Author Topic: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC  (Read 75682 times)

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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #100 on: April 06, 2015, 08:16:06 pm »
The machine is going great, however, I am unfortunately struggling to make the time to get to the next stage - programming.

There are 'emergency' orders that I have to work on, the kids are on spring break, and I am also laying out new PCB's. Next week I have a trade show that will consume even more time. Anodizing went bad on our last batch of enclosures so I have to tend to that.

Frustrating having it sit there while I build things by hand. I need a few straight days to get it rolling I think. Learning the software and doing tests. LOTS of parts to be loaded.
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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #101 on: April 11, 2015, 06:34:53 pm »
I have some time coming up that I am planning to use to get the PnP online. The next step is setup and programming. This may be the hardest part. There is no forum that discusses the PPM version of a Quad IVC machine, so I have to rely on PPM or hacking to figure it out. Hacking is slow and risky while PPM is faster but very expensive.

I have gone through the print manual and a you tube webinar to get the basics. The problem is that it simply goes from menu to menu without any real presentation of workflow or concepts. Its like giving an oscilloscope manual to someone that does not know the fundamentals of test and measurement. The manual is actually called a "programmers reference". All I rally want right know is an example project to run through so that I can understand the steps and the process.

So....to hack or not to hack. I don't have much time or money at the moment so I need to choose wisely.
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Offline Corporate666

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #102 on: April 12, 2015, 07:23:26 am »
I have some time coming up that I am planning to use to get the PnP online. The next step is setup and programming. This may be the hardest part. There is no forum that discusses the PPM version of a Quad IVC machine, so I have to rely on PPM or hacking to figure it out. Hacking is slow and risky while PPM is faster but very expensive.

I have gone through the print manual and a you tube webinar to get the basics. The problem is that it simply goes from menu to menu without any real presentation of workflow or concepts. Its like giving an oscilloscope manual to someone that does not know the fundamentals of test and measurement. The manual is actually called a "programmers reference". All I rally want right know is an example project to run through so that I can understand the steps and the process.

So....to hack or not to hack. I don't have much time or money at the moment so I need to choose wisely.

There aren't any placement programs left on the machine???

If not, surely PPM would send you one, no?  It would be ridiculous if they would refuse to send you a sample program "so you can test out your machine".
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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #103 on: April 12, 2015, 07:47:18 am »
I inquired about 1-on-1 training options to get a sense of the work flow. Its a four hour minimum which is $800. Was really hoping for a more flexible answer.

I cannot imagine why it would take anywhere near 4hrs to get a basic setup and program going.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #104 on: April 12, 2015, 08:09:54 am »
I doubt it is really that hard - If you can't sit down with a real job and a days' time and have it mostly working, PPM have done  a poor job.
It's not rocket science - pick up a part, put it at <x,y,theta> repeat til done.
There will be quirks, shortcuts etc. that you pick up over time, but it shouldn't be hard to get the basics up & running in a few hours.
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Offline Corporate666

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #105 on: April 12, 2015, 09:23:54 pm »
I inquired about 1-on-1 training options to get a sense of the work flow. Its a four hour minimum which is $800. Was really hoping for a more flexible answer.

I cannot imagine why it would take anywhere near 4hrs to get a basic setup and program going.

For training, yes... but I'm sure they would be able to send you a sample placement program that you could look through.  I'm not sure how things are done in the Windows GUI, but on my machine, you define pickups, placements, and then a program.

Pickups are just like an excel spreadsheet, with column titles of "Number, X, Y, Z, Length, Width, Height, Description, Alternate".  The number is arbitrary and is just what is used in the placement program, so for example if I just put a feeder anywhere on the machine, I then move to it with the hand control and place the component directly in the center of the crosshairs.  I then press the camera offset button on the hand control which moves the nozzle to where the crosshairs were on the screen.  Then I jog down in Z and press the Vacuum toggle button and keep jogging down in Z a few thou at a time until I don't see the part jump up when I turn on vacuum.  Then I just basically hit enter and the X/Y/Z coordinates of that pickup are stored.  I use a set of calipers to measure the length/width/height of the part.  They are entered in thousandths... so 0020 is 0.020".  I enter whatever number I want to call that pickup, let's call it 1.  And I enter description, like "10k 0805 Resistor".

Pickups are independent of the placement program.

