Author Topic: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC  (Read 76117 times)

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Offline Corporate666

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #125 on: April 29, 2015, 06:21:16 am »
Any suggestions on a vacuum pump? I  know it will need 25in/Hg but not sure what volume. Does it need a reservoir?

My two chipshooters both used vacuum pumps made by Gast - which are about as good as it gets.  I still have a couple of spares, but they are 3 phase.

Neither had a reservoir - the amount of vacuum used is very small and the line volume is enough to prevent drops in vacuum before the pump can kick in.
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #126 on: April 29, 2015, 07:48:23 am »
AFAIK you have two sorts of vacuum pumps. The very deep vacuum that go to -0.99 bar at the end but they have not much capacity so takes a long time.
And you have the high capacity types that will not go below about -0.9 bar.
First see which one you need for your application, for cnc machines and i think for this application too it is the latter.
Look for maintenance free vacuum pumps or you have to change the oil each year ( moist in the oil)
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #127 on: April 29, 2015, 02:51:53 pm »
Out of curiosity, just how much air/vacuum do PnPs need?  I would think that a small air ejector would be more than sufficient.  I'm very surprised to hear that a three-phase vacuum pump would be required. 
 

Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #128 on: April 29, 2015, 04:34:55 pm »
I don't know the exact figure, but it is small. The air compressor/venturi method seems wasteful since it is always bleeding air to maintain vacuum. It also needs the air to be appropriately filtered to keep the machine from clogging. Water removal, oil separation, and particulate filters are all separate pieces.

At my CNC shop we had a high-end air system the was super filtered, but I only have a small 1HP/3 gallon compressor where the PnP is that I used for manual solder paste dispensing and cleaning stencils. With the PnP machine just sitting, that compressor cycles every few minutes. Guessing that it would run continuous if the PnP was going.

Hoping that a vacuum system will only run when the machine is cycling and I would never have to worry about the machine getting clogged on the supply side. I will get solder paste every once in a while at the head, but that would happen either way. As Kjelt mentions, a maintenance free high-volume single phase pump should be fine. Does not take much to hold an SMD component, right?

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Offline LabSpokane

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #129 on: April 29, 2015, 04:44:21 pm »
Gotcha.  I just calculated the CFM on a small ejector and it's 0.7, so that would be really annoying with a small compressor.  Even a 5HP compressor would be cycling on and off all the time.  I was so spoiled (and lazy) in a past life with room full of big axial screw compressors.  We just didn't think twice about using an air ejector for our end effectors. 

Thanks again for updating the thread with your experiences.  It's a good learning experience.  :-+
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #130 on: April 29, 2015, 05:33:59 pm »
Out of curiosity, just how much air/vacuum do PnPs need?  I would think that a small air ejector would be more than sufficient.  I'm very surprised to hear that a three-phase vacuum pump would be required.

Well, you haven't seen the machine :))))

Rotary head chipshooter with 24 heads that places over 18,000 parts per hour.  The vacuum pump is sort of a shotgun approach to the problem... what I mean is, rather than having perfectly sized nozzles, well-maintained rubber seals and worrying about the amount of vacuum needed for various sizes and weights of components, they just use a really strong vacuum which will overcome sealing issues and ensure the parts stay in place as they whip around on their way to the PCB.
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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #131 on: April 29, 2015, 05:40:13 pm »
I would be happy placing 18,000 parts per month.
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Offline LabSpokane

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #132 on: April 29, 2015, 05:44:50 pm »
Ahh...now I have understanding! 

Another ignert question:  does the machine just release the part by releasing vacuum or does it put some positive pressure in the line to speed the process? 
 

Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #133 on: April 29, 2015, 05:56:25 pm »
That is a good question and I am not the expert. From what I have examined, the valve is rather close to the nozzle so a simple close the valve maneuver is enough to release on the Quad IVC. The PPM software (maybe DOS as well) allows the programmer to specify how long to wait for pickup and release. In practice I don't really know how necessary that will be. 
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Offline Stogiesaurus

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #134 on: April 29, 2015, 05:58:57 pm »
If you only need compressed air for the PnP a vacuum pump might be the way to go.  Have you done the power consumption calculations?  We have about a 40 to 50 gallon tank on our compressor and it only runs every hour or two.  Without a tank I would think a vacuum pump would need to run continuously.

