Does your TS100 temperature measure accurately?

[Rooster Cogburn]

I measured mine on both the official firmware and the Ralim one with a Fluke thermocouple and a cheap Hakko tip thermometer clone. On both the reported tip temperature is quite a bit below what the iron itself measures. Temperature calibration made no difference. I only found this one video of somebody taking temperature measurements: https://youtu.be/DEEaLMv6dog?t=12m49s. Hmmm.

Since there is no offset feature and calibration, different firmware or tips do not seem make a difference, just curious if this is what I should expect.

[MacMeter]

I measured mine on both the official firmware and the Ralim one with a Fluke thermocouple and a cheap Hakko tip thermometer clone. On both the reported tip temperature is quite a bit below what the iron itself measures. Temperature calibration made no difference. I only found this one video of somebody taking temperature measurements: https://youtu.be/DEEaLMv6dog?t=12m49s. Hmmm.

Since there is no offset feature and calibration, different firmware or tips do not seem make a difference, just curious if this is what I should expect.

Some temp info here (reply #5 and down)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-bm235/msg1486299/#msg1486299

[Rooster Cogburn]

This is pretty confusing. So some people, including you, say they get spot on correct temperature measurements from their thermocouple, but others don't? Both my Fluke thermocouple and my tip thermometer show nowhere near the set temperature on the TS100. Also in the video I linked the TS100 measures 30C below set temperature with a tip thermometer. What's the conclusion here, the measurement equipment is wrong? There are different TS100 revisions and only some work properly?

[wraper]

Do you put thermocouple into a solder blob? Thermocouple joint and preferably a little bit of wire should be immersed in solder at least partially. Otherwise such measurement is useless. Many people just stupidly touch the surface with thermoucouple and expect accurate measurement.

[Rooster Cogburn]

Yeah, I did so both with the Fluke & Hakko clone. In the video I linked you can also see that he's getting 30C less that set temperature with the TS100 while making a good effort to transfer heat to the thermocouple.

[MosherIV]

It depends on where the thermocouple in the TS100 is and how far the tip is from the thermocouple and the tip geometry.
The thermocouple and therefore the temperature read out is primarily there for power management.

[Rooster Cogburn]

It depends on where the thermocouple in the TS100 is and how far the tip is from the thermocouple and the tip geometry.
The thermocouple and therefore the temperature read out is primarily there for power management.

That makes sense, of course. Sorry if I'm asking really dumb questions here, but I'm just trying to simultaneously understand what I should expect to measure and how I should measure.

The TS100 uses a integrated heater/thermocouple/tip system, so I'd expect the temperature difference between the integrated sensor and the actual tip surface to be pretty low. Here's Dave's review of two low-end soldering stations from Hakko & Weller, he does some temperature readings:

https://youtu.be/tlKg6rSMPEs?t=26m20s

I think he uses the exact same thermocouple & tip thermometer that I use. For the Hakko station, both measure a few degrees C off from the set temperature and he's pretty displeased that the Weller is off by 30C. And that's with old-style technology were the tip is separate from the heater/sensor assembly.

And now I've seen a few sources for the TS100 were people report temperature readings to be spot on and others have huge differences. What's the issue?

[MosherIV]

Do not get overly obssed about the display temp and actual temp.

In Dave's video he did not mention (not sure if he realised) that the Hakko showed 'better' thermal performance because the temperature sensor is next to the heater element BUT the tip is some what decoupled from the heater. When Dave put the tip on wet sponge the tip would have cooled but with the Hakko the thermocouple was measuring the heating element temp NOT the tip temp, the control loop would have picked up cooling and applied heat and maintained heat as best it can but as far as the temp sensor was concerned, yes the temp at the heater was good.

Not sure what the answer to your question is (real life is like that).
Try measuring the temp along the the TS100 tip. Hopefully the temperature is correct where the temperature sensor is.

The main thing is, can you set a temperature where it can solder.
You should also find something with a large thermal mass, this will need a higher temperature setting. Try some settings and find one that will allow you to solder/desolder with large thermal mass.

There is a lot of personal preference involved in soldering, eg tip geometry, soldering iron manufacturer, solder. Find something you like and stick to that.
I started with Weller TCP (temp controlled by the bit) and found that to be perfect. Later I switched to Metcal (again temp controlled by tips) and they work for me. I have used JBC, I can work with them but I will always prefer Metcal. I have never felt the need to have absolute control of temperature on the soldering iron. It just need to melt solder!

