Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC

[Falcon69]

Most industrial machines, like CNC Routers. Lasers, Pick And Place, etc. Require a yearly license to operate the software require to run it.  Most of these machines can only use the manufactures software to run them.

Where I used to work, we had a CNC router that we had to pay a yearly subscription fee to run it with the supplied software. If we wanted to use different software, we would have had to buy a complete separate Driver/computer system to work the machine, and then try and figure out how to connect all the servos, spindle, spindle attachments, etc. to the new system.  More pain than it is worth to just pay for the yearly fee.  It really does suck, pay $500,000 for a machine, than pay more money every year just to run it.

[rx8pilot]

This machine package was being liquidated for $5k. If I purchased the same thing refurbished from PPM, it would be about $55k or so. I assumed when I purchased that I would have to put something into it. The software license is perpetual for about $1500. Still not bad at all for what it will do.

Just the feeders alone are worth around $25k +

[Kjelt]

If I purchased the same thing refurbished from PPM, it would be about $55k or so.

You buy a brand new Mechatronika P&P M10V for €17k or MX70 for €25k but I guess this machine is better? 
Anyway I can not understand if someone would buy this machine for $55k, there are many more new and fully supported alternatives.
Ofcourse the money you spent is very nice amount if you get it up and running 

The software license is perpetual for about $1500.

So is the original manufacturer bankrupt and has PPM taken over their rights or why do you have to pay for software where there is no owner of? 

I assumed when I purchased that I would have to put something into it. Still not bad at all for what it will do.

Take a note of all the hours you will have to put into it , can add up.
BTW are you sure the phoneservice of PPM is free of charge, I mean it would be APITA if they sent you a bill for $75/hr afterwards 

[rx8pilot]

The machine is only $28k. Adding 55 various feeders is the rest of the cost. It can have up to 115 feeders plus trays which is substantial. Not sure if that is comparable to M10V or MX70.

The Quad line is owned by PPM, not just supported. Quad was purchased by Tyco and then sold to PPM. Tyco still has parts from what I understand. PPM has moved to Win7 now and I have the option of upgrading if Win XP gets too annoying.

[Kjelt]

The machine is only $28k. Adding 55 various feeders is the rest of the cost. It can have up to 115 feeders plus trays which is substantial. Not sure if that is comparable to M10V or MX70. 

Probably is, the prices I mentioned are starting prices so without many feeders probably which add considerably to the costs.
Can you get new wheels for your feeders or do you have to make them yourself?

PPM has moved to Win7 now and I have the option of upgrading if Win XP gets too annoying.

What I remember from my music workstation on XP is that you have to remove a lot of OS overhead stuff that can interfere with real time behaviour.
If tweaked correctly it can be very usefull.
I am not sure if in your case the windows PC does real time control or that there is another embedded platform in between that buffers all commands like with a CNC but probably because you have vision it is PC control only ? Just see how it goes, as long as you don't connect the pc to the internet (no security updates anymore for XP).

[mikeselectricstuff]

So you buy a machine and it does nothing unless you pay more money? What's up with that?

It cost a tenth of what it should have.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The software license is perpetual for about $1500.

So is the original manufacturer bankrupt and has PPM taken over their rights or why do you have to pay for software where there is no owner of? 

AIUI PPM have written new software, the original machine ran on DOS

[rx8pilot]

It's 'Sort Of' Alive!

I got the new PIC MCU (aka license security) installed and the machine moves! Big step forward for sure. The problem is that there is still some sort of issue with the vision controller card that is in the PC chassis. It is an OLD ISA bus controller that interfaces the PC with the image processor that is a separate sub system inside the machine. I cannot remember the last time I had to deal with an ISA bus and I never had to deal with it on a PC running XP. The PC running XP is a single board computer that plugs into a backplane with PCI and ISA expansion slots. I cannot tell if the problem is with XP needing some configuration tweak or if the old ISA hardware is broken. There are quite a few things that could be wrong from a shorted capacitor to a registry entry in XP.  Going back in time.