ETA: Our Quad doesn't have a puff option to blow off the part.  It would need a source of air for that.  I think there are some newer models that do but maybe not in the C series.  It is important that you push the part down into the paste.  Otherwise the parts wind up all over the board.  ::)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 06:03:05 pm by Stogiesaurus »
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #135 on: April 29, 2015, 06:50:46 pm »
A few notes on vacuum pumps. You can get a Gast oilless pump, and it will work, but you must use the GAST filters before the pump and after it, as they really do not like ingesting anything particulate. I speak here from experience, where one picked up some thread slivers and ate itself. Plus they really want a prefilter for the filter, as those are expensive as well. I used a Donaldson truck air filter and the secondary filter, so that the Gast filter stayed absolutely clean ( it went in and came out a year later looking like the other one in the sealed pack) and happy, while the massive pleated filter was busy picking up all the dust and dirt, giving 5 micron air out to the pump.

Those Gast pumps really do not like moisyure either, or not being run regularly, as the cast iron bores rust, and then you grind the graphite vanes to pieces. Those then make great cup holders.

If you want a cheap vacuum pump buy one of the Chinese ones with a separate motor, preferably with a 3 phase motor, or be prepared to be replacing the single phase 1.5 horsepower one on a regular basis as it cooks itself ( single phase induction motors run so hot and are so cheaply made that they fail after a while, but the 3 phase one lasts pretty well if it makes a week) and also change the oil on a regular basis, along with routing the exhaust air outside as you do not want to breathe that oil mist. Those are pretty robust, and with a oil coalescing filter on the output so they recover most of the oil and reuse it. Inlet you want a good vacuum filter, so that you do not get debris into it.

For light duty you can use a refrigeration vacuum pump, with the pump and motor all in one unit. Low flow, very good vacuum and good for light use, and the same about oil and filtering.

Emergency vacuum pump I have used ( waiting for the Gast to come from the USA) a canister vacuum cleaner, which actually gave good enough results. Noisy, but got down to 0.1bar abs and had enough flow to cope. Ran for around 2 weeks 5 hours a day, and still is working. I bought a spare motor just in case, but never used it there. It went in another canister vac.

Regarding valves, you absolutely want to use piloted valves with vacuum, and preferably the biggest ports you can get, for a pick and place use a 1/2in port valve, as then it will have a fast pick up and fast release, and have it as close as possible to the pick up point. If it is a small suction cup you also want to have a small filter in the line to the valve, so use a very small fuel filter ( 6mm inlet and outlet, with as small a volume as possible) so the valve does not pick up debris and start to stick. That will happen fast with direct valves, the piloted ones will have enough force to handle small amounts of dust without too much issue for a while.
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #136 on: April 29, 2015, 11:08:30 pm »
Ahh...now I have understanding! 

Another ignert question:  does the machine just release the part by releasing vacuum or does it put some positive pressure in the line to speed the process?

On the chipshooter, it uses positive pressure to blow the part off and into the solder paste, but on the Quad IV-C it doesn't, it simply pushes the part into the solder paste and relies on the stickiness of the paste to hold it.

The chip shooter machines are really something to behold... check this out (the porn starts at 00:45)



They move so fast that the mass of the parts, becomes an issue since the board is accelerating so quickly around in the X and Y axes, and the rotational head is moving so fast that a fair bit of vacuum is required to hold the parts.  This video isn't my machine, but it looks and functions exactly the same... on mine, it would adjust it's speed based on the mass of the part it picked up (so it didn't sling it across the shop), which is one reason why the speed at which the heads rotate changes - that and to give the PCB time to get into position.
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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #137 on: May 02, 2015, 10:29:09 pm »
A few notes on vacuum pumps.......

Thank you Sean. I think the Gast pumps are an easy choice and will be an upgrade from a compressor/venturi. They are plentiful here in California new/used. When I built my CNC shop, I started with crap air system and ended up paying for it with machine damage and lost time. I ended up with a very high-end variable speed rotary screw from Atlas Copco. It was actually connected to the factory via a cellular data link to report maintenance data. At 175psi and 70CFM it was about as loud as a refrigerator. Peace of mind.


Once again I am headed to the CNC shop to attempt to make the fixtures for holding PCB's and cut tapes. A few updates to the JEDEC tray cut tape holder. I added a spring loaded retractable registration pin to help load the tapes accurately and prevent them from moving on accident. I also split the rails in half so that I can have the option of having a 12.7" long lane OR a 6.2" long lane. In the rendered image you can see a full length 32mm along with half length 44mm, 24mm, 8mm and 12mm. It had occured to me that with a QFN microcontroller, a full length of them is too many. This is pretty flexible. Also working out a bottom support for the wider tapes. FYI - not intended for paper tapes.



