Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC

[rx8pilot]

You must like abuse.  I wouldn't mess with 0201s unless I had a gun to my head and no other options.

I seem to invite abuse more than I should. Buying a used pick and place machine off of eBay and 'just figuring it out' turned out to be rather self-abusive.

The use of the small high density stuff is driven by the restricted space and weight that I have to work with. I wish I made big rack mount gear with tons of room and big square PCB's. I am in the small box biz.

The good news is that I do all the mechanics so the integration is very tight. At this time, the smallest parts are 0402 and .4mm QFN's and DFN's. Going even tighter will allow a few more features without having to re-invent the enclosure which is a complicated beast.

[coppice]

You must like abuse.  I wouldn't mess with 0201s unless I had a gun to my head and no other options.

I seem to invite abuse more than I should. Buying a used pick and place machine off of eBay and 'just figuring it out' turned out to be rather self-abusive.

Its only self-abuse if its a dead end. If it starts you on a path that leads somewhere valuable its just the normal hard going to get up to speed in a new subject area.

[rx8pilot]

I guess that is true. In the end, I have a pile of new skills and understanding in addition to a rather capable assembly machine. Since I am still well under $10k, it will clearly pay for itself even if I added all my hours in.

The very first run was a great test.....

I needed 5 production boards for a quick delivery. I needed 5 more of a modified new revision to test. I needed 1 with a modified BOM for a special case customer. I did all of them within minutes. That, of course, was after the effort of setting it all up in the first place. It is well on it's way to having about 110 unique parts pre-loaded and ready to place. That allows me to make any of my normal PCB's without a change to the machine. Once I get there, I will declare full victory!

[SteveDC2]

I have owned a Quad 4C/68 for a few years myself and purchased mine for exactly the same reasons. Love working with it.

My machine is the DOS version and the control software that comes with it is very... functional... I did also get a copy of the Quad "AutoProg" program but this was such a complete disaster of a piece of software I gave up after about 2 days of getting absolutely nowhere with it.

Instead, I revered engineered the file format used by the DOS control software and wrote my own conversion tool.

My conversion tool takes in 3 files.

File 1 = a list of various component dimensions and measurement locations (i.e. laser height etc..)
File 2 = a list of pickup locations, including waffle area repeat information for components not in reels.
File 3 = PnP file from CAD software. Currently I support Altium and KiCad directly but others would be simple to add.

The script allows the board thickness and dimensions to be entered and it then calculates all the placement heights so that components are not crushed into the board.

I have not used the machine for about 12 months and have just revived it to find an issue though...

When I make a component measurement by picking up the component then issuing "function 31, measure LAE data" the component offset reported is off by about 80 mils in both X and Y. Anyone have any thoughts on what could cause the component center to be off, and by so much? I expect a few mils but 80 is more than the size of the component and obviously wrong. It then caused the component placement to be off by the same error since the Quad tries to 'correct' for this pickup error.

Great thread though, enjoyed reading everyones experience but wish I had found it earlier so I could have help you through the pain

BR,
Steve

[rx8pilot]

Glad you joined the thread Steve - should do an update soon.

I will not be able to say anything about the DOS version of software since the PPM upgrade removes all of that and has a new interface card to communicate with the motion control and vision. All the parameters and operations are different - even the manual hand controller. On the machine itself - I have repaired, adjusted, inspected, or replaced just about everything. Still learning something every time I run the machine, either something about the machine itself or a detail about the process.

Long term awesomeness would be to find the frames of these machines and convert them to use OpenPNP. The mechanics of the machine are really nice, but the old and crusty software is a burden. At this point, I would say that this machine has been fantastic overall for how I use it. I would be out of business if I was a board assembly house though. It takes too long to get it setup. Like you, I wrote some scripts to program it with very little manual effort. The work for me is the convoluted and bizarre way of teaching the feeders, matrix trays, tube feeders, etc. It's just a strange and confusing approach that is slow. Once it is ready to rumble - all is well. It has been stable and predictable. The only things I have are a few feeders that need help, but that is an easy fix.

Take some photos if you are able. I will try to add some new ones as well.