The only troubleshooting I have done on the card is measured the resistance of the power rail - 170 ohms. Seems low, but not ridiculous. No obvious signs of damage. The PCB is littered with old school 74xx logic, a pair of small FIFO CMOS memory (guessing these are buffers), and some mystery chips with 16bit hex address labels. Don't know where to start troubleshooting since I don't have any information at all about what this card does. A 'new' one is $200 to $500 depending on where I go to get it. PPM is convinced the board is dead, but that may be because they have a ton of them for sale at $500 each. I can't spend too much time on it so I may bite the bullet and buy the PPM one because they will actually support the installation troubleshooting if needed.

ICOS MVS922 Vision Controller. ICOS is now owned by KLA Tencor and I do not think they have any legacy docs that old.


UPDATE:
Still not sure what the card does in detail, but I did figure out that it has two RS485 ports that are communicating with the rest of the vision system. The PPM replacement is $500 plus my old card as a core exchange. I went for one that I found for $200 in unknown condition , but the seller said he will take returns if it is dead. At least then I will have one that can be used as a reference. Hoping it will work and hoping this is not the beginning of discovering a dead machine.

Most of the feeders need some TLC as mentioned before. I found all the parts and got prices, each feeder will range from $30 - $60 in parts but I do not need to do them all at once. I think I will go with a minimum for now to get some PCB's out the door and finish the rest over time. Total cost on the feeder refurb will be about $2500 US for 55 feeders, which is about the cost of 5 new feeders. I wish it was less but this is not yet a surprise. In my CNC machining days, I could blink my eyes and spend $2500.

[Corporate666]

Most industrial machines, like CNC Routers. Lasers, Pick And Place, etc. Require a yearly license to operate the software require to run it.  Most of these machines can only use the manufactures software to run them.

That's not my experience at all.. I've never seen an industrial machine that requires a yearly fee for the software.  Not to say there aren't some out there, but it has to be the exception to the rule, or specific to some industries.  I've got a lot of experience with PnP's, CNC milling machines and lathes, industrial lasers, routers and various robotics and I've never seen any that require an annual license.  Seems like highway robbery.

[Corporate666]

This machine package was being liquidated for $5k. If I purchased the same thing refurbished from PPM, it would be about $55k or so. I assumed when I purchased that I would have to put something into it. The software license is perpetual for about $1500. Still not bad at all for what it will do.

Just the feeders alone are worth around $25k +

They told you that machine is $55k new?   

They quoted me $28k for one and agreed to throw in whatever I wanted for feeders... or $23k for a refurbished/warranties machine with the DOS software, of $12k (or thereabouts) for a non-refurbished but guaranteed working model. 

[rx8pilot]

They quoted me $28k as well for the machine and I just added up the cost of all the feeders. How many feeders would they throw in for the $28k?

[rx8pilot]

With the machine at $28k, I added the asking price for the feeders from the 'reconditioned' prices and came up with $24,250. Total is $52k. They may throw in a few freebies if I walked in with a checkbook in hand.

[Corporate666]

They quoted me $28k as well for the machine and I just added up the cost of all the feeders. How many feeders would they throw in for the $28k?

When I talked to them about buying a machine a couple of years back, I think I had said I would need around 30 feeders and they said they would throw in whatever # I needed as part of the deal, I am positive I could have gotten a fair bit more.  I think PPM is starting to realize these machines aren't worth anywhere NEAR the prices they are asking for them.  At the end of the day, it's a 3600pph gantry PnP. There is an 8-head Philips Topaz on eBay for $12.5k asking (or best offer) - that is an 18,000CPH machine and Philips is a top brand that is still around.  There's a Juki 750 for $16k - an 11,000cph machine with feeders that I bet can be bought for $12k.   And a GSM Dual Beam for $19k that will do 20,000cph and I bet can be bought for $15k.   And when you get into the range PPM wants to charge for a windows machine with feeders, well there is a Philips Opal XII on Ebay for $48k that I bet could be bought for $40k.  That's a whole other class of machine - it will do micro BGA, 01005 parts at 15,000cph+.  So I think PPM's market for machines is probably shrinking real quick.  They have been in touch a few times to solicit me on the Windows upgrade.


As far as your machine - let me know you make out with the board.  Did you check your voltages on that card to be sure it's not getting fried by something upstream? 

[coppice]

They quoted me $28k as well for the machine and I just added up the cost of all the feeders. How many feeders would they throw in for the $28k?

