

But aren't the wires pulled inside plastic/metal tubes in the wall? In that case pulling new wires might be possible. Or are they really directly embedded in the concrete? 

[mcinque]

Unfortunately CE is only a symbol, not an approval mark like FCC, GS and so on: every manufacturer is allowed to self-certificate its own devices and there is no authority that test that devices before allowing to put that symbol.

Of course, if a "CE" device with a real declaration of conformity kills someone because of its poor design, the manufacturer will be in serious trouble if someone sues him, but the damage is already done.

Besides, european CE regulations strictly forbid CE-Style symbols that can be misunderstood with the original CE symbol, but China Export is doing exactly what they forbid and no one has fined them .

As Bored@Work says, the conclusion is that the CE symbol means nothing and therefore we can not state that a device is safe only because it have a CE symbol on it (fake or not) .

[Monkeh]

Besides, european CE regulations strictly forbid CE-Style symbols that can be misunderstood with the original CE symbol, but China Export is doing exactly what they forbid and no one has fined them .

There's no such thing as a 'China Export' mark!

[wraper]

Is this the last fuse box or is there one downstream of it in your apartment too? But aren't the wires pulled inside plastic/metal tubes in the wall? In that case pulling new wires might be possible. Or are they really directly embedded in the concrete? 

It is the last fuse box. I'm not 100% sure about fuse box -> apartment but in apartment itself all wiring is directly in concrete  . So either would need to rip up all the walls or either do spider net across the apartment.

[fluxcapacitor]

Besides, european CE regulations strictly forbid CE-Style symbols that can be misunderstood with the original CE symbol, but China Export is doing exactly what they forbid and no one has fined them .

There's no such thing as a 'China Export' mark!

No ,there isn`t such a thing as a china export mark ,it was just a name given to it.

The UK health and safety executive has this to say about the CE mark ,the declaration of conformity :

What does a Declaration of Conformity mean?

It is a formal declaration by a manufacturer, or the manufacturer's representative, that the product to which it applies meets all relevant requirements of all product safety directives applicable to that product.  It is a sign that a product has been designed and constructed for compliance with relevant essential requirements, and has been through the appropriate conformity assessment processes.

A Declaration of Conformity is not a quality certificate, nor a guarantee for safety. However, when properly drawn up along with CE marking on the product, conformity of the product with the Directive(s) quoted on the Declaration of Conformity may be presumed by suppliers in the distribution chain and by the end customer, provided there are no obvious or known defects.

bla bla bla . What is important is not the ce mark but the directives within it that means it has (or should have) had quality and safety checks according to the particular directives guidelines .
Not that any of that matters ,i dont think there will be a recall unless someone is seriously injured or dies .

[Rasz]

Not that any of that matters ,i dont think there will be a recall unless someone is seriously injured or dies .

You can sue regardless. I heard of competitors snitching on each other to regulatory body in my country and getting products (PC power supplies in this case) removed from the market.

[PlainName]

It may be 'just' a mark,  but it's a very specific mark. Check out page 45 of this:
Implementation guide

[wraper]

It may be 'just' a mark,  but it's a very specific mark. Check out page 45 of this:
Implementation guide

Read posts above.

[amyk]

In the first page of Google image results for "CE mark" (anyone else notice they no longer have the direct image link but only to the page containing the image? ) the majority of them are the correct one.

[PA0PBZ]

(anyone else notice they no longer have the direct image link but only to the page containing the image? )

Just checked, I still have both options: visit the page and view the image.

[PlainName]

Damn, clicked the wrong button after a lengthy post 

Anyway, instead of anecdotes about the UK H&S try this:

https://www.gov.uk/ce-marking

Reproduce the CE marking

There are a number of factors that you must conform to when reproducing the CE marking image on your product - some will depend on the specifics of the Directive that covers your product. The factors state that:

    the CE marking must consist of the initials ‘CE’ in the standard, recognisable form
    if you reduce or enlarge the size of your marking, the letters CE must be in proportion to the standard version
    the CE marking must be at least 5 millimetres - unless a larger minimum dimension is specified in the relevant Directive
    you must affix the CE marking to the product or to its data plate - if this is not possible or not warranted because of the nature of the product, it must be affixed to the packaging and accompanying documents
    the CE marking must be easily visible, readable and permanent

Find example CE marking logos on the Europa website.