[H.O]

When I make a component measurement by picking up the component then issuing "function 31, measure LAE data" the component offset reported is off by about 80 mils in both X and Y. Anyone have any thoughts on what could cause the component center to be off, and by so much? I expect a few mils but 80 is more than the size of the component and obviously wrong. It then caused the component placement to be off by the same error since the Quad tries to 'correct' for this pickup error.

Disclaimer: I have zero experience with this type of machine.
What's doing the actual measurment? Is it one of those "laser thingies" or is it your traditional camera/vision setup?

Is it possible that something has come loose and moved so that when the machine positions the center of the nozzle over the center of the camera (if that's what's being used) the nozzle is no longer in the center of the image. Or possibly that the software has lost the calibration/offset number (if it has such a thing)? I don't know how the "laser thingie" works but I'd imagine it too would have to be adjusted and/or have and offset/calibration number applied.

[rx8pilot]

The Quad machines X/Y are linear optical encoders driven by steppers. It is very accurate, reliable and repeatable in general. The Z is a stepper with rotary encoder and Theta is just a stepper I think. Each time it picks up a nozzle it measures the tip and shape of the nozzle with 'Quad Align' which is a side facing line camera illuminated with a laser. Essentially it is looking at the shape of a shadow as the nozzle or part breaks the laser line. It measures the nozzle as it is rotating to pickup runout as well.

The PPM version has an offset procedure to correlate the vision system with the nozzle. I have not yet had anything drift. It is possible that some dust or dirt could be on the linear encoder causing a few skipped steps. Hard to say.

[H.O]

If dirt on the linear scale(s) caused a position error then wouldn't it fail picking the parts up? It's my understanding that it consistently pick the parts correctly but (also consistently) places them 80mils. The fact that it's in both X and Y makes it even weirder. Like I said, zero experience with the machine here, just thinking out loud....

[rx8pilot]

You are probably right. Maybe an offset register like you said earlier.

[H.O]

Another idea... I guess it's using a downlooking camera for fiducials, could that have shifted or had its offset values changed.

[rx8pilot]

Either that or the up camera is being used and not offset correctly. If either is the case, should be an easy fix. Both of my cameras were off when I first got it. After getting the offsets dialed in, it has been tight since. The Quad Align camera also needs some inspection - it could be sending incorrect offset data after it scans the part.

[WhiteMatterLLC]

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading about your experiences with the Quad 4000C! Thank you so much for documenting this for future users.

Our company is purchasing a Quad 4000C (with Windows XP) and I am in charge of figuring out  how to get it to place 0201 components.

I am trying to track down a user manual (PPM wants over $100 for it...) and training videos. If anyone has these and would like to share, I would be very appreciative!

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[rx8pilot]

I have the programming manual that they emailed to me for free. I do not, however, have any documentation of the hardware or the machine setup, calibration, etc. All of that I had to figure out on my own with substantial pain and suffering. The software can do what needs to be done and it is stable - but it is about as intuitive as a 100,000 piece jig saw puzzle. I shot 'reminder' videos of most of the programming that I have to watch regularly to remind myself how to setup the machine. The programming manual is so poorly organized and is missing many of the diagrams. It is definitely helpful, but you need to be a hacker to figure it out. 

YouTube Videos that are helpful. Painful, slow, scattered, but helpful.





For 0201, you will need at least the slim feeders and the precision 0201 nozzle. The precision 2mm pitch feeders are really the way to go from an outfit in San Diego.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121716883289?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

PPM sells a 2mm pitch precision feeder but it is more expensive than the value it provides. As much as possible, I want to support PPM because they are needed to keep these machines running. The problem is that they still have the parts and service rates that were appropriate in the 90's. My interest in this older machine was the low cost of entry into a pro machine. I have less than $10k in it total. If I went to PPM for every detail and training, it simply would not exist at all since the cost would have tripled. Once I got to the bigger numbers, I would have been keen to look at newer machines.

Where is your machine coming from? Where are you located?
Feeders? Options? Are you doing in-house assembly for engineering support or for an assembly business?

[WhiteMatterLLC]

Thanks for linking your reminder videos! You mentioned them in a previous post, so it's nice that you are sharing those as well.