[wraper]

I checked my TS100 (stock firmware 2.11). With 350^o C set temp, actual temperature is 375^o C

[Rooster Cogburn]

I don't think wanting a soldering iron that actually heats to the set temperature is being obsessed with anything A soldering iron is a hot stick, and you're pretty crap at hot-stick-making if you can't make yours go to the agreed upon temperature. You-had-one-job and such memes.

The TS100 does work quite well in practice, good thermal mass, recovery, temperature stability. But I still want accurate temperature setting and readout even if it's for no other purpose than making your experience transferable between different pieces of equipment.

For instance, when I do SMD work I set a very low temperature. Soldering in 0603 components and removing solder bridges on a QFP requires very little heat. Can keep the risk of damaging components and the rate of burning off flux to a minimum. The same temperature will be utterly useless when trying to desolder a THT connector on some board with lead-free solder and a gigantic ground plane. But better not keep that temperature when wicking the solder of small pads as the heat can cause the epoxy to melt. I found that SMD aluminium eletrolytics require a bit more heat as they're often very inconvenient to solder and there's a risk of producing bad joints when it's hard to make contact with the pad.

So I think I'm doing what you're suggesting, getting some experience and a gut feeling for what tip/temperature to use. But I hate the idea of building up all that experience and then using a different piece of equipment where all my numbers are different 300C = 270C, 370C = 320C, etc.

Displaying and maintaining an accurate temperature does not seem like an exotic requirement, more like the bare minimum of what I'd expect of a decent tool. And it seems like some people are getting that result with their TS100, I just want to understand what the difference is.

[wraper]

Just updated to this firmware: https://github.com/Ralim/ts100/releases and temperature became spot on.

[Rooster Cogburn]

Just updated to this firmware: https://github.com/Ralim/ts100/releases and temperature became spot on.

I don't measure any significant temperature difference between the latest official and the current Ralim firmware. Besides, the custom firmware has been extremely unreliable for me. Older versions just crashed on my PCB revision, then there was a major bug with wild temperature fluctuations that affected a few releases and the last few versions have a still unfixed bug that completely breaks the sleep mode.

[MosherIV]

  A soldering iron is a hot stick, and you're pretty crap at hot-stick-making if you can't make yours go to the agreed upon temperature.

It is harder than you might think!
I worked on a coffee brewer and the thermal management was a bloody nightmare 
As I said, trying to account for tip geometry is no easy task.

So I think I'm doing what you're suggesting, getting some experience and a gut feeling for what tip/temperature to use. But I hate the idea of building up all that experience and then using a different piece of equipment where all my numbers are different 300C = 270C, 370C = 320C, etc.

Good to hear. Once you have that exerience, you will not rely so much on the absolute temperature reading, you will know that the setting is too low and need to up it.

[Rooster Cogburn]

Good to hear. Once you have that exerience, you will not rely so much on the absolute temperature reading, you will know that the setting is too low and need to up it.

I'm just not digging this "Use the force, Luke!" approach to soldering very much. I guess if I pull pads and fry components the iron was too hot and if it's not melting solder it's too cold, but I'd  rather just get the experience to know which temperature I need for which job and then just set that and have the confidence I'll get it. And having a knob labelled 250C - 450C is just a lot more useful than one that's labelled 1 - 10 because I don't have to learn a new scale / response every time I change equipment. And if, in the end, it turns out that temperature control is such a rocket science problem that you can only reliably get that on a >500EUR JBC then that's what I'll eventually buy. In the meantime I'd just like to know why some people seem to get their TS100 + tip thermometer / MM thermocouple to agree on temp while others don't

[MosherIV]

  I'm just not digging this "Use the force, Luke!" approach to soldering very much. I guess if I pull   

You must be reading my mind, I am watching the Starwars saga on Blueray (due to it being Star Wars day recently).

I'd  rather just get the experience to know which temperature I need for which job

That is the "Use the force Luke" experinenced solderer!
Aggreed that it would be good to know what the rough temperature is but it is not essenital.

If you want your TS100 to be accurate that is OK too.

