Author Topic: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits  (Read 18563 times)

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Offline akisTopic starter

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I have been using the Dremel 4000 and Workstation for around 2 years. I have been using it with ordinary drill bits.

The problem is that these bits go blunt very quickly and require excessive force to drill through.

Recently I bought a range of CNC drill bits which all have the same stem 3.2mm diameter with various drill sizes. These cut very well, do not go blunt, they go on like forever.

However recently those CNC drill bits have started to snap, today I snapped around a dozen! I had to revert to using the old style drill bits.

I am wondering what the problem might be.

I am guessing:

1) the collet has defirmed and allows the bit to wobble.
2) the Dremel 4000 itself has got unbalanced and wobbles.
3) the Workstation does not plunge down truly vertically and goes in at an angle thus snapping the bits

Considering that after I snapped around 6 CNC drill bits on as many holes, and then reverted to using the old style (thin) drill bits, and did not snap any, would the problem be on the collet?
 

Offline DmitryL

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2015, 07:55:53 pm »
Dremel Workstation is a plastic wobbling garbage.
I bought a proxxon drill and stand (slightly more expensive than dremel) and have no problems at all with 0.5mm tungsten carbide drills.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2015, 08:13:42 pm »
I'd definately strip the collet and clean it in case grud has got up there and is responsible for non concentricity. The Dremels are made to a price and I'd also check the arbor bearing for play, invert the Dremel and float a little thin lubricant into that bearing. Something like Inox or sewing machine oil.
Do you use it at full speed, for HSS bits I use slow speeds but I only use Phenolic PCB's that are much easier to work with than FR4.
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Offline kripton2035

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2015, 08:19:01 pm »
Dremel Workstation is a plastic wobbling garbage.
I bought a proxxon drill and stand (slightly more expensive than dremel) and have no problems at all with 0.5mm tungsten carbide drills.

completely aggree !
search on this forum, claims against dremel stands are not rare ...
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2015, 08:23:30 pm »
Yep, the dremel workstation quality is worse than low.
It really is more like a kids toy drill than something usable.

Any angle misalignment or wobble will break carbide drills and the dremel workstation has so much play in the system I'm surprised you weren't breaking normal drill bit too
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Offline janoc

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2015, 08:30:16 pm »
Get rid of that plastic piece of junk! That drill stand is semi-usable for drilling wood only.

If you are using CNC bits, they are very brittle and a slightest amount of play in the stand that would just flex the normal bit will snap these - as you have discovered.

If you want decent gear, buy one of the Proxxon drill stands, that is really a piece of machinery and not a plasticky toy. Or build a proper, stiff drill stand for your Dremel, even though Dremel tends to have quite a bit of runout, especially if you are using it for other things than drilling too.
 

Offline akisTopic starter

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2015, 08:55:56 pm »
I have found the "Proxxon BFB 2000" and the "Proxxon MICROMOT MB 200" - I am not sure I can attach my Dremel 4000 to either of these two. There is £100 difference between the two.

Also this: Bosch 2608180009 Drill Stand DP 500 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bosch-2608180009-Drill-Stand-500/dp/B0014180RO/ref=sr_1_5?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1435953613&sr=1-5&keywords=drill+stand
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 09:14:42 pm by akis »
 

Offline adranp

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2015, 09:17:08 pm »
Same problem here... I was also trying to use a Dremel 4000 and 220 stand to drill into FR4 pcb's using HSS bits... Broke a couple of 0.8 and 1 mm while doing no more than 20 holes...

I'm also looking into Proxxon tools though I've seen a couple Proxxon tools dying without any real reason..

Was thinking of a Proxxon MF 70 tool with the CNC automation kit for it... Any experience with it? Or any recommendation?
 

Offline Paul Moir

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2015, 10:08:34 pm »
I know nothing about the proxxon, but when thinking of using a mill for a drill press don't forget that the spindle to column distance is smaller on a mill for rigidity.  A little googling suggests this is 82mm on the proxxon mill, which will practically limit the size of the boards you can drill to 16cm wide.

