Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC

[rx8pilot]

Hard to say. It seems that it would be fairly straightforward with the exception of the Quad Align system. I have no idea how that sub-system works or communicates with the control system. 6

Considering that I now have a huge assortment of feeders - 230 tape feeders, 6 custom strip feeders that can accommodate 22pcs of 8mm tape each, Vibe feeders that I have customized to take any tube, plus JEDEC trays. It has grown into a rather serious setup but that does not quite help me forget that it is all quite old electronics. If the ancient vision system has an issue, it may be a very expensive thing to fix or replace.

It is very nice to able to load up 80 parts at a time while still having pre-loaded feeders to swap jobs fast. The small Neoden N4 class machines simply cannot handle that many parts (on top of other limitations). Also, it seems the entry level machines struggle with 0402 and smaller. My last design used 30 different 0402 parts and I am hoping to move to 0201 as well.

At the moment, I am trying to plan for an unexpected failure. If I was going to convert the machine to OpenPNP with updated motion control - I would buy a non-working Quad and start from there. Probably swap the steppers with servos (which I already have a bunch of Maxon motors and drives that would probably work) The machine already has glass linear encoders for X/Y.  Would just hope to work out a solution for the side scanning laser which is one of the best features of this system.

I have no intention of replacing this system until I am pushed to do so. At the moment, it is getting the job done.

[PrintTec]

Dear RX8pilot,

We can do 0402 with Neoden and even 0201!

Best regards,

Robert Joosten
http://www.printtec.nl/contents/en-uk/d596_NeoDen_pick___place_machines_with_vision.html

[rx8pilot]

That is good news. I feel like I would need at least 2 (maybe 3) of the N4's to get my jobs done in the same time because of the limited number of feeders. By then, I am up to >$30k plus feeders at which point I would be thinking of a used commercial machine that is still supported.

For 0402/0201 - is it safe to assume you have to image each one of them with the up-facing camera? What is the typical error rate for mis-picking 0402/0201? Is it able to pickup heavy inductors? Tall parts like electrolytic caps?

[mikeselectricstuff]

That is good news. I feel like I would need at least 2 (maybe 3) of the N4's to get my jobs done in the same time because of the limited number of feeders. By then, I am up to >$30k plus feeders at which point I would be thinking of a used commercial machine that is still supported.

For 0402/0201 - is it safe to assume you have to image each one of them with the up-facing camera? What is the typical error rate for mis-picking 0402/0201? Is it able to pickup heavy inductors? Tall parts like electrolytic caps?

Any P&P would have to image 0402/0201 parts - no way these could be done reliably without
N4 can't do tall parts die to the see-saw head design.

[rx8pilot]

Any P&P would have to image 0402/0201 parts - no way these could be done reliably without
N4 can't do tall parts die to the see-saw head design.

This is a distinct advantage of the Quad system - it uses a side scan that is integrated into the head. That allows it to image and apply correction while it is moving to the placement location. Super quick and theoretically accurate enough for 01005 assuming you have the right nozzles.

The downside is that the parts are obsolete for the most part so maintenance can be a challenge.

[solarbotics]

I picked up a Quad 4000C from them a few years ago, and they pointed me to a few of their Youtube training videos.

I downloaded and watched them and created a time index for them. If anybody is interested, I can see about compiling them up into a useful link/post.

Regards,
Dave

[rx8pilot]

I picked up a Quad 4000C from them a few years ago, and they pointed me to a few of their Youtube training videos.

I downloaded and watched them and created a time index for them. If anybody is interested, I can see about compiling them up into a useful link/post.

Regards,
Dave

This is good news - the raw video is marginal if I am being generous.

I shot a whole bunch of video for setups, but never posted it to my Factory400 channel. There are so few people that have these machines configured in the PPM 4000C. Do you still have your machine? Do you do much small part placement 0402 and smaller?

[solarbotics]

I'm replying from that very machine now (glad the terminal can run RDP to my proper workstation).

I don't place 0402 with it - mostly 0804 and some 0603. I think I could do finer, but I'd have to fix my out-of-spec runout on my nozzle first.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gj5nM0AzDsevxXsaP46LfILeit25iCpN

Hope it helps somebody else! I've made good use of the video index a few times now.

[rx8pilot]

ooooh...those videos are so very painful but ultimately helped me get setup and running.

[solarbotics]

I just finished decyphering the matrix tray setup video too. Not that bad:

0:00:00 - Introduction to 4C Custom tray Mount Setup, cleanup tabletop
0:02:51 - Start introducing User device

    Program Definition / "User Devices" button under "Customer column"
    00:04:01 - "Machine Configuration" to find new tabletop items?