I would suggest that if the Chinese wanted to reproduce a real CE mark they  could/would. They don't, because they want it to look like one but not actually be one (for pretty obvious reasons I spelt out in the earlier version but can't be arsed to do again).

[fluxcapacitor]

Many reputable chinese manufacturers do have the so called correct CE mark as they do know where to get the mark/font from .The smaller players arent going to waste time searching for the correct font sized mark on a foreign (to them) website ,and read through a english/chinese translated document regarding the sizing ,where to put the mark etc .No, theyll knock something up in photoshop or grab any image or free font they find.
Regardless whether the logo/font is right or wrong though,any CE marked document is intended as a real document.


 

[mamalala]

Marking with CE is basically just an excercise in finger-pointing. Every manufacturer or importer can declare CE conformity and slap on the sticker. However, when the shit hits the fan, the manufacturer or importer is the one to take the blame (and likely having to pay in case things go really bad). However, if they hire a lab to do the conformance testing, and use the resulting certification to slap on the sticker, they can simply pont the finger at them instead and thus shift the burden onto them.

Unlike a TÜV or GS mark, there is no requirement to have some external party do the testing and declaration of conformity. Or to have any testing done at all in the first place. If one thinks the product conforms to the applicable CE requirements, one can slap on the sticker.

Greetings,

Chris

[wraper]

Many reputable chinese manufacturers do have the so called correct CE mark as they do know where to get the mark/font from .The smaller players arent going to waste time searching for the correct font sized mark on a foreign (to them) website ,and read through a english/chinese translated document regarding the sizing ,where to put the mark etc .No, theyll knock something up in photoshop or grab any image or free font they find.
Regardless whether the logo/font is right or wrong though,any CE marked document is intended as a real document.

I would say that nobody cares, big and small players. More than a half of the equipment I have (from the decent manufacturers) have at least wrong distance between the letters.

[wraper]

Here is a label from the back of the oven. Not as near as ugly as in manual, distance still wrong. But who cares.

[PlainName]

However, if they hire a lab to do the conformance testing, and use the resulting certification to slap on the sticker, they can simply pont the finger at them instead and thus shift the burden onto them.

I'm not sure that's the case. In theory, whoever signs the declaration is personally liable for 70 million Euro. Maybe he can sue the testing house in a civil court for damages, but in the eyes of the CE paper shufflers it is the signee that gets dumped on.

[Bored@Work]

I would suggest that if the Chinese wanted to reproduce a real CE mark they  could/would. They don't, because they want it to look like one but not actually be one (for pretty obvious reasons I spelt out in the earlier version but can't be arsed to do again).

No, they don't gain anything by using a similar, but formally wrong mark. As long as it looks sufficiently like the CE mark any judge would decide that the wrong mark is just a clerical error and they effectively declare CE conformity.  A grumpy judge would decide that it is by intention, so they are willingly violate the law.

I'm not sure that's the case. In theory, whoever signs the declaration is personally liable for 70 million Euro.

I am not sure this is the case, but it doesn't matter. As long as violations are not prosecuted it doesn't matter if 70 Mega Euro or 7 Cent, or if signed by the company CEO or worker 57659 from the OneHungLo factory. And even if it would, people for which it would matter would insist on getting insurance payed for them by the company before signing for the company.

[fluxcapacitor]

Reproduce the CE marking

There are a number of factors that you must conform to when reproducing the CE marking image on your product - some will depend on the specifics of the Directive that covers your product. The factors state that:

    the CE marking must consist of the initials ‘CE’ in the standard, recognisable form
    if you reduce or enlarge the size of your marking, the letters CE must be in proportion to the standard version
    the CE marking must be at least 5 millimetres - unless a larger minimum dimension is specified in the relevant Directive
    you must affix the CE marking to the product or to its data plate - if this is not possible or not warranted because of the nature of the product, it must be affixed to the packaging and accompanying documents
    the CE marking must be easily visible, readable and permanent

Find example CE marking logos on the Europa website.