Hoping I can actually get something done today. So many other projects keep jumping in front.
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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #138 on: August 05, 2015, 02:15:38 am »
After a major delay, I got back into this machine. I have been pulled in every direction while this thing sat around. As my new PCB designs are proving to be going toward production, I needed to get this thing going.

On August 3, it placed it's first part. Super excited bout that. One 0805 resistor on an old PCB I found in a scrap box was somehow totally awesome. I have spent about 100 hours and an additional $3k getting it going. 25hrs was cleaning, repair, and other little maintenance tasks. 75hrs was spent trying to figure out the software madness that controls this sucker. When I say 'Software Madness', I am being kind and gentle. The software was designed by a coder in my opinion - not a software designer. That means that it eventually gets the job done but in an unbelievably strange and non-intuitive way. There is no clear work-flow to follow, buttons and functions are scattered all over. It's nuts. The good news is that it is like a maze - once you find a path through it, it is easy to repeat.

First things first - you need a library of parts just like EDA software. The machine needs to know all the geometric data, values, part numbers, etc. This seems simple enough, but it took many hours to get a sense of how this is actually input and organized in the PPM machine software. Defining parts like QFN is silly. I could go on and on about the crusty software, but in the end I figured it out and it works. I wrote some software and a ULP (script) in Eagle to automatically output the data in a way that it goes directly into the machine nearly ready start placing. It was not easy, but the result is that I can program a PCB in minutes. That should be good. The setup process getting the library going is a big, but ONE time effort. I created about 150 different parts that cover all of my current designs. New parts will be added here and there, but never again 150 in a single shot.

Now that I managed to get the software figured out enough to make a PCB, I will go back to the physical issues like holding small and odd shaped PCBs, custom tube feeders, and custom cut tape feeders. I ordered a dedicated vacuum pump instead of using the compressed air venturi which is loud and wasteful. The monitor and keyboard installation was re-done since the previous owner made a mess out of it. There is a UPS being installed for the whole machine to condition and back-up the machine. Our power is generally good but if power failed during a cycle it could be damaged. Hoping to prevent any power problems from damaging old and hard to find/repair parts. PPM keeps just about everything, but it all costs WAY more than a UPS so what the heck. The PC, as mentioned earlier, has been converted to SSD disk for reliability as well. All the tape feeders have been serviced. Should be ready to roll for real.

So far, I would say that this project is good for what I am doing, but is not for the faint of heart or wallet. All in it will be around $8k plus tons of sleuthing and learning a bizarre system. There is some comfort that PPM has parts and service, the cost of that is really out of the range of this machine. If I did all the refurb work and training with them, it would not be worth it. I would have chosen a different path. I would easily have over $20k into it by now. The DIY effort has saved around $12k, I am ok with that - around $120/hr. It was an experiment from the beginning.

Looking forward, I have a PnP that can place 0201's, BGAs, or whatever with decent speed (rated 3600cph) and great accuracy/precision (.0005"). It is built VERY well, super rigid at around 1000lbs. I can do mixed cut tapes to 56mm with by custom CNC'd JEDEC tray, 50+ tape feeders at once, any size or shape PCB, double sided as well. It can hold enough parts to do 3 different PCB's at once which will save a ton of time in change-over. The goal from the beginning was to do small volumes of a variety of PCB's. My current project has 3 PCB's with a total BOM cost of about $275 or so. To build 100pcs at a time with a local CM would be $27,500 for the parts and maybe $10,000 for assembly (double sided, fine pitch parts, 400 parts, 3 pcbs). Now I can make them as I need them and have total oversight and control not to mention MUCH better cash-flow. I still have to put my own time into it, but I would also have to put a lot of time into getting a CM up and running - kits, organization, inspection, etc, etc.

First part placed.....no fiucials were used so the part is slightly shifted. With the fiducials setup, it really nails it. Even the .4mm QFN's are placed spot on with only the on the fly alignment scanner - Quad Align. Super critical parts like BGA use the upward camera.




For those looking to start a business in electronics, I hope this is helpful. I feel like this machine (as difficult as it has been) will transform my business the same way CNC mills transformed my mechanical design business. Buying a current tech new machine is far more expensive and the hobby machines are not up to the needs of a profitable business.


« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 02:19:02 am by rx8pilot »
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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #139 on: November 11, 2015, 09:01:26 pm »
A new video of the Quad working. Finally got a full program cycle to run. The big delay was designing and machining the special PCB holder for my small and odd shaped PCB's. The Quad is setup for square panels and cannot take a weird or small PCB without a special holder. What I made allows me to use the conveyor system. This allows me to be printed and prepping PCB's while the P&P cycles. The machine can be kept in nearly continuous motion this way.