Then I create the program to place parts.  I start by defining my placement locations.  Almost the same as setting pickups.  I take a PCB and put some thin double sided tape on it, then load it into the machine as if I was going to place it.  I can hit "pickup" on the hand control, it then asks me a pickup #... we programmed "1" before, so I hit 1 and press enter.  The machine will go pick up an 0805 resistor. 

Then I just got the head over to where I want to place the part and center it using the crosshairs on the camera.  Then I press the button to switch from camera to nozzle which just moves the machine the X and Y offset amount so the nozzle is where the crosshairs were.  Then I jog down in Z until the part touches... then just go down a little more - like 0.010" (until I just start to see the spring on the Z axis start to compress).  Then I hit enter and that is my placement location.  Then I repeat the placement teaching process for each location I want to put a 10k 0805 Resistor.  In reality, I don't really need to reprogram the Z setting, and if I keep track of the X and Y coordinates of that 1st part, I can set a "MARK" in Eagle at that location, and then just look at the relative coordinates of each other component and rather than teaching those locations, I can just enter them by hand as new lines in the placement screen.  Keep in mind the X axis is front-to-back on the Quad (at least on mine - X positive means head closer to you) and Y positive is head more to the left.  Home is back right on the machine, so all your X and Y coordinates are positive from that home position.

You also define nozzle locations the same way you define pickups - a number, an X/Y/Z coordinate - and that's it.

For the placement program, it's ultra simple... you have already defined pickup locations, placement locations and nozzle locations and assigned them easy to remember numbers.

Your program then becomes

NOZZLE 1
PICK 1
PLACE 1
PICK 1
PLACE 2
PICK 1
PLACE 3
...
...
END

That program places a 10k 0805 resistor at location 1, then 2, then 3 and so on.


I realize my machines are DOS and yours is Windows, but the manner of operation is pretty much the same.  The Windows version has some part management mumbo jumbo included, but you should be able to work through it.  There isn't much to lose in experimenting... the Z rod bellows just unscrews, and without that, even at maximum down in Z, the head can't come into contact with the PCB or with the feeders.... so if you are worried about crashing the machine, just pull the Z rod and try to write a dummy program.

I'd also press PPM to sent you a test program, or look through the drive to see if there are any on there... I'd be very surprised if the prior owner took the time to wipe out all of his placement programs.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #106 on: April 12, 2015, 09:55:44 pm »
Quote
Then I just got the head over to where I want to place the part and center it using the crosshairs on the camera

WTF? seriously? Manually teaching every part position...
Surely your PCB software can output a list of all part positions and rotations, to import into the P&P machine....?


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Offline Corporate666

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #107 on: April 12, 2015, 09:58:02 pm »
Quote
Then I just got the head over to where I want to place the part and center it using the crosshairs on the camera

WTF? seriously? Manually teaching every part position...
Surely your PCB software can output a list of all part positions and rotations, to import into the P&P machine....?

Of course it can.... but I manually program the first location and then just key in the X/Y deltas off that part.  The reason is that I usually let the PCB house decide on the panelization and they add the rails and fiducials, so I don't have precise X/Y coordinates from fiducial to board.  Only takes about 30 seconds to teach the first location - I don't teach them all :)
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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #108 on: April 13, 2015, 05:51:17 am »
It is true that it is not that hard - in theory. I don't want to bash PPM's efforts but I will be honest with what I have seen so far. Some of what I say should be taken with a grain of salt because this is a new process for me. I make no claims of knowing what I am doing when it comes to PnP operations (yet).

The concepts are rather easy to grasp for sure. This is especially true since I have spent many thousands of hours programming and operating 5 axis CNC machines and designing and programming various motion control systems. Tell it where the part is, tell is where is goes, repeat as needed until the PCB is populated. In general, this machine and it's software are totally capable of that task. The rub is that there is no flow or thought in how it is laid out that I can tell. Normal windows programming conventions are non existant - it makes Eagle CAD look like a graceful butterfly. Keep in mind this is 10+ years old so this should NOT be compared to whatever the current version is today which was designed for Windows 7. Since the mid-80's I have dealt with all types of weird and strange pieces of software. The low-volume specialty industrial stuff has been the most bizarre. Using these pieces of software has given me some skill in getting to know the programmers intentions and getting what is needed from otherwise terrible software. Not everyone can be Apple I guess.