I would suggest that if the Chinese wanted to reproduce a real CE mark they  could/would. They don't, because they want it to look like one but not actually be one (for pretty obvious reasons I spelt out in the earlier version but can't be arsed to do again).

This is a French company failing to get it right though... My original point stands. Some lowly label designer or manual writer knew he had to fit a CE mark on there somewhere but didn't read this information or didn't even know it existed. They are not engineers, they don't do the certification, they are just mechanical guys or technical knocking something up. The CE mark is rather wide due to the required spacing so they squash it down a bit to make it fit.

The fact that it is wrong is meaningless, it tells you nothing. Maybe they did try to meet CE requirements, maybe not. In any case it is clear that they failed spectacularly.

It is meant as a legitimate document even though the spacing may be wrong.What the document contains is the relevent part here. The document is not null and void and "not worth the paper its written on" so to speak, just because the spacing is wrong .Its the intent of the document thats important.
Any company that has not done what their document states ,whether it has a legitimate logo or not ,should be held liable for any consequences.Any an attemp to deceive through fake/misleading documetation should also be held responible and accountable.

Getting back on track to the CIF reflow oven ,they have clearly made a manufacturing error.They`ve been informed about it and now its up to them to respond.

[station240]

The mains wiring is still dubious, should the cord grommet become loose, and the mains cable get ripped out, the neutral wire would remain connected long after the earth got ripped out. General idea is to make the earth wire the longer of the three, so a ripped out cord means the earth is the last to break. Earth leakage detectors don't trip if the case isn't earthed any more.

Easily fixed by terminating the neutral (and active?) into a terminal block. For heavy/industrial equipment the chances of the cord being torn out are a lot higher.

[Dreso12]

You can autocertify CE your equipment, to do that you must search which directives apply to your product and the norms included in these directives, mostly ENxxxxx's .

For this oven the strickt minimum in my opinion they would need is EMC compatibility and Electrical safety. If they want to autocertify they have to carry on the tests (internally or externally) stated in the different norms and keep the records of the tests results. If they autocertify it without testing and have a problem later they will be in quite big problem as they don't have any test records to justify their autocertification.

I think their equipment wouldn't pass many of the tests included in these norms and others. There are many norms about clearance in PCB routing and this is clearly not compliant with any of them.

[haschu87]

Hi,
I just bought a FT-02 reflow oven 3 weeks ago and I started to solder my first PCB.
The PCB has a dimension of 200x130 mm.
I have one problem with the oven.
The temperature distirbution doesnt sem to be really good.
The area in the middle of the pcb is soldered really fast, but the outer areas need 30 to 40 seconds longer.
I attached a picture to explain this.
The problem is that within this time some parts in the middle of the pcb get too hot.

Do you have similar problems?
Do you have an idea what I could do to get a better temperature distribution?
Like adding a perforated metal plate a few millimeters over the PCB?

[wraper]

I inserted a board with 2 thermocouples on the middle and on the side of the board and made small video. Oven is running a default factory profile with a 230^o C peak temperature. In the middle of the board temperature is almost the same as the oven reads itself, however it is much lower on the the side. I didn't use this oven a lot and only with small boards. I think metal screens should be installed to cover centers of the halogen lamps to improve temperature uniformity.

[electronics man]

This product would not last a minute in the uk it would be reported to trading standerds or it should be

[wraper]

This product would not last a minute in the uk it would be reported to trading standerds or it should be

Seems that it lasts a long time and sells on Farnell UK and RS. One thing makes me happy. If I enter CIF FT02 in google, this thread is the first search result . At least some damage is done for manufacturing such a device.

[electronics man]

This product would not last a minute in the uk it would be reported to trading standerds or it should be

Seems that it lasts a long time and sells on Farnell UK and RS. One thing makes me happy. If I enter CIF FT02 in google, this thread is the first search result . At least some damage is done for manufacturing such a device.

some body should tell them