 

Offline tautech

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2015, 10:30:09 pm »
Well, I've got one of these POS 220 stands and a Dremel Multi-pro and NEVER broken a bit, even 0.6mm. Got it only for PCB work, although it is infrequently used.

The POS homemade unit it replaced would make the drills whip around uncontrollably  :scared: so I replaced it.
You might find lubrication of the bottom bearing will help reduce any play and bit breakages, remember TCT won't bend at all.

EDIT
The throat measurement of a Demel 220 stand is 105mm
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 10:40:25 pm by tautech »
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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2015, 12:07:58 am »
I have found the "Proxxon BFB 2000" and the "Proxxon MICROMOT MB 200" - I am not sure I can attach my Dremel 4000 to either of these two. There is £100 difference between the two.

One is a mill/drill stand, the other is a drill stand.

You can get an adaptor collar (e.g.) that replaces what Dremel call the 'housing cap' & fits the Proxxon stand.
 

Offline rdl

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2015, 02:11:21 am »
I know nothing about the proxxon, but when thinking of using a mill for a drill press don't forget that the spindle to column distance is smaller on a mill for rigidity.  A little googling suggests this is 82mm on the proxxon mill, which will practically limit the size of the boards you can drill to 16cm wide.

Yeah, I have one and without measuring I'd say that's about right. The TBM 115/220 drill press has closer to 140mm throat depth and is perfectly adequate for drilling pc boards. That's mainly what I use mine for.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2015, 05:58:17 pm »
I know nothing about the proxxon, but when thinking of using a mill for a drill press don't forget that the spindle to column distance is smaller on a mill for rigidity.  A little googling suggests this is 82mm on the proxxon mill, which will practically limit the size of the boards you can drill to 16cm wide.

16cm is column to spindle for the Proxxon Micromot stands, e.g. the MB140/s  so you can drill up to about 32cm max. I don't know how it is for the TBM and TBH dedicated drills, but they are about the same size from what I remember.

Proxxon has also a vertical milling machine - the MF70, perhaps you were thinking about that one?

 

Offline Paul Moir

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2015, 06:05:14 pm »
Quote
Proxxon has also a vertical milling machine - the MF70, perhaps you were thinking about that one?
Yes, I was replying to the post directly above mine rather than the OP.  Probably should have used a quote.
 

Offline akisTopic starter

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2015, 06:08:45 pm »
I had a look at the proxxon drills and at my Dremel 4000 and my Dremel is quite the beast. I am not yet ready to bin it. I hope it has not lost its balance.

Would anyone suggest a way to measure the "balance" of the drill (for lack of a better technical term)?
 

Offline mcinque

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2015, 06:18:57 pm »
As other says, Dremel is plastic garbage. I've tried to use Dremel for PCB drilling and had the same problem as you.
Something that loose its balance after two years it's not using ball bearings as Proxxon does. Or the force you applied has stressed the gears.
Also the Dremel drill stand is quite a plastic toy.
I switched to Proxxon some years ago and it's another world. There is not even comparison. I understand that you don't want to toss that, but IMO, it doesn't worth the effort to fix it: I fear that you will never have a perfectly balanced drill with a Dremel chassis/stand.

I had a look at the proxxon drills and at my Dremel 4000 and my Dremel is quite the beast.
Hmm, no.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 06:24:38 pm by mcinque »
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2015, 06:22:17 pm »
Clamp in a vice and use a dial gauge on a magnetic stand to measure the chuck end ( place a 3.2mm drill in the collet, a broken one will do as you just want a round surface) play as you press the chuck from side to side, and then again measure as you rotate the bit one full revolution. The side to side pressure tells you the play in the bearing and the rotation tells you the eccentricity of the shaft.