When I talked to them about buying a machine a couple of years back, I think I had said I would need around 30 feeders and they said they would throw in whatever # I needed as part of the deal, I am positive I could have gotten a fair bit more.  I think PPM is starting to realize these machines aren't worth anywhere NEAR the prices they are asking for them.  At the end of the day, it's a 3600pph gantry PnP. There is an 8-head Philips Topaz on eBay for $12.5k asking (or best offer) - that is an 18,000CPH machine and Philips is a top brand that is still around.  There's a Juki 750 for $16k - an 11,000cph machine with feeders that I bet can be bought for $12k.   And a GSM Dual Beam for $19k that will do 20,000cph and I bet can be bought for $15k.   And when you get into the range PPM wants to charge for a windows machine with feeders, well there is a Philips Opal XII on Ebay for $48k that I bet could be bought for $40k.  That's a whole other class of machine - it will do micro BGA, 01005 parts at 15,000cph+.  So I think PPM's market for machines is probably shrinking real quick.  They have been in touch a few times to solicit me on the Windows upgrade.


As far as your machine - let me know you make out with the board.  Did you check your voltages on that card to be sure it's not getting fried by something upstream?

Its amazing how many models of PnP machine have been made. I wonder what the production volume has been like for most of these?

[rx8pilot]

Competition will do that. This industrial gear goes cheap when a company goes under or merges with another. I sure hope they are negotiable at PPM on the maintenance pieces and parts. The whole idea was to operate in a 'bargain' mode for a while and I will only operate this thing a few days per month. If I have to pour money into it and fiddle with it all the time, it will be frustrating for sure. If I can get a couple of years out of it with modest maintenance costs, I would be totally happy. I would not even slightly benefit from a 10,000 CPH machine or the maintenance costs associated with a higher end machine. One of the things I like about this model is that I can do so much of the maintenance. I would guess that I will place about <20k parts per month. In my previous manual efforts that would take about 55+ hours or local assembly house would be about $5,000. The problem that I have with assembly houses is that I have to document and kit the whole thing and provide a reference. After that, I have to wait a few days to get into their system followed by crossing my fingers they don't mess up - my fault or theirs dos not matter. For the foreseeable future, I will continue to do small batches which is deadly with contract manufacturing. At $5k per month in assembly costs, it does not take too long for this to make sense even working in the labor. I will never have the fingers crossed, can't sleep at night feeling with a batch run of a new design at the CM. I can setup and run one board and test it myself.

As I sit now, it looks like I will be able to make PCB's with about $2k in addition to what I originally paid - $7k total so far. If I can get them to soften up on the license ($1500) I would be pretty happy about that. All the other feeder parts and reel arms is about $2k additional. The whole license thing is because the previous owner never made the final payment so they never got a real license. They do not do annual licenses at PPM, this was an unusual case.

I did verify voltages, connections, and  IRQ's. I did some tracing on the PCB but gave up when I found a possible replacement for $200. If the 'new' one works, I will move on to the next big challenge.

Fingers still crossed that this is a good idea.

[rx8pilot]

Its amazing how many models of PnP machine have been made. I wonder what the production volume has been like for most of these?

It is truly nuts. We are surrounded by PCBs everywhere we go. They all traveled through a PnP somewhere.

[Corporate666]

They quoted me $28k as well for the machine and I just added up the cost of all the feeders. How many feeders would they throw in for the $28k?

When I talked to them about buying a machine a couple of years back, I think I had said I would need around 30 feeders and they said they would throw in whatever # I needed as part of the deal, I am positive I could have gotten a fair bit more.  I think PPM is starting to realize these machines aren't worth anywhere NEAR the prices they are asking for them.  At the end of the day, it's a 3600pph gantry PnP. There is an 8-head Philips Topaz on eBay for $12.5k asking (or best offer) - that is an 18,000CPH machine and Philips is a top brand that is still around.  There's a Juki 750 for $16k - an 11,000cph machine with feeders that I bet can be bought for $12k.   And a GSM Dual Beam for $19k that will do 20,000cph and I bet can be bought for $15k.   And when you get into the range PPM wants to charge for a windows machine with feeders, well there is a Philips Opal XII on Ebay for $48k that I bet could be bought for $40k.  That's a whole other class of machine - it will do micro BGA, 01005 parts at 15,000cph+.  So I think PPM's market for machines is probably shrinking real quick.  They have been in touch a few times to solicit me on the Windows upgrade.


