Author Topic: Elecrow PCB deception? (RESOLVED)  (Read 23846 times)

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Offline zaptaTopic starter

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Elecrow PCB deception? (RESOLVED)
« on: June 04, 2014, 03:41:03 am »
I just ordered from Elecrow 10 blue pcbs with 'free color' special

http://www.elecrow.com/2-layer-10cm-10cm-max-pcb-510pcs-color-free-p-328.html  (10 colored boards, $23.90)

Then I noticed this green offering which suggests that the color option almost doubles the price

http://www.elecrow.com/special-offer-for-2-layer-1010cm-max-green-pcb-510pcs-p-761.html  (10 green boards, $12.90)

Am I missing something?

Update (July 27 2014): Elecrow repriced their PCBs. Now the premium for the 2 layer 10 units 10x10cm color is 33% over green ($15.90 vs $11.90). They still list it as 'color free'.

Update (July 30 2015): Elecrow fixed their product posting and now do not claim anymore non free color option as free. I am marking the topic of this thread as RESOLVED.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 03:48:02 am by zapta »
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2014, 03:45:54 am »
They've been running that green only option for a while. It used to all be the same (higher) price.
 

Offline Harvs

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2014, 04:14:52 am »
Well it's just the same as buying something off ebay that has "free" shipping.  It's crap, there's no such thing.  It's just the shipping (or colour in this case) has already been factored into the price.

There's no point getting pissed off about it though.  It's just incorrect use of the language.  Substitute the word "free" for "included" and it works perfectly almost every time.
 

Offline Harvs

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2014, 04:18:16 am »
BTW what's the board quality and turn around time like?  $15.90 for 10 10x10 boards is dirt cheap.
 

Offline zaptaTopic starter

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2014, 05:49:45 am »
Well it's just the same as buying something off ebay that has "free" shipping.  It's crap, there's no such thing.  It's just the shipping (or colour in this case) has already been factored into the price.

I don't see the analogy. The ebay sellers with free shipping don't let you pick the product locally (that is, without the shipping) for a lower price, right? Here you can get the product without the free part for less.

It reminds me the old scam of 'we don't charge interest but we give a discount if you pay in cash'.

Edit: Dirty PCBs can claim 'free color' since any color costs the same as green http://dirtypcbs.com/index.php
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 05:53:09 am by zapta »
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2014, 06:09:09 am »
The cheap green option is a "special"

The fab house is always going to be producing a much larger qty of green boards for customers, so it costs them less to tack your pcb onto a green panel than do a special run for a specific color

Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline Harvs

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2014, 06:34:56 am »
Well it's just the same as buying something off ebay that has "free" shipping.  It's crap, there's no such thing.  It's just the shipping (or colour in this case) has already been factored into the price.

I don't see the analogy. The ebay sellers with free shipping don't let you pick the product locally (that is, without the shipping) for a lower price, right? Here you can get the product without the free part for less.

It reminds me the old scam of 'we don't charge interest but we give a discount if you pay in cash'.

Well almost certainly.  But your right, you'll never see a Chinese ebay seller stating in their listing that if you visit their shed in some shitty lane in Baoan and give them yuan they'll give it to you cheaper, but why would they?  They just offer it to you at a total price with the shipping included and call it "free", here they're offering you a product with the price of colour included.  They both call part of the service "free", where as it's clearly not free but just already included in the price.

It's like if I go on digikey.com.au and spend $200 they give me "free" shipping.  Now if I copy my shopping basket and go have a look at www.digikey.com all of a sudden it's now about $40 cheaper and they charge me $40 for shipping.  Hence this is a comparison everyone outside the US should always do on their digikey cart before they hit buy, because you almost never win.

I just don't call it a scam.  It's just marketing words.

Anyway I reckon we're pretty much arguing the same point.  It's just what we call it.
 

Offline Harvs

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2014, 06:36:21 am »
Ok I just re-read you first post and you're pissed that they didn't tell you there was a cheaper option.  Fair enough...  That's a bit like Digikey.
 

Offline zaptaTopic starter

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2014, 07:33:00 am »
t's like if I go on digikey.com.au and spend $200 they give me "free" shipping.  Now if I copy my shopping basket and go have a look at www.digikey.com all of a sudden it's now about $40 cheaper and they charge me $40 for shipping.  Hence this is a comparison everyone outside the US should always do on their digikey cart before they hit buy, because you almost never win.

Bad example again. With your digikey example you don't have a less expensive option if you pass on shipping and pick up locally.

With elecrow, you have an option to pass on the special color and pay less so calling the special color option 'free' is deceiving.