If it did before and is breaking drills now the bearing at the chuck end needs to be replaced. Have fun with the adjustable reamers, I will be doing so tomorrow putting in a new shaft into a bush. Old one bent for some reason, and the easiest was to have a new one machined from a block of stainless steel. The reamer cost 10 times what the shaft did, though it does have other uses in the machine on other shafts. Should only take me about 5 hours to get the 0.2mm shaved off the bushing in there and align the shaft properly.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2015, 06:37:36 pm »
I had a look at the proxxon drills and at my Dremel 4000 and my Dremel is quite the beast.

Only if you compare it by sheer size.


I am not yet ready to bin it. I hope it has not lost its balance.

Would anyone suggest a way to measure the "balance" of the drill (for lack of a better technical term)?

Like this, using a dial gauge:


Just use a the smooth part of a drill bit (or thin rod) as the shaft against which you are measuring. You can get the gauge from some hardware stores, otherwise you can get a cheap one from eBay.

BTW, the classic video demonstrating the difference between a Dremel drill stand and the Proxxon ones is this one:





« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 06:49:35 pm by janoc »
 

Offline Paul Moir

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2015, 06:55:39 pm »
Could be a wiped out collet or gunk between the collet and shaft too.  Hopefully that's the case because it looks like the front bearing and armature are an assembly on the Dremel 4000.
EDIT:  I should point out that this is some wishful thinking, but easy to check and cheap to fix.  It is more likely the bearing that is shot or the bearing is somewhat loose in the housing.

If you don't have a dial gauge you can rig up something like an uneven see-saw to amplify the shaft movement by an order of 10 or so.  You should be able to see .02mm movement easily that way if you back the long end of the see-saw with a marked card or something like that.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 07:13:17 pm by Paul Moir »
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2015, 07:24:41 pm »
Could be a wiped out collet or gunk between the collet and shaft too.  Hopefully that's the case because it looks like the front bearing and armature are an assembly on the Dremel 4000.

If you check out the video I have posted comparing the Dremel stand to the Proxxon one, you will see that even brand new Dremel has a lot of runout and is vibrating like crazy. That could be enough to break thin bits, IMO.
 

Offline Paul Moir

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2015, 07:38:39 pm »
I couldn't agree more, and have had nothing but bad experiences with Dremels.  However the OP reported being able to use his setup successfully until recently.  Maybe his was on the good side of the bell curve.



 

Offline FrankT

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2015, 02:39:42 am »
The dremel collets are soft aluminium.  Tighten the nut by hand - don't use the spanner or you will deform the collet.

 

Offline Fred27

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2015, 08:40:30 am »
Was thinking of a Proxxon MF 70 tool with the CNC automation kit for it... Any experience with it? Or any recommendation?
I CNC converted the MF70 and think it's excellent with one caveat - it's small. If that's not a problem then it's a very capable mill.
https://0xfred.wordpress.com/category/cnc/mf70/


Getting back to the OP's issues, I went for a Proxxon TBM 220 drill press. I've not used it for PCB drilling yet, but have abused it at the upper end of it's capabilities (4mm holes in steel and stainless angle iron) and was impressed how well it coped.
 

Offline akisTopic starter

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2015, 07:59:12 pm »
I bought the Proxxon FBS 240/E drill (mains powered, 100W, up to 20,000 rpm) and the Micromot MB 200 drill stand.

There was an "accusation" made in this thread sometime ago that the Dremel 4000 was breaking my carbide drill bits because its ball bearings had some play.

Here are my first impressions of the Proxxon FBS 240/E and the Micromot MB200 drill stand.

The Proxxon drill makes less noise than the Dremel, and also promises high torque at low revs. However so does the Dremel 4000. I suspect both drills are the same quality except the Dremel is almost twice as powerful and much faster (35,000 rpm vs 20,000 rpm).

The Dremel Workstation drill stand has a lot of plastic and a lot of play. This was suspected to be a major contributor to broken drill bits.

I am always talking about steel carbide drill bits with a common shank diameter of 3.2mm. I have been using these in preference to any other drill bits, because they do not wear off. They make perfect holes time after time.