Much of the programming information appears in multiple places but can only be manipulated from one place. It is not obvious where to go to add a feeder when looking at a list of feeders on the screen for example. None of it is unworkable, it is just messy and not very considering of a typical operator. I am struggling to find a better way to say 'NOT INTUITIVE'. I have prepared some CAD data for testing which is simple. I did a ULP for Eagle to format the data exactly the way it is needed for the PPM software. Importing the data is easy enough - desginator, package, X,Y,Theta, etc. The software appears to be operating from a database and not individual files (which seems risky to me). It has it's own organization scheme internally to keep track of user generated data. Now, how do you assign parts from the CAD data to a feeder? How do you tell it where the feeders are? How do you get the PCB oriented in the machine? The answers are all there - just in such a strange way. Something that looks like a button is actually a menu....nuts.

With that said, I turn to the manual. I can't figure it out by looking at it and pushing buttons so the next best thing is reading the instructions, no big deal. This is not at all a sign of bad software design, but more an amateur trying to learn something new. The problem with the manual is that it is essentially a dictionary and not a textbook. The difference is that it rather simply tells me what an individual button may do or what data is expected in a particular box. It does not take you through the process at all or present concepts. It would be nice to have a flow chart of sorts that explains the course steps to be taken from one end of the process to the other. The process in concept is so simple, it is hard to understand why it feels so cumbersome and complicated. I took some time this morning to go and fiddle with it for a bit, and was able to get a board defined on the table, added some placements, added some feeders and nozzles. Convoluted and strange - but the machine seemed happy with the data so far. I can deal with convoluted if the PCB's are getting done. I did not have a functional program, just some X/Y locations.

It all stopped when I was setting up the nozzle changer. I told it to pickup a nozzle but it did not pull it out of the pocket. I am not sure if the nozzle changer did not release it or the 'Z-Rod' that picks it up has bad o-rings. Either way, the nozzle pickup failed and the machine stopped. An error window pops up to tell me what happened. Not shocking at all that the pickup did not work - could have been a number of things. The problem is that the Z rod stopped in the down position, meaning if the X or Y axis moved - it would be damaged. I turned off the machine and manually moved the Z to a safe position, turned it back on and re-homed everything. I tried to do a nozzle pickup again and the same result - it is right on the X/Y target but the pickup fails. This time I was looking for a way to retract the Z to a safe position without turning the machine off. There is a 'HOME ALL AXIS' command that I have used a number of times to re-home the machine as I have been testing the basic movement, joystick functions, etc. It behaves just like a CNC machine. First it retracts the Z slowly and finds its home. Then is jogs the X and Y axis to find home. The problem I found here is that it only behaves that way when there is not already homed. When I pressed the 'HOME ALL AXIS' button, it launched the X/Y home at full speed with the Z all the way down - damaging the Z pickup rod.

That is a flaw. Period. There is no reason the X/Y should ever be in motion while the Z is down. The command should also not have a dangerously different function depending on the status of the machine. Anyway, the Z-Rod is now bent. Nothing else is damaged that I can tell. All next week I have to do a trade show, so waiting on the bent part to arrive is no big deal.

So far, the machine will most likely solve my challenges for PCB assembly which is the good news. There will likely be continuous frustrations with silly software design along the way. I am happy that I have not yet been stopped dead in my tracks - PPM can always bail me out as long as my credit card can stand it. Having support for the machine was a big reason I thought it would be a good idea but as Corporate666 explained, PPM may not be a good business match for someone like me trying to get a tiny PnP machine up and running on a shoestring budget - sub $10k. They are nice and knowledgeable people, but the service and support options and prices outclass the decades old machine. It feels like I am being punished for buying a used machine to save money and they want to get me to pay for a full price machine somehow. That may be a bit over the top, but $1800 for a joystick in a hand drilled off the shelf project box? Minimum of $800 for a one-on-one phone training even if I only need help for an hour? $1000 for a vibratory feeder top plate? I did pay $1500 for the software licence because they say the previous owner never paid for it to be licensed. That is fair enough, not a problem at all. When I asked if there were any maintenance updates, they said that was going to cost extra. That was the answer without even knowing what version of software I was on. I would think that the freshly paid licence should at least be the latest version available for my particular system right? Anyway, I am thankful that they are in business but they make me want a fresh and new machine already. If I am going to have the brand new machine costs, I would like a new machine. If I have a 20+ year old machine, it's because it's all I can afford and I am clearly looking for a low cost solution. That is not a knock at all toward PPM, it's simply a reminder that entry-level PnP does not really exist without some pains along the way. There are most likely many machines out there that are installed and working and it is easier to just pay to maintain an OLD machine than get a new one. I cannot imagine that will last too much longer as these things are rather old the maintenance costs will capture the attention of the bean counters.