We are picking up the machine in North Carolina and we are located in Seattle, Washington. It is for in-house assembly work, since we are at a point that human percision is just too tedious and prone to mistake. We would normally just pay an assembly shop to do the boards for us, but we are in a situation that that becomes too costly. Small volume, high precision, can't use stencils to place solder, plus we would like the ability to swap out some components to change the amplifiers for certain customers.

The company selling us the machine has it up and running as we speak, plus they have offered to give me a crash course on programing it. Hopefully this means I can have this baby up and running quickly! As for feeders, they are offering to give us as many feeders as we need for our small operation, given that they don't need the ones we want. From reading your blog I have gathered that 0201 components work better with a the smaller indexing feeder, but they still work with the normal 8mm feeder. Is that correct? And as for nozzles, we plan on purchasing them from Count on Tools. http://www.nozzles4smt.com/Quad-0201-Nozzle-with-906-Ceramic-Tip_p_1598.html] [url]http://www.nozzles4smt.com/Quad-0201-Nozzle-with-906-Ceramic-Tip_p_1598.html [/url]

Being a start up company, we too are looking to save money wherever possible. One of our reasons for choosing this machine was that it is still supported by PPM, and they have been very poractive in communication with us. We would like to support PPM as much as possible, but I guess we will just have to see how expensive they are relative to the free market.

[rx8pilot]

The videos are made from PPM - I have not published my videos yet.

The challenge with small parts on tapes is not the indexing distance - but the repeat-ability. The standard 8mm feeders only get the part close to where it should be, not exactly where it should be. The 'slim' feeders are still 4mm indexing but much better repeat ability and I use them for 0402 with no issues. For 0201, they will probably pick most parts, but there will be more chance of mis-picks. For reliable, 'works everytime' 0201 you will need the SlimPRO or ThinPRO feeders that have tighter mechanics. The system has no way of knowing where the parts actually are, you tell it where they should be and that that is were it will pick up every time. If you don't pickup close to the center of the part, they tend to go crooked and the Quad Align will fail. When you think of how small the 0201 is, the target to pick is very small. I am saving my money to load the machine with as many 0201 feeders as I can afford. Right now, my design choices are dictated by the limitation of the the P&P I have.

Take a look at the JEDEC variable width cut tape holders I made. They allow me to do low-volume 0201 perfectly, but keeping the tapes loaded is not easy. Real feeders are the way to go.

It is for in-house assembly work, since we are at a point that human percision is just too tedious and prone to mistake. We would normally just pay an assembly shop to do the boards for us, but we are in a situation that that becomes too costly. Small volume, high precision, can't use stencils to place solder, plus we would like the ability to swap out some components to change the amplifiers for certain customers.

That is pretty much my story. Having  batch of 20 PCB's done was VERY expensive and time consuming. My boards are almost all double sided, fine pitch, and low volume. The organization, kitting, setups fees, lead-time, and lack of flexibility is a deal killer. The P&P process (machine, oven, printer, tools, skills) overall are a total PITA - but less than outsourcing a variety of prototypes, pilot runs, specials, etc. After the blood, sweat, and tears - it was a great decision.

Random notes:
Do not underestimate the challenge of printing paste. It is a very unforgiving and critical part  of the process. Re-work of fine pitch parts will quickly eat up the time saved by automatic placing. You have to nail the printing which starts with a good stencil design and ends with delicate skill. Anyone can do SOIC and 0805 blindfolded - fine pitch rapidly gets more difficult and the penalties get steeper.

McMaster Carr is your friend. PPM has bearings and every other part - but McMaster is a fraction of the cost for literally the exact same part - brand/part number.

The power plugs on the feeder banks can be plugged in backward - don't do that. It's bad.

The rollers and belts should be fresh to work well. They are very easy to replace and not too expensive - I got them from PPM. The metal rollers get gunked up and sticky. They don't need to be replaced, but removed, cleaned, greased. If they are sticky, the tape will not peel and you will regularly scream the darkest of profanities.