I emailed them and got a very quick response (they seems to be very responsive). Up to 6 months ago green and special colors used to cost the same so calling it 'free' was valid. This is not the case anymore. Apparently they chose to separate them rather  than indicating a +$11 when you choose a non green color as most vendors do and they left the 'free color' claim in place.
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2014, 07:40:23 am »
I had never ordered anything from Jameco until recently because I thought their shipping was way too high. Turns out it wasn't really that, just that I kept ticking the box for the "free" catalog that added $7 to the shipping!

 |O
The larger the government, the smaller the citizen.
 

Offline Neverther

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2014, 04:20:49 pm »
BTW what's the board quality and turn around time like?  $15.90 for 10 10x10 boards is dirt cheap.

Ordered 22.5, received today on 4.6. Registered airmail so couple weeks is pretty good.
Only couple holes look to have some minor offset. Kicad default 0805 do not have silkscreen outline, 1206 has weak outline, propably too close to copper (soldermask removed -> no silkscreen), have to check the gerbers when I get to desktop as I selected "exclude something from silkscreen" when creating gerbers. iTead had outlines on both so this might have been my mistake.
Also one area (10x10mm) seems to have smudged silkscreen, out of 5 boards 2 are perfect, 2 are readable and one is almost unreadable, no big deal as this one was proto.

15.90 for pcbs, 5.80 tip cleaner for car (wire ball, has good sized ball instead of the cheapo ones that need refill ball before theyre usable), 2.80 micro usb cable and 9$ for shipping, not bad.
 

Offline metalphreak

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2014, 03:49:06 pm »
10x10cm $23.90 http://www.elecrow.com/2-layer-10cm-10cm-max-pcb-510pcs-color-free-p-328.html
There is no choice of Green for the colour. You have to choose the "special" option to get green on the 10x10cm

5x5cm $9.90 http://www.elecrow.com/2-layer-5-5cm-max-510pcs-color-free-p-418.html
You can choose any colour (including green) and it's that same price. Most other places (Itead/Seeed Studios etc) will slug you $10 per order to change to a different colour ($20 if you want black...)


I don't think it's meant to be deceptive. They probably added that Green Special option later, and didn't even think of the possible wording implication.

In comparison, Itead is $19.90 for green, and $35 for colour PCBs for 10x10cm... So at $23.90, it is indeed "free" compared to everyone else  ;)

Elecrow are my go-to favourite now, because they are usually one of the cheapest, and they keep you up to date on the production process. They also email you a photo of the package (and plastic wrapped PCBs) before posting, so you get a sneak preview!

Offline zaptaTopic starter

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2014, 11:55:21 pm »
I don't think it's meant to be deceptive. They probably added that Green Special option later, and didn't even think of the possible wording implication.

We will see if it is intentional or not. I brought it to their attention so let's see if they will fix it.

So far they still maintain it's free even though it's double the price of a green PCB.
 

Offline melka

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2014, 12:35:09 pm »
I think that as metalphreak said, it's not meant to be deceptive but mostly a problem while updating their website.
I ordered a couple designs maybe one or two months ago, before they changed their design, and if I recall correctly, the "free" color option was only for 5x5cm PCBs. I needed some < 5x5 for the first design, and some < 10x10 for a second design, and I remember correctly the colour 10x10 were more expensive than the green ones, whereas the 5x5 were same price (hence "free color"). I ended up ordering black 5x5 and green 10x10.

As for shipping, quality, etc... :
- I originally paid for EMS shipping, but had a change of heart the next day and wanted DHL, so I sent them an email, they were quick to reply, and we worked something out (I paid them the missing 9$ via paypal).
- I know it's not important, but before shipping, they emailed a pic with the PCBs being packed and the receipt. That's a nice touch :)
- Turnaround was something like a couple weeks shipped, so pretty fast. I had another order that went out exactly the same day but with Seeed, fabrication took 4 to 5 more days.
- I didn't see any problem with the traces or vias (maybe some off-center vias, but nothing too bad). However, the silkscreen is not that good : text moved, have a hard time printing thin lines, stuff like that. I won't complain because of the price, which is pretty damn cheap, and it's great for prototyping.

Attached is the pic they sent before shipping.
 

Offline zaptaTopic starter

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2014, 02:06:36 pm »
I think that as metalphreak said, it's not meant to be deceptive but mostly a problem while updating their website.

If so, the will fix it now that they are aware of it. Will wait and see.

According to them the 10cm color is more expensive for about 6 months now.

BTW, are golden traces they have in the picture included in the advertised price or extra?
 

Offline metalphreak

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2014, 03:00:34 pm »
I think that as metalphreak said, it's not meant to be deceptive but mostly a problem while updating their website.

If so, the will fix it now that they are aware of it. Will wait and see.