If I had PPM do all the service needed to get this machine going, I would have spent $10k+ by now in addition to the $5k I paid for the machine. So far, I have spent about $2k and did the other $8k myself in about 40hrs or so - nights and weekends. I don't want to be a machine mechanic, but for $200/hr it's not horrible. I could almost buy two spare machines for that much money.

I have to remind myself that I only have to make a small qty of PCB's for this to be a good decision. If I make a medium qty of PCB's, it will be a great decision.

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Offline Corporate666

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #109 on: April 13, 2015, 06:36:05 am »
You are running into the same experiences I had with PPM.  Nice enough people, but they are batshit crazy in their prices.  They are trying to command premium prices in a market that is dwindling fast.  They don't have any new offerings because although they bought the rights to Quad/Tyco's manufacturing and tooling, they are not capable of making PnP machines... so they are clinging to a shrinking market of legacy customers who need support.  Their solution to that was the Windows upgrade.... but rather than hire in-house talent or go with a hot-shot programmer, it seems they went with someone who was a bit of a hack and got the job done, but not well.  That, combined with the prices they are asking for this machine, makes it a tough sell.  They sell it as a brand new machine, but it's not.  It's a custom add-in card on top of a 20 year old machine.  The machine still uses the old motors, old power supply, old vision system, old servo drivers and old mechanicals... it's like buying an older car with a fresh paint job.  It ain't the same as buying new.

I wish they had decided to try to foster a new market by open sourcing the software and they could let the community improve it - and then a Quad 4C would be *the* PnP for the small shop to buy - with the best software and support.  That would raise values on the machines and make PPM the place to go for a machine or for parts.  But they went a different route - to milk as much as possible from the legacy users - virtually guaranteeing those customers look elsewhere when their needs progress.

But I digress...

You're correct that allowing movement in X or Y while the Z is down is absolutely asinine.  (not to say I told ya so but that's why I suggested removing the Z rod) :)

Anyway, if you haven't already ordered the Z-rod, go with these guys

http://www.nozzlesupply.com/quadnozzle.htm

I bought a couple of Z-rods from them - they were cheaper than the PPM ones, and they were brand new and an improved design.  My OEM rods would clog up with solder paste over time and get gummy... the one from these guys has literally hundreds of thousands of parts on it and it has never bound up or gotten stuck even once.

Also, I was looking through my prior purchases and came across these guys..

http://www.nozzles4smt.com/Count-On-Tools-Expands-Its-Quad-Feeder-Peel-Roller-Series_b_60.html

They sell replacement urethane feeder rollers for Quad feeders.  They are quite a bit less expensive than OEM/PPM.


As for your nozzle failure... does the Z rod have the o-rings on it?  There should be 2.  Did the nozzle changer slide-lock pull back to release the nozzle?  It sounds like it might not have.  Check the connection (easily accessed by pulling down the access panel just under the table). 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #110 on: April 13, 2015, 09:01:00 am »
This thread is starting to sound very familiar.....
There is a similar situation with the old Versatronics machines, mostly sold in the UK. Despite being about 20 years since the company went titsup, it is probably still the smallest and best value P&P available for the low-end user. Used machines sell nowadays for £1000-4000 with feeders, it needs no air, and can be transported by one person in a small van.
I bought mine a few years ago from a guy who used to work for the company, and had cornered the market in supporting the existing user base. This guy charged for everything, and wouldn't hesitate to screw as much money as he could. As soon as he had the money it was almost impossible to get hold of him, even if you wanted to buy parts etc. 
If you'd just bought a machine he might grudgingly tell you a few tips and try to make you think he was doing you a huge favour.
So I set up a forum for machine users. As it's a very small  user base, this takes negligible time to run.
This really pissed him off. He registered and participated briefly but then resorted to registering new  usernames and trolling.
He's not been heard from for the last couple of years, and the users of the machine are now pretty much self-sufficient - beginners get a helping hand dealing with quirks, software utilities, tips  and sources for parts get shared freely, a guy with a  lathe makes new nozzles. Someone else has re-created some of the PCBs used in the system and sells them at reasonable prices. Someone else is currently reverse-engineering the software to allow it to run on newer PC hardware.