Clean the contact strip on the feeder bases, they get dirty and the the feeders 5v control section does not like anything to get in it's way. Not sure why the 5V power rail is routed all over creation and it's lossy once you get a full rack of feeders in place. If the voltage gets below 4.75V at the feeders - the reliability goes down.

I cloned the HDD and replaced it with an SSD with IDE interface. I also clone that regularly with Acronis to a USB and the cloud. re-configuring the system with XP and all the proprietary drivers is not an experience I am willing to have. Learn how to backup the data base of programs and parts off the computer as well. With this system, you don't save files - it all goes into a database that you will learn to hate but have to live with.

Keep sharp objects, poisons, and firearms at a considerable distance when you are going through the learning curve. You will say WTF! about a million times since nothing at all in the software is intuitive. 

Post picks and experiences - I will help if possible. Congratulations - it will be a great tool to have (after you learn it)

[mikeselectricstuff]

Hopefully this means I can have this baby up and running quickly!

Nobody, ever in all history has got a pick & place machine & full assembly process up and running quickly, unless they've done it before.
It's not just about the machine and all its quirks, but all the little details of all the processes, any one of which can bite you.
As mentioned before, there will be frustration and probably swearing before everything is going smoothly.
 

[WhiteMatterLLC]

Thank you for all of the notes! It's probalby a good thing that I don't have access to any high balconies. It's probably a little masochistic, but I am really looking forward to the challenge of getting this PnP machine working.

I think we have budgeted a decent chunk of money for feeders. It's too bad that they are so expensive, but if it means that production is easier and more repeatable then it will be worth the expenditure.

Did you end up using a vacuum system over an air compressor? Noise is a concern, plus we would like to take up as little space as possible.

[rx8pilot]

It's probably a little masochistic, but I am really looking forward to the challenge of getting this PnP machine working.

With all the pain and suffering - I did enjoy the process. I really walked in blind - not knowing the process or the machine. To make it more fun, I purchased a broken machine that I had never seen and had no practical access to manuals. That is a LOT masochistic for sure.

Did you end up using a vacuum system over an air compressor? Noise is a concern, plus we would like to take up as little space as possible.

I built a vac system. 80/20 framing, Gast pump, electrical on DIN rails, valves, tank, gauge, etc. Its quiet and does not need to run much since it has a tank to hold vac. The air compressor is a 1.5hp California rocker type that is about as quiet as a piston compressor can be. The machine only needs a tiny volume of compressed air for the puff off. The size was chosen to be capable of making venturi vacuum if the primary vac system fails - I love backup plans. I also use it to clear the apertures on the stencils.

On top of all my other backups, I have the entire P&P on a big rack mount UPS for filtering, leveling, and power outage protection. The electronics are old and expensive, clean and stable power gives me a better chance of survival.

[rx8pilot]

There are a number of pics that I never put in this thread.


The PC rack slide was never installed correctly and was destroyed. I re-mounted it and cleaned up all the cables in the process. Re mounted the monitor/keyboard too.


This is another pic of the PC mounting repair and you can see the vacuum rig on the floor. I put considerable effort into the vacuum so that I would never have to worry about it. 80/20 framing, and all high-end industrial parts.


Not quite finished vac pump system.


CNC machining the PCB holder clamps. Without the PCB pallets, I would not be able to do small and odd shape PCB's. Deal killer.


Cut tape JEDEC tray holders coming together. I would make some improvements if I did these again, but overall not bad. Saved me from needing to by parts on reels and a lot more feeders.


Test fitting the tapes.


Any width tape in either 6in or 12in lengths. A real problem solver for short runs.


Loaded in the machine, ready to roll.


The software was not really ready for these holders so I had to get creative. The matrix trays are defined in a config file that is somewhat hidden. I found it and learned the syntax of the config well enough to add my own custom trays. This is a critical stop-gap to be able to do prototypes and 0201 parts that I don't have feeders for. They were not easy to program and align, but I am very thankful to have them.

[l0wside]

Oh and as far as splicing...  I would never pay $600 for a tool that didn't do the job almost completely automated. 