First full run in slow mode.
https://youtu.be/dUpXYxoDnuA

First full run in full speed mode.
https://youtu.be/n3T007W-IAg
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 09:07:06 pm by rx8pilot »
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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #140 on: November 13, 2015, 06:08:34 pm »
Once again....having a SUPPORTED P&P is awesome.

I am not at the final stages of fully commissioning the P&P machine and of course there are still little bits and pieces that need help. Yesterday, one of the belts for the PCB conveyor (called the 'transport') fell off. They were very loose and the adjustments were maxed out. Also the bearings were all squeaking like crazy - taking then off reveals that they were totally dead.

One call to PPM and new parts are on the way! No researching and hunting. Awesome. I also told them about a problem I was having periodically where the machine thinks a PCB is stuck in the machine. I checked and tested all the related sensors and showed them what I know. There response was to send me a new part (PCB) for comparison to help the troubleshooting process - no charge. If it works, I will pay for it, if not I will send it back to them.

The next awesome thing is that they are sending me a software update which I am VERY VERY happy about. My machine has an early version of the software and it is buggy. There was another 4+ years of development on the software before they went to newer hardware. Knocking out some of the bugs will be really nice.

Goal #1 is to have the machine working all the time.

Goal #2 is to be able to fix things myself when something does go bad.

Goal # 3 is to be able to call someone when it is broken and I cannot figure it out. This goal may be the most important since these machines are so intricate, something is going to break. There is going to be some operational problem. When I can call (for a fee sometimes) and get a solution in FedEx that day....it keeps my business running.
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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #141 on: November 29, 2015, 06:07:59 am »
This P&P machine is now commissioned for real work. Finally.

 A million little details. Figuring out most of it by myself because I don't have much documentation and what I do have is so poorly constructed, it serves very little purpose. At this point, it does not matter. I have learned it and fixed it and now it is making PCB's. I get my nights and weekends back!




I designed and machined these pallets for my small, odd shaped, fully routed PCB's. The machine will only take rectangular shapes on the conveyor system. These little things are really great and make it easy to to double sided PCB's.

Blank PCB pallet.


Clamps and supports that attach to the grid. Any shape can be accommodated.


Clamps in place....


PCB's clamped in and ready.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 06:14:27 am by rx8pilot »
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #142 on: November 29, 2015, 10:02:18 am »
Beautifull craftmanship on the clamps and high respect for your perseverance  :clap:  :-+
 

Offline ajb

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #143 on: November 30, 2015, 05:51:58 pm »
Nice!

What's the maximum component height the machine can handle?  Doesn't look like there's much height clearance when crossing over some of the feeder areas, but I suppose the perspective is deceptive. 
 

Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #144 on: November 30, 2015, 06:24:03 pm »
It can handle rather tall parts but the limitation is not the clearance between the head and feeders. The limitation is the inlet of the feeders. I have some 1" tall electrolytics on tape and they will not fit into the auto feeder. They will, however fit into the custom cut tape feeder that sits in the matrix tray area.

Learning the operational subtleties is the new challenge. For example, I was placing some sense resistors last night, they are 2512 size and very thin. The machine kept missing the picks with these. When I slowed the movement down and looked closely, I noticed the nozzle was going too deep and fast which was bouncing the next part out of position. I adjusted the pickup height for those to be much more precise and slowed it down a bit. It all works great now. Relatively small issue with an easy fix, but it takes time to figure it out and nail the fix. I have 100 different parts going into the machine and they all seem to need some attention for one reason or another - so the time adds up for sure.

Another unexpected time consumer is part orientation. When I designed my part library in Eagle and in the pick and place machine I did not pay attention to the actual orientation of the parts on the tapes. So what happens is that I have multiple 'Theta' corrections that get confusing. I have one correction that rotates the part relative to the tape to match the rotation called out by the CAD data data that came out of Eagle. While that gets the part on the board correctly, the graphics on the screen are rotated so it looks like it will not be correct, even though it is. Some of the PCB's go into the machine rotated as well, which needs a counter correction on to of the other corrections. My goal is to match up all the library parts with reality so that when I look at the PCB, tape, graphics, etc - it is more intuitive to understand what the rotation should be.