The situation with PPM is slightly different in that it is their software, but in terms of support, other users will be at least as good in helping deal with issues that PPM might want to sell training to deal with.
As the market for the Quad moves downward towards  hobbyists and low-end users, community support will be increasingly important.
As it is, everyone will go through the same learning process in getting the first job set up - if one used documented this it would be hugely useful to others.
So maybe an answer is to set up an independent user forum.




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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #111 on: April 13, 2015, 09:29:27 am »
Concerning PPM:
The prices for the hardware are bullocks but a one on one training from a company, I have seen worse prices.
A normal course with 20 participants can go up to $125 an hour per participant. So not sure if that is so bad.
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #112 on: April 13, 2015, 03:48:41 pm »
The situation with PPM is slightly different in that it is their software, but in terms of support, other users will be at least as good in helping deal with issues that PPM might want to sell training to deal with.
As the market for the Quad moves downward towards  hobbyists and low-end users, community support will be increasingly important.
As it is, everyone will go through the same learning process in getting the first job set up - if one used documented this it would be hugely useful to others.
So maybe an answer is to set up an independent user forum.

There is a pretty good user base over at SMTNet but you're right, an independent forum specifically for the 4C would be ideal.

Regarding rx8pilot's machine... the more I hear about the software, the more I feel that sticking with the DOS machine is the way to go.  There is a much larger installed base of DOS machine users, and considering the Windows version was created solely by PPM, it means you have a single place to go if the shit hits the fan as opposed to being able to get help and support from many users.  Not to mention that the additional features aren't in the basic capability of the machine, just software add-ons, like part management.  But the 4C was designed from the get-go to be a flexible and adaptable machine, so adding stuff like BOM management goes against the nature of the machine's basic design, IMO.

I believe PPM has already seen the writing on the wall as they have occasionally contacted me about the Windows upgrade and soliciting the sale with offers of reduced pricing, etc.


Regarding the "charge up the arse" mentality...

A few years back, before I bought any machines, I talked to PPM who wanted $24k for a Windows machine, $19k for a "refurbished" DOS machine, or ~$13k for an old machine that has been tested and works, but no refurbishment.  I later bought 2 DOS machines from a medical company in Arizona.  The machines were missing a few parts, but nothing too bad (missing the Z rod's for example).  I later bought a third machine which was the PPM $19k model (refurbished and upgraded with LCD monitors, etc).  I did not buy from PPM, but from a local electronics company moving to China production.  They had paid in the $30k range for the machine - I got it for $6k with all the feeders, lots of accessories and they spent a couple of hours showing me how to use it before I loaded it up.  I later contacted PPM about doing the Windows upgrade which costs $7500.  I inquired about trading in both my older DOS machines in exchange for the upgrade and was told the older machines aren't really worth anything - they could perhaps give me $1k off the price of the Windows upgrade.

So in summary... the machine they sell for $25k-30k has a fair market value of around $6k-8k.  That is just simply what they sell for in good running condition with feeders.  The Windows upgrade for that machine is $7500, but they require you to send them back all the old parts you swap out with new parts - like the control panels, control pendants, the main control board, etc.  They will resell those parts for a sum total far in excess of $7500.  And the machines they will charge $13k for, they will not offer more than a few hundred bucks in trade-in and won't buy at all straight out for cash.

Draw your own conclusions  ;)
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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #113 on: April 13, 2015, 04:44:58 pm »
Concerning PPM:
The prices for the hardware are bullocks but a one on one training from a company, I have seen worse prices.
A normal course with 20 participants can go up to $125 an hour per participant. So not sure if that is so bad.

I am not upset with the hourly rate, I just did not want to commit to 4hrs. If it actually took 4hrs, so be it and I pay the $800. If I get what I needed in 1 hour, I would pay $200. Was only hoping for flexibility. If the manual was written well, there would be less of a need for $200/hr training.