As far as your machine - let me know you make out with the board.  Did you check your voltages on that card to be sure it's not getting fried by something upstream?

Its amazing how many models of PnP machine have been made. I wonder what the production volume has been like for most of these?

Even more amazing when you see all the ones that have come and gone!

I had two Dynapert machines - they used to be a huge company and just down the road from my shop.  I bought two giant chipshooters that did 18,000cph each.  Machines were huge and heavy.  I spent 2 years dicking with those machines and never did get them running right.  No parts, no service (company was out of business), rendered the machines useless

Had Celmacs 8700 machine (I think they are gone too?  Or maybe just in Japan).   I also had a Fuji IP3 (I think it was?).  When I called Fuji to ask a question, they asked what software I was running - when I told them, they told me there was no support, and practically hung up on me - wouldn't even talk about selling parts.

You will like your machine when it gets up and running.  I have a few of these machines so if you need me to check anything on mine for you, I can.

[Corporate666]

As I sit now, it looks like I will be able to make PCB's with about $2k in addition to what I originally paid - $7k total so far. If I can get them to soften up on the license ($1500) I would be pretty happy about that. All the other feeder parts and reel arms is about $2k additional. The whole license thing is because the previous owner never made the final payment so they never got a real license. They do not do annual licenses at PPM, this was an unusual case.

Who are you dealing with @ PPM?  Is it Sharon?  She's pretty cool - I think you should be able to do a bit better on the pricing, especially since it appears you walked into a problem that was not of your own making.

When you say "reel arms" - you mean the hanging brackets that support the reels on the side of the machine?  Did you get any with the machine?  It is just about the simplest thing I can imagine... if you have your CNC mill, you could crank a bunch of them out in no time out of 1/16" 6061 sheet double-sided taped to a piece of sacrificial stock.  If you didn't get any and want to try making some, I'd be happy to send one to you - I think I probably even have extras around somewhere (not sure but I can check).

[rx8pilot]

Who are you dealing with @ PPM?  Is it Sharon?  She's pretty cool - I think you should be able to do a bit better on the pricing, especially since it appears you walked into a problem that was not of your own making.

So far....Sharon, Tom, and Mike. All have been helpful, especially Mike. He has spent considerable effort talking me through the machine. I understand the electrical and PC systems much better. I am grateful that I started my career in computers and software. All my old school skills are becoming relevant for at least a moment. All the youngsters would be lost chasing a IRQ conflict on a non-plug-n-play ISA card. 

When you say "reel arms" - you mean the hanging brackets that support the reels on the side of the machine?  Did you get any with the machine?  It is just about the simplest thing I can imagine... if you have your CNC mill, you could crank a bunch of them out in no time out of 1/16" 6061 sheet double-sided taped to a piece of sacrificial stock.  If you didn't get any and want to try making some, I'd be happy to send one to you - I think I probably even have extras around somewhere (not sure but I can check).

Yes, those are the ones. I was thinking about doing that but I need to be careful that I don't spend a dollar to bend over a pick up a nickel. I may do better finding a waterjet company close by. That is an inexpensive process and I can send them a DXF file and be done. My guess is that they will be around $3-4 each instead of $20-30 each. That would save about $1,000 - hilarious.

[Kjelt]

The only troubleshooting I have done on the card is measured the resistance of the power rail - 170 ohms. Seems low, but not ridiculous. No obvious signs of damage. The PCB is littered with old school 74xx logic, a pair of small FIFO CMOS memory (guessing these are buffers), and some mystery chips with 16bit hex address labels

That is an easy and beauty to maintain this card. The "mystery chips" are probably Lattice Logic arrays (GAL/PAL) used for gluing the logic. You need to desolder the good ones once and read them in an eprom programmer (if not protected) store the contents and you can maintain this card for the next century if you can get the chips (not a big problem since they are standard series).
Nowadays these cards have one big blob on them, impossible to repair, so that is ofcourse a benefit of an old school P&P machine 

[rx8pilot]

Still working on the MVS922 (called the HS3L inside of the QUAD system). It is being discussed in a separate thread since I expected it to go on a tangent. I bought a used card that should be here in a few days and have a DigiKey order for most of the parts on the existing one. I have two out of three options in play so I am hopeful it will come alive and I will have a spare for the future.