00:06:15 - "Matrix Tray holders Tab "CustomMatrxTrayMount4C" ..  2Pos" - case sensitive

    Lets you configure you the MOUNT / HOLDER (not the tray)

07:45 - Bottom - "Tray Mounts" configures tray locations
08:15 - Matrix tray Holder options defined
09:50 - Fiducial locations on the Tray HOLDER

    Used to easily use camera to find corners

11:23 - Tray mount position (UL/UR/etc)

    X/Y from the Tray Holder 0,0

19:22 - Configure up custom tray

    "Matrix Trays" tab under "User Defined Devices"
    Configured from X/Y from defined reference corner (top left, right/etc)


    Teach Tabletop Devices - This is where we are going to put whatever matrix tray HOLDER into the machine. It establishes it's XY coordinates.
    Trayholders Tab - Add in the tray you want to put onto the holder
    Select any pocket (highlights) and move to it to see if it's correct
    Somehow Ref1 and Ref2 (Table objects) refer to the fiducials drilled into the matrix tray mount
    HAHA! Right click on a pocket (TL, BR, BL) and assign them as references REF #1, 2, and 3. Pick them off with the controller, and it's aligned!

When filling trays (teach tabletop devices / User / Matrix trays) right click and use popup menu to establish what's in there (picked, empty, disabled, whatever). FILL - totally fills the whole thing.

[rx8pilot]

When filling trays (teach tabletop devices / User / Matrix trays) right click and use popup menu to establish what's in there (picked, empty, disabled, whatever). FILL - totally fills the whole thing.

That is a super annoying thing.

My big challenge was to create matrix tray 'strips' to accommodate my custom holders that can have any size tape in them. It took a while to figure it out, but in the end I can have any mix of tapes on the table.

[solarbotics]

I'm having a hell of a time resolving how to omit one image in a panel that didn't pass QC.

I'll have a "reject" fiducial marker image near the panel, and the machine will detect it, but then will totally reject the WHOLE board, not just that one image (1 of 10 on the panel).

Sooo, how else to disable populating a bad image? Sure, I can go to "Panel Configuration", sort by image, group-select everything in that image and "disable" them, but then toggling them back on means I have to catch all the optional "off" elements in the image I usually have off.

In "run program", I can't do the same "sort by image" (and simply toggle it to "placed"). Closest I've managed to come to is "sort by placement", then scroll through the various nozzle changes and find those image placements. TEDIOUS.

Anybody else have a method to temporarily turn off population of one image in a set?

[rx8pilot]

Anybody else have a method to temporarily turn off population of one image in a set?

I run them from the TEACH PLACEMENTS window where I just select the ones I want. It is not too terrible, but enough that I tend to avoid panels with X-out sections.

There is little question that the PPM software is marginal if I am being nice about it - my workflow is all about working around the bad decisions or lack of features in the PPM software.

As you pointed out.....using partial matrix trays is stupid. The system makes it so difficult/tedious to skip empty pockets. The RUN mode offers very little control to deal with empty feeders or mis-picks - so I run a ton of boards from the TEACH mode where I can control the process a lot more.

Either way - I still believe this system is leaps and bounds above any of the low-cost Chinese offerings and a fraction of the cost of a new-ish commercial option. I have slowly learned how to get boards assembled with it and now rather quick setting up and operating the machine.

[solarbotics]

Yeah, that's sorta what I do to. Kinda an oversight not to let us sort by clicking column headers like any modern software. I should call them and see if their software has been updated at all lately.

A few years ago I sent them a little heart-felt diatribe telling them that as a SMALL company, they should open-source (at least) their feeder schematics and gain a toe-hold in a new and up&coming field. Told them how 3D printing made CAM much easier, and they should consider opening their standards and let the OSH world adopt them and use their feeders as a template. Never got feedback on that. 

Further to that, YES I wish their software was nicer to play with. I have NO idea what database format this is, and wish that standard was published.

[rx8pilot]

Yeah, that's sorta what I do to. Kinda an oversight not to let us sort by clicking column headers like any modern software. I should call them and see if their software has been updated at all lately.

Nope. Even if it was, they would be asking some insane amount of money for it.

A few years ago I sent them a little heart-felt diatribe telling them that as a SMALL company, they should open-source (at least) their feeder schematics and gain a toe-hold in a new and up&coming field. Told them how 3D printing made CAM much easier, and they should consider opening their standards and let the OSH world adopt them and use their feeders as a template. Never got feedback on that. 

They have all been very nice and helpful to me, but the business appears to be rooted in times gone by. The pricing for used spare parts is enough that if my machine had a couple of significant failures - I would just dump it and look at other options. There is no way I would put many thousands more into this machine to replace the vision system or some other high-value sub-system.  I am going to assume that they would rather see these machines slowly fade with them than do anything to push them along. I think you are more likely to win the lottery three times in a row than see PPM go that direction.

I have even considered making my own feeder control PCB - it would be cheaper, easier, and higher performance than getting the schematics for a design that goes back to the early 90's.

[JeremyCanary]

Hey All

Thought I would jump into this thread. I'm an EE at a small electronics company with a whopping 17 Quad machines of various models. Aside from EE related duties, I also keep these workhorses running (or atleast attempt to) for the operators on our production line.

I'm relatively new to working on these machines, but i'm sure we can all teach each other a thing about running these interesting and often PIA, pick and place machines.

-Jeremy

[rx8pilot]

Hey All

Thought I would jump into this thread. I'm an EE at a small electronics company with a whopping 17 Quad machines of various models. Aside from EE related duties, I also keep these workhorses running (or atleast attempt to) for the operators on our production line.