Regarding the "charge up the arse" mentality...
..........
Draw your own conclusions  ;)

I will never fault anyone or any company for making money. All I am saying is that it feels like the ship has sailed on these decades old Quad machines for high-end users. I could actually build a 'clone' of this machine from the ground up with new and modern electronics and be seriously profitable at $28k per machine. In reality, I have no aspirations to be a PnP manufacturer, but just to make a point. I have put my eyes on every detail of the machine so far and have every skill and machine needed to construct a fresh version of it with 'entry-level' cost as a target. It would be brand new.

The situation with PPM is slightly different in that it is their software, but in terms of support, other users will be at least as good in helping deal with issues that PPM might want to sell training to deal with.
As the market for the Quad moves downward towards  hobbyists and low-end users, community support will be increasingly important.
As it is, everyone will go through the same learning process in getting the first job set up - if one used documented this it would be hugely useful to others.
So maybe an answer is to set up an independent user forum.

Could be a good idea and it would not be too hard. Building some community around the system could extend the life of it and make it much more friendly to low-budget start-up types of businesses.
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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #114 on: April 13, 2015, 06:44:45 pm »
PPM just sent over an updated PDF manual. I have to say.....that is awesome. The one I had was missing many of the images, but this new one is complete. Pretty happy about that.

Going through it now.

Just registered:
quaduser.com
To make a Quad specific discussion forum. Hopefully it will make these machines more accessible to new low-budget users like me.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 07:13:30 pm by rx8pilot »
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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #115 on: April 19, 2015, 08:50:43 pm »
Headed to the shop to CNC some fixtures for the PnP. The converyor system that shuttles the PCB's in and out of the machine can only do rectangular shapes. I wanted the flexibility to use the conveyor system to hold odd shaped pre-routed PCBs that are double sided. I did not find any commercial product that fit the bill so I designed one that fit exactly what I wanted. The PCB can be suspended in the middle or justified in a corner if it has two edges at a right angle.

This will allow the machine to accommodate regular panelized PCB's as well as the weird 1 off prototypes without having to change anything. Right now, I have quite a few pre-cut boards that will not fit the conveyor.



I am also making a JEDEC tray that is a cut-tape holder. It is adjustable in 4mm increments so it can do any type of tape at any length. I had found one similar but it was about $500 and I wanted at least 6 of them to be able to pre-load for various projects. Also, the commercial one that I found could not do tall components. There are other cut tape feeders but they are fixed widths - like 8 lanes of 8mm OR 5 lanes of 12mm. I wanted any combination of tapes to be quickly loaded into a tray holder. Being an ME and machinist is helpful here.

The rough un-finished model.....trying to keep the features simple so the CNC part is easy.



I was at a trade show all of last week so PnP is low on the priority list. I did, however, go through the new PDF manual from PPM. It is WAY better than the one with missing pictures. I finally have a handle on the programming. Did some tests with setup and programming so I should be in pretty good shape now. This manual has a "Getting Started" section right up front which is hugely helpful.

I will take some photos at the machine shop. Seeing metal flying is always entertaining.
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Offline JuKu

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #116 on: April 19, 2015, 10:59:14 pm »
The feeders look very nice, but maybe too simple. There are some issues to watch for:

- I assume there will be some kind of top cover? The small parts are very light. Sometimes I feel that an angry look is all that is needed to make parts jump out of their pockets. In other words, unless something is holding the tape down or you have a clever cover tape peeler so that only one part at the time is exposed, parts will jump out from nearby pockets.

- Can you adjust the pickup height and/or downforce? Paper tape is not strong from bottom side, it is easy to press parts through.

I'd like to see these feeders work.
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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #117 on: April 19, 2015, 11:10:59 pm »
You are correct and it may be a challenge with small parts jumping. There is an acrylic cover that will restrain the tape as well as a pin to help with consistent placement index. The paper tapes will all go into regular feeders. This one is only for plastic at the moment which is where the expensive parts are.

I have the option of putting an adjustable bottom support for the tape, but it adds complexity so I will test without that at first. The machine has adjustable pickup height and speed which may help. Big or heavy parts are not a problem, but a QFN-28 is pretty small. fingers crossed that a gentle pickup should be ok.

Could be an option for your machine if it works. I will be happy to send the data to you.