At the moment, I am using double sided tape on the PCB to verify rotation by actually placing a part and looking at it. It works, but I would love to avoid that time consuming process.
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #145 on: November 30, 2015, 07:12:56 pm »

Another unexpected time consumer is part orientation. When I designed my part library in Eagle and in the pick and place machine I did not pay attention to the actual orientation of the parts on the tapes. So what happens is that I have multiple 'Theta' corrections that get confusing. I have one correction that rotates the part relative to the tape to match the rotation called out by the CAD data data that came out of Eagle. While that gets the part on the board correctly, the graphics on the screen are rotated so it looks like it will not be correct, even though it is. Some of the PCB's go into the machine rotated as well, which needs a counter correction on to of the other corrections. My goal is to match up all the library parts with reality so that when I look at the PCB, tape, graphics, etc - it is more intuitive to understand what the rotation should be.

Which is fine until you get to parts like SO8's that can come either on tape or in tubes... and of course you don't know which at design time >:(
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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #146 on: November 30, 2015, 07:20:57 pm »
Smells like experience.  The speed of the machine has to make up for the slow and tedious nature of the setup operation.


This morning, my oven broke. Seems to be a bad fan bearing. Hope that does not take much effort.

Update:
Other than the fans being in the belly of the beast, the fans themselves are easy to get. Digi-Key has the exact model and 866 in-stock for $14. Considering that my oven is a bit dated (Ok industries JEM-310) I am glad to have an easy fix without having to substitute a part. The controller is a Z80 based all through hole design to give you an idea of how far back this goes. It really works great.



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« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 07:44:18 pm by rx8pilot »
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Offline rx8pilotTopic starter

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #147 on: December 02, 2015, 03:01:45 am »
Victory today getting 0402 passives down with success! You would think this is an easy and simple step, but it is not. The machine itself certainly has the precision to place these smaller parts, but the feeders are too iffy to get the parts in position to be picked up reliably (there are 0201 capable feeders, I just don't have any). So I decided to use cut tape and put it down on my cut tape holder. Any normal person would expect that if you put a piece of cut tape with 80 components on it, you would simply teach the first and last parts and it would be ready to go.

This is not true at all. The PPM Window software is a maze of oddity and bizarre  that defies explanation sometimes. In general, you can do anything but expect to take the longest path you can imagine - times 10. Over the last 20+ years I have interfaced, designed, maintained, owned, and operated $millions of worth of specialized commercial software/hardware for a wide variety of tasks. In concept, this pick and place machine is among the simplest of the machines I have faced. The learning curve on my 5 axis CNC mills was much faster. Why? Because the software in this case was coded without any design. No consideration for human logic. It's kind of the result you would expect if you designed your PCB before the schematic.

Step 1: Pick up part at specified position
Step 2: Place part at specified position.
Step 3: Repeat until all parts are placed.

Obviously a bit simplified and there are are many questions that machine will need answers to, but that is the basic principle.

So, back to this project. It took about 10-12 hours to figure out how to deal with cut tape. Now that I know how to do it, I can repeat it much quicker, but it is about 1000 times more complicated than it should be. I had to shoot a 20 minute how-to video for myself just so that I would not forget all the bizarre non-intuitive steps needs to make it happen.



So after some serious frustration, it is now capable of doing 0201 and up. I need about 20 more 8mm feeders and may decide to get the 0201 capable variety. In the meantime, I will work through the learning curve and work arounds. PPM generally ignores my emails that have questions and have suggested that I have someone come out for training. They recommend 40 hours of training! 39 of those hours are spent teaching the work-arounds needed.

Some of the responses I get from my questions over the phone: "Why would you want to do that? This is how you do it...." On the surface, it seem innocent, but in the context of the conversation, it means they are not understanding my problem before telling me how it is. The curvy convoluted path needed for every single thing should be a concern for them. How much easier would it be to sell and support a machine that is easy to use and does not require 40 hours of training for every person that will operate it? Like I have said before, I am thankful they are there with spare parts and they have answered some critical questions so far. The disappointment in the software is probably less than what I would have if I was on the original DOS version I guess. At this point, I think they have cut me off unless I spend more money with them.

I have done 99.9% of the repairs and 'training' and I will continue to do that. As my business grows, I will be hoping for a less convoluted option for pick and place.

Factory400 - the worlds smallest factory. https://www.youtube.com/c/Factory400
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #148 on: December 02, 2015, 05:25:35 am »
You must like abuse.  I wouldn't mess with 0201s unless I had a gun to my head and no other options.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC
« Reply #149 on: December 02, 2015, 05:31:34 am »
You must like abuse.  I wouldn't mess with 0201s unless I had a gun to my head and no other options.
I wouldn't mess with most small SMD devices, but I don't need to. This is why nature created minions.  :)
 


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