Personally, I can go anywhere, pick up any soldering iron and know if it is at the right temperature when I use it by the feel of how it melts solder etc (the "Use the force Luke"). This is far more effective than having to go and ask "is this soldering iron reading the right temperature?". Yes, it would be nice if the read out is correct but that is not necessary for the experienced.
I am just encouraging you to look at it this way.

BTW try BigClive as well he recently did a review of some solder and he did some vlogs on Hakko clone temperature settings, measuring them etc.

[MacMeter]

I don’t have an actual tip tester, but after I played with my DMM and thermocoupler, as others have suggested, the ability to melt solder, became my #1 concern. The best test for that is use some lead free solder with its small temperature range, and see if the temperature you set melts it. My TS100 is within 10-15 degrees Fahrenheit of the melting temp for my solder tests. That’s good enough for me. Test yours this way before making any final conclusions. Otherwise you may have a bad one, first I’ve heard of one not getting close to it’s set temp.

I used some lead free Sn99.3 Cu0.7. Melting temp = 446F.

[wraper]

Just updated to this firmware: https://github.com/Ralim/ts100/releases and temperature became spot on.

I don't measure any significant temperature difference between the latest official and the current Ralim firmware.

I updated to official 2.18 and temperature became as it was originally (375^oC when set to 350^oC). Then flashed Ralim 2.04 again and temperature again became spot on. So certainly there is a difference.

[MacMeter]

Just updated to this firmware: https://github.com/Ralim/ts100/releases and temperature became spot on.

I don't measure any significant temperature difference between the latest official and the current Ralim firmware.

I updated to official 2.18 and temperature became as it was originally (375^oC when set to 350^oC). Then flashed Ralim 2.04 again and temperature again became spot on. So certainly there is a difference.

Good, info. I should add I stuck with the 2.02 firmware. Had less bugs then the newer ones so far for my early PCB TS100 model.

[Rooster Cogburn]

With the latest Ralim firmware and the iron set to 350C I get 318C with the tip thermometer and the DMM thermocouple stabilizes around 295C with the sensor resting loosely in a solder ball on the chisel. The video I linked shows 270C on the tip thermometer with the iron set to 300C. Official 2.18 firmware is no better for me.

[MacMeter]

With the latest Ralim firmware and the iron set to 350C I get 318C with the tip thermometer and the DMM thermocouple stabilizes around 295C with the sensor resting loosely in a solder ball on the chisel. The video I linked shows 270C on the tip thermometer with the iron set to 300C. Official 2.18 firmware is no better for me.

Have you tried testing actual solder melting temps as I suggested above? If not you are just going to make yourself crazy.

[Rooster Cogburn]

Have you tried testing actual solder melting temps as I suggested above? If not you are just going to make yourself crazy.

Yes, but that's not very useful as the set/measured discrepancy seems to increase with the set temperature. So at ~180C it's a about 10C off, 300C about 30C off, and so on. Basically the fact that these three devices don't agree very much on the temperature means that at least two of them are in need of replacement or I need to change my testing approach. Just trying to find out which one it is

[MacMeter]

Have you tried testing actual solder melting temps as I suggested above? If not you are just going to make yourself crazy.

Yes, but that's not very useful as the set/measured discrepancy seems to increase with the set temperature. So at ~180C it's a about 10C off, 300C about 30C off, and so on. Basically the fact that these three devices don't agree very much on the temperature means that at least two of them are in need of replacement or I need to change my testing approach. Just trying to find out which one it is

How off was the temp on your solder tests?

[MosherIV]

Check the temperature range of the thermocouple. Some that come with dmm only go upto 180Centigrade.

You can check they are working correctly (calibrated) with melting ice in water for 0Centigrade and boiling water for 100Centigrade

[wraper]

Check the temperature range of the thermocouple. Some that come with dmm only go upto 180Centigrade.

It is only about insulation, not performance of thermocouple. Even if insulation will melt, it won't prevent it from functioning, unless wires are shorted somewhere away from the joint.

[MacMeter]

Just tested again. Using lead free Sn99.3 Cu0.7. Melting temp = 446F. Set TS100 iron to 460F, display shows 456F, the solder melts on the very end of the C4 tip, the biggest one they sell. So I’m HAPPY with only a 10 degree F, difference, especially with the cost of the iron considered. If you are far off from the solder melt temps, then maybe it’s hardware related.