The Micromot MB 200 is visibly much smaller than the Dremel Workstation. However it looks to be made of metal parts without any plastic, where it matters. For example the Dremel Workstation has a plastic drill holder, a plastic attachment to the drill pillar, and finally a plastic pinion for the plunger action (which gave me additional problems).

The Micromot MB 200 has all metal parts and very good reviews, however here are the (terrible) faults even when compared to the silly Dremel Workstation.

1) The drill base hole, where the drill bit plunges into, is misaligned and positioned a few mm forward (towards the user) so that the drill bit barely misses the metal! How can that even be possible?! Even if I had made this out of clay I'd have positioned the base hole more accurately.

2) The little torsion screw that secures the drill onto the pillar is too small and requires considerable force to lock the drill in place. At the same time you are trying to hold the drill stable so as to adjust the height and center it over the tiny base hole, so the process is hard, much harder than the Dremel Workstation which has a large lever screw which you can easily turn with one hand while holding the drill steady. Every time an adjustment to the height and/or centrering needs to be made, it is a pain.

3) There is no easy way, no practical no way, to twist the drill horizontally. On the Dremel there is a large knob which you turn to release the angular movement, and then you can turn the drill horizontally in one smooth action. This allows you to change drill bits and collets easily and painlessly because the bits do not fall off in the horizontal position. On the Micromot it is a nightmare. As the drill does not turn you have to firstly raise it on the pillar, which has its own challenges, then hold the spindle lock in while with the other hand you are tightening the collet in place. Except you need a third hand to hold the drill bit in. A practical solution is to place the whole drill stand on its side so as to change the drill bit using only two hands. Someone forgot to tell the Germans that humans generally come with two hands.

4) The drill base is unecessarily narrow, really narrow, and it is all too easy to rock it from side to side as you are working on the job. You could bolt it on the workbench, but then you'd not be able to lie it sideways to change bits. WHy the base is so narrow I do not know. The Dremel Workstation's base is almost twice as wide.

5) Even though all metal, there is still considerable play on the drill, because of the plunger mechanism. It is rack and pinion but there is play in the rails it slides through. Almost as much play as the all plastic Dremel Workstation.

6) At the top position the plunger's handle is completely loose, rattles, with considerable play and makes you think it has not been put together properly. I may have to open it to see.

7) The rack and pinion action is terrible. It is anything but "smooth" and there is a spring that attempts to return the drill to the top position, but the spring is too weak, so the action feels kind of jerky, incosistent, and most importantly the drill does not return to the top. Applying generous grease did not improve matters. The "solution" is to set the drill higher so that the spring is well tensioned at the bottom position.

8) I bought special Proxxon collets to use with my carbide steel drill bits  (and other bits). The Proxxon broke two 1.2mm drill bits in two holes. Just like the Dremel did, as soon as the drill bit is 1 mm or more past the hole, you can feel the vibrations of the tip, and milliseconds later it snaps. This might also indicate that the drill bits are not straight in which case it is neither the Dremel's or the Proxxon's fault.

9) I replaced the carbide steel bits with the more common HSS or whatever drill bits, and used the appropriate Proxxon collets. I was able to drill two PCBs that way. Compared to the Dremel Workstation the base is so narrow and the assembly feels so light.

All in all I am not that impressed with the Micromot MB 200 drill stand.
 

Offline adranp

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Re: Dremel 4000 and Dremel Workstation 220 breaking all my drill bits
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2015, 08:10:16 pm »
Because I was having the same problem as you :akis I went on with Proxxon MF 70..

Overall, I'm extremely pleased by the quality of the mill...
I have already transformed it to a CNC (and I can control it very easy manually now) and drilling down to 0.6mm is now a super easy job...
I've made a few hundred drills with my MF70 mill - with 0.6mm and 0.8mm carbide steel bits and no broken bits till now..

I highly recommend this even if it's not very easy to drill with it as long as it's not converted to CNC.

Best regards..
 


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