According to them the 10cm color is more expensive for about 6 months now.

BTW, are golden traces they have in the picture included in the advertised price or extra?

Flash gold and ENIG are optional extras. Standard is HASL (tin plated) as per the other 4 boards in the image... You should really look at the text description and the various option selections, rather than the title/image.

Offline zaptaTopic starter

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2014, 03:37:56 pm »
Flash gold and ENIG are optional extras. Standard is HASL (tin plated) as per the other 4 boards in the image... You should really look at the text description and the various option selections, rather than the title/image.

Yes, I did, but this is another little game they are playing where the price and the picture do not match.
 

Offline mrflibble

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2014, 04:43:46 pm »
If so, the will fix it now that they are aware of it. Will wait and see.

Or ...

"If so, you would like that they will fix it now that they are aware of it."

From the vantage point of someone who doesn't care either way for the specific wording, I don't see how "got complaint from semi-random dude on the internet aka customer" correlates with "change website". And definitely not with "change website in fashion semi-random dude on the internet aka customer is expecting".

That aside, doesn't look too bad. You can see in advance what you get and what you pay. The rest is just semantics.

It's the same story as with "Article XYZ now with 40% discount!!!" advertisements. Yeah, 40% discount on a crazy price. Mmmmh, crazy price * 0.6 == oh look a moderately competitive price. Who would ever have expected that?!? Just look at price vs what-you-get, who cares what the marketing department decides to slap on today.

But best of all, if those practices are not to your liking you can just take your business elsewhere. :)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 04:46:01 pm by mrflibble »
 

Offline zaptaTopic starter

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2014, 05:59:45 pm »
From the vantage point of someone who doesn't care either way for the specific wording, I don't see how "got complaint from semi-random dude on the internet aka customer" correlates with "change website". And definitely not with "change website in fashion semi-random dude on the internet aka customer is expecting".

The defense for having the misleading information was that it was a naive mistake and that would not do it otherwise.  Now that they are aware of it we will see if it is intentional or not.

It does not matter how it was brought to their attention, it matters that now they know that their advertised claim is clearly false (they sell the same boards without the special color for half the price). If they have any integrity they will fix it.
 

Offline mrflibble

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2014, 08:47:40 pm »
If they have any integrity they will fix it.
100% depending on their priorities and other things on the TODO list...
 

Offline true

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2014, 11:44:18 pm »
I don't think it's meant to be deceptive. They probably added that Green Special option later, and didn't even think of the possible wording implication.
This is exactly it. They added this option a few months ago, I believe.
 

Offline metalphreak

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2014, 09:49:12 am »
 :-+

Offline zaptaTopic starter

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2014, 10:35:12 pm »
Hi Elecrow,

Thanks for the response.

2. How elecrow call the http://www.elecrow.com/2-layer-10cm-10cm-max-pcb-510pcs-color-free-p-328.html"Color free"?
Thanks for the friends understaning of this .  when we begin thei PCB service, we found that the color red/black .. is a litter expensive than the green color, than is also why other PCB vendors charge extra fee for non-green color.  To make the whole story simple, we decided to not charge for the no-green color even througth the cost for these color is higher than green.   that is why we call it "color free". as our order Increase and improment of our management, the cost of "green" reduced as it is the most common used color the  users needed, so we add the "Special Offer For 2 Layer 10*10cm max green PCB - 5/10pcs", which makes PCB fee of green color reduced greatly... so , we are not intended any "deception"..

In the past your colored boards used to cost the same as green boards so you called it 'free color' which is correct.

7 months ago you changed the pricing and colored boards cost now more than green boards. Why do you insist on still calling it  'color free' even though you charge extra for colors? If you want to have accurate representation you can for example change 'color free' to 'color' or 'color included' .
 

Offline true

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2014, 03:36:09 am »
AFAIK anything goes as long as it isn't spam, dangerous, deceitful or outright aggression. (yes?) I mean, there is a topic about a guy crying about THE MAN deceiving him...

Prices dropping, great for us :) My last order needed to be used in presentation and the quality was just barely OK, but I see now that you have a "premium" service that you quote for, so I might use that for small price-constrained runs in the future. I've been generally OK with board quality from Elecrow.
 

Offline zaptaTopic starter

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Re: Elecrow PCB deception?
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2014, 07:30:38 pm »
I've been generally OK with board quality from Elecrow.

Same here, and also their frameless metal stencils.  The board outlines are fully routed so I don't need to clean the edges as with OSHPark.

I just whish that I could specify a margin (e.g. 1") for the stencils instead of having to trim them myself (their laser cutter could do a much better job than my metal shears and with nice round corners that will not injure me).  PCB-POOL and oshstencils do trim the stencils.
 


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