Well, to be fair, the tool is half that. The rest of the cost is the consumables ranging from 8mm to 56mm. Seems simple enough to deal with flat paper tapes but the deep pocketed plastic tapes for bigger components like inductors and push buttons seem harder. A website called http://www.nozzles4smt.com/ has a cut tape carrier that is adjustable to use various width tapes. Looks promising for my kind of work. They also have other consumables for Quads - nozzles, rollers, etc.

How do you handle this issue now? Have you purchased the splicing tool (600$ is not exactly cheap), or have you found a different solution?
I have one component (QFN36 in plastic tape) which is not available from the usual suppliers, but way too expensive to purchase a full reel.

Max

[rx8pilot]

How do you handle this issue now? Have you purchased the splicing tool (600$ is not exactly cheap), or have you found a different solution?
I have one component (QFN36 in plastic tape) which is not available from the usual suppliers, but way too expensive to purchase a full reel.

Max

It did not take long to figure out that I can load a tape with no leader at all. I just have a kapton tape dispenser with 3 widths to connect the cover tape to the end of the previous tape - quite easy and I never lose the first part. The end of the tape is a different matter since the feeders cannot advance all the way to the last pocket. For resistors and capacitors, it's not a big deal to lose a few. With $6-8 parts from Linear Tech - I am more inclined to solve the problem.

What I do on those as a work around is remove the last few parts on the cut tape and line them up next to my feeder loading station. After a some parts have been placed - I take out the feeder and manually back it up putting in the parts that were previously at the end. It is a little fiddly, but allows me to push forward without the expensive splicing tool. The first few times it felt like a major problem. Now that I have done it a whole bunch - I am quick. At this point, I have better places to put $600. It would take a long time for that tool to make up the time needed to justify it.

The next big effort for me is to get the vibe feeder setup to do a variety of tubes. I am still manually placing all parts that come in tubes which is a pain, especially since I have the vibe feeder already.

[ElkoShop]

Last week I picked up two Quad 4c assemblers. (DOS Controller)  I have them both powered up, both home on power up, but I cannot get the HHT to move the head on either machine.
The only thing I can seem to do is home the machine with the HHT.
Is there a sequence to enable head movement?

Thanks in advance.
Steve

[rx8pilot]

The Windows controller is a total do-over - no relation to the original DOS setup as far as software is concerned.

You put two of these things in your house? Starting a business?

[ElkoShop]

I was hoping to get a reply about the HHT from one of the dos guys. Posted here because I hoped one of them might be still be following this thread.

Nope, not starting a business, one machine is heading to Fl (after I can get the kinks out) and the other one (along with extras) will probably be sold.
Have a friend down there and we have been building some small boards by hand. These machines used to share a controller, so the extra won't have one.

I took a non-functional one apart 6 years ago and made a cnc router out of it.

Steve

[Kjelt]

I did not want to continue to hijack the Neoden topic discussing the Quad, so continuing here 

So what is it, first you state that if the Neoden is fully supported by OpenPNP you would switch , which I doubt since it is not as robust as a professional machine you now have, then you say that only a professional $100k+ machine will be able to replace it. If you have nly look at the feeders the Neoden is in a total different league IMO.

I should clarify....
I like the commercial elements of my current setup with the Quad. Sturdy and clearly designed for 24/7 use. Nothing to complain about...until I get to the maintenance or replacement part. In general, I cannot afford a $100k replacement but I also hesitant to pay big money to keep an old machine running. I am on the lookout for a fairly low cost replacement and it does not need to be amazing - only better than what I have in terms of maintenance costs.

My usage is infrequent, but when I need PCB's I need them NOW. So, like I said, as time marches on, the challenge of keeping a Quad running will increase. At some point a low-cost replacement will be on my radar. If my little biz grows to needing PCB assembly all the time - a high-end machine may make sense. As I am configured now, I can only consider the low cost options and accept the various limitations that come with that.

I only got into the Quad because it was a low-cost of entry and I have been able to expand over time to increase capability. There was never an option to go with a modern, high-end system.

I understand. Since you are someone with many talents mechanically as well electronically, did you think about an overview to look what it would take to adapt your (or extra other)  Quad to OpenPNP and 2017 hardware (USB camera's , closed loop steppers or servo's, Win10) etc? Would that not be a viable option towards an entirely new less quality P&P machine ?