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Offline Stogiesaurus

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #118 on: April 27, 2015, 06:07:53 pm »
Hi All,

I ran across this forum and thread looking for info on cleaning the vacuum lines of our Quad ??C (not sure which model it is) and decided to sign up.  It's been loosing vacuum for years and I feel it is getting critical.  I was told that it's due to the lines getting dirty and that they need to be flushed out with alcohol.  I hope to see if that's true in the next few days.  I've been using it for close to 10 years so if anyone has any specific question please feel free to contact me.

If the JEDEC tray works out I may be interested in acquiring one from you.  I've thought about doing something similar for years.  Mine would be more like taping the tape to the table sort of like the vib base mod in the photo.  :) 

Thanks,
Larry
 

Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #119 on: April 27, 2015, 06:19:53 pm »
Larry,

Glad you joined the discussion. I am not sure what the condition of the vac system is on my unit since I have yet to setup a complete program. The last few weeks,I have been buried with other tasks - design, PCB layout, warranty service on our old products, trades show, etc....

Are you feeding the machine air or vacuum? What do the gauges say? Have you pulled the Z-rod to check for clog?

Hoping to get the JEDEC tape tray out of the CNC machine this week along with the PCB holder. Working VERY long days right now which is a bad time to operate a 30HP CNC machine. Gotta be fresh for that type of work or it will tear my limbs off.
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Offline Corporate666

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #120 on: April 28, 2015, 12:12:14 am »
Hi All,

I ran across this forum and thread looking for info on cleaning the vacuum lines of our Quad ??C (not sure which model it is) and decided to sign up.  It's been loosing vacuum for years and I feel it is getting critical.  I was told that it's due to the lines getting dirty and that they need to be flushed out with alcohol.  I hope to see if that's true in the next few days.  I've been using it for close to 10 years so if anyone has any specific question please feel free to contact me.

If the JEDEC tray works out I may be interested in acquiring one from you.  I've thought about doing something similar for years.  Mine would be more like taping the tape to the table sort of like the vib base mod in the photo.  :) 

Thanks,
Larry

Hi Larry,

As RX8 said, are you supplying air or vacuum to the machine?  If air, then over time the residual oil from your compressor will accumulate in your machine.  The places to check and clean would be the vacuum venturi.  If you open the left side of the machine (left as you are standing in front of it looking at it), you will see the plumbing inside where the air enters.  There are a couple of very simple couplings/switches.  You can very easily disconnect the vacuum venturi and soak it in alcohol overnight.  Ideally, disassemble it as much as possible and remove any seals - and clean it that way, it will work better.

As said above, check your Z-rod and your nozzles.  Both will accumulate solder paste that will eventually dry and reduce vacuum.  Nozzles are easily cleaned by dropping them in acetone.  Z-rod can be done the same way, but remove all the seals first (or even better, just use a wash or spray bottle with alcohol or acetone). 

I would think it's unlikely that it's the lines themselves, but if you pull the panel and see amber colored slime in your lines, that's compressor oil.  You could pretty easily replace the lines - measure your tubing and get replacements at www.mcmaster.com
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Offline Stogiesaurus

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #121 on: April 28, 2015, 05:27:46 pm »
I quoted RX8's reply yesterday.  I don't see it now so I'm not sure what happened to it.

I clean the Z-rod from time to time.  I realized I needed to do it again after RX8 mentioned it.  We run so sporadically that we don't have a specific maintenance schedule.  It gets done when things start messing up.   :-[

I cleaned up the venturi device yesterday.  It was full of oil but my guess is that is has been for a long time so I'm not sure how much this will help.  If I remember correctly there is an inline air filter somewhere in the head.  I'm going to try to find and replace it.

 

Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #122 on: April 28, 2015, 05:32:40 pm »
The venturi is the most likely spot to lose vacuum performance I would think. The compressed air never goes through the machine - only the venturi. Hope that helps. I was considering a getting a vacuum pump instead of running compressed air. seems more efficient since the compressed air is always bleeding out the venturi.

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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #123 on: April 28, 2015, 09:37:39 pm »
If you do buy a good vacuum pump install a good vacuum filter , they are rather cheap and can be exchanged on a yearly basis, helps the lifetime of the pump
 

Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #124 on: April 29, 2015, 12:36:48 am »
Any suggestions on a vacuum pump? I  know it will need 25in/Hg but not sure what volume. Does it need a reservoir?
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