I'm relatively new to working on these machines, but i'm sure we can all teach each other a thing about running these interesting and often PIA, pick and place machines.

-Jeremy

Awesome! Glad you chimed in.
Are any of your machines using PPM software on Windows 7/8/10?

My biggest area of fussiness is the feeders with small parts. I have some of the precision feeders and in the process of modifying the standard 8mm to be precision feeders.
I need to place mainly 0402 passives now - going from 0805....to 0603.....and now 0402 as my designs have become more and more dense. If all of my 8mm feeders were perfect enough to do 0402 all day long, I would be super happy.

[JeremyCanary]

No, none of our machines are on windows 7 or later. They're all running XP. I did find some documentation about windows 7 stashed away when I assumed the responsibilities of the person before me. Perhaps the person before me had plans to experiment with later iterations of windows, I think i'll look into it.

As for parts in the 0402 package type, I believe one of our products has a few 0402 resistors and/or caps (I can't remember off the top of my head). I can double check when I pop into the office tomorrow morning. I do know that the our parts database in the qsoft software has an 0402 profile. We have a few precision feeders as well.

[rx8pilot]

My system is XP as well - just forgot to put that in my question.

As far as I have learned -there is no benefit to later versions of Windows. Qsoft is still Qsoft regardless of the OS version.
Do any of your machines use the old MS-DOS software/hardware?

[JeremyCanary]

At one point they were. We invested a pretty penny getting them all upgraded from DOS to XP.

[JeremyCanary]

I'm curious to see how your modification to the 8mm feeders works out in order to place 0402 parts! Keep us updated!

[rx8pilot]

I'm curious to see how your modification to the 8mm feeders works out in order to place 0402 parts! Keep us updated!

For sure!
I have no plans to make a business out of them, but if I can offset the R&D by selling off a few - I would do it. My goal is to do about 60 or so once I get it dialed in.

I have to CNC machine the tape sprocket, motor encoder, modify the main casting, and add a gear tensioner. In batches - it is not too bad. Having a reliable capability to do 0402/0201 parts will be amazing. I already have the designs, donor feeders, tools, and a Haas Super Mini Mill that barely gets used.

[jmelson]

I've been looking to upgrade my Philips CSM84 P&P, it is not accurate enough.

I need to do some TSSOP and QFP parts with 0.5 to 0.65 mm lead pitch.  Also, the centering jaws on the CSM seem to only handle parts with the right width to length ratio, square parts are not accurately placed.

I've been offered a Quad 4C that might be in my price range.  But, I'd like to hear more about how well your machine is working for you now that you've had time to run it.  How is the vision programming, how accurate is it on the fine stuff, how reliable is it as to the machine, and also the picking reliability?

Thanks much,

Jon

[rx8pilot]

Mine runs on Windows XP through Windows 10 - although I have elected to leave it on XP and currently disconnected from the network.

It is a rather precise and reliable platform. The Quad Align system is really nice as it is able to scan the part while it moves from the feeder to the placement position. It really has no issues with fine pitch components at all. The up looking camera rarely gets used, but when you need it you really need it. I have placed very fine pitch parts without any issues. It is stepper based motion with fast ball screws, but uses glass scales for very repeatable performance.

The feeders are a mixed bag. The quality varies considerably over the years. I have about 250 feeders or so and find that they regularly require some TLC. For smaller parts like 0402 and 0201 you have to have the slim precision feeders, but they are also not all created equal. I have about 25 precision feeders that I have worked on enough to get solid reliability. The others get used for larger parts that do not need the precision.

I have a modification that I am doing to the standard 8mm feeders to make them very precise and planning to make about 15-20 of those over time as I need them. They are capable of 01005 parts if i spring for the very expensive nozzle needed for those parts.

Overall, I have been very happy with this system for the money and time it has required. It is such an unforgiving process and nice to have a solid placement machine. Like any other P&P, it requires a lot of attention up front and a person that can recognize the myriad of subtle details that make the difference between success and failure. Since you already have the experience, you undoubtedly know what I am saying.

The financial low-down: Mine was initially $5k with about 50 feeders if I recall correctly, but broken and not workable. I slowly repaired the system and taught myself how to use it. At the time that I placed my first part I had put another $1000 into it. Over time, I purchased more feeders and machined various accessories and replacement parts. As it sits today, I probably have about $7k or a little more in it. It is FAR more capable than a Neoden or whatever other Chinese build-to-the-lowest-price special that cost a lot more than that.

The PPM software eventually gets the job done but is really bizarre. I have heard the DOS version is actually better in some ways although I cannot say myself.

Hope this helps.

[jmelson]

I've had a few phone conversations with PPM.  They said something about the 8mm feeders taking up two slots.  Does this mean a machine with 98 feeder locations can only take 49 8mm feeders?  Yikes!  The Philips CSM series, Samsung CP and SM series and a few others have standard feeders that mount on 16 mm centers.  If this is true, then it sure is going to send me away from any machines using Quad feeders.  I hope you can clear this up.

Thanks,

Jon