In the meantime, I am reading the user manual. It is not very well written for someone that is not already familiar with the machine. It only covers programming, not the mechanics of the machine. I need to learn how the physical layout should be set up which is a little bit of guessing.

I did get the missing feeder parts called "reel arms" setup at a waterjet company down the street for $2.35 each. Plating and some plastic parts from McMaster Carr will have the cost up to about $4/ea. This is in contrast to the $20/ea for 8mm and $30/ea for 24mm for original parts. Total saved is about $1000 for 2 hours of effort. I feel like a lawyer for a moment.

I am also faking the rubber rollers that peel the cover tape off in the feeders. Another McMaster Carr solution will save about $900 or so. I would love to have the original parts and be done with it, but I am tight on cash and need to boot strap the operation a little longer.

@Corporate666 do you know anything about the IQ feeders. I believe I have the IQ feeders but not sure of the machine is setup to read them. From what I understand, they ID themselves wherever they are attached to the machine so you can program them offline and then the machine will know what it is and where it is located as soon as it is attached to the machine. Sounds cool, but not sure if I have that option.

[Corporate666]

@Corporate666 do you know anything about the IQ feeders. I believe I have the IQ feeders but not sure of the machine is setup to read them. From what I understand, they ID themselves wherever they are attached to the machine so you can program them offline and then the machine will know what it is and where it is located as soon as it is attached to the machine. Sounds cool, but not sure if I have that option.

My understanding on the IQ feeders is the same as yours... I think they were originally from the QSP2 machines and PPM adapted them to the 4C, but I may be incorrect on that.  Honestly, my previous 3 PnP's had parts management and I just shut it off, I found it a waste of time.  I can look at the reels and know what I have - and cheap passives like 0805 resistors, I buy 100,000 at a time and just buy another 100k when I am down to my last reel.  And more expensive stuff like SOIC MCU's and LED driver chips, I always know what my stock level is anyway.  Parts management is good if you are a contract assembly shop that keeps stuff reeled for customers, but for me it took more time than it saved.

I think the IQ feeders have blue LED's on them and the stock ones are red and green.  You can tell 12V feeders because they have 8 pogo pins sticking out the end and the 5V feeders have 3 pins.  If your feeders are IQ, I'd guess they would need something else in addition to the 5 pins on the end.  The rollers on mine are blue rubber, feels like neoprene.  I have some OEM feeders and some which were refurbed by PPM, and the 8mm ones all have blue rubber rollers.  12mm all have red rubber rollers.  What did you get @ McMaster to replace the rollers?  Let me know how it works out... I have some that could use refurbing. 

If your manual only covers programming, you are missing most of the manuals.  I have 2.. one starts off with setup (how to install feeders, programming feeders, teaching fiducials).  Then it goes into error codes and troubleshooting, then it goes into autoprogramming and such.  The back half of the manual is all the schematics and PCB layouts for all the boards in the machine.

Then I have another manual that goes into exhaustive detail on every little feature and option - both manuals are hundreds of pages long in a white 3-ring binder.

[rx8pilot]

If your manual only covers programming, you are missing most of the manuals.  I have 2.. one starts off with setup (how to install feeders, programming feeders, teaching fiducials).  Then it goes into error codes and troubleshooting, then it goes into autoprogramming and such.  The back half of the manual is all the schematics and PCB layouts for all the boards in the machine.

Then I have another manual that goes into exhaustive detail on every little feature and option - both manuals are hundreds of pages long in a white 3-ring binder.

When I picked the machine up, they pointed to a huge stack of paperwork so I thought there would be a ton of info. Turns out, 95% of it was proprietary manufacturing data that belonged to the customers of the assembly house that owned the machine. That is a good reason to have manufacturing in-house I guess.

DigiKey arrives tomorrow with components for the machine vision card and a 'new' card arrives on Saturday. I got the licensing worked out with PPM so I am all set with software. I have been cleaning and inspecting the feeders and no surprises so far. I do need to repair a cable harness that powers the feeder base but that is a quick job.

If the vision card works (just one of them), I should be able to start some test programming on Saturday. Today and tomorrow, I am having a guy help me get the PC backed up. Record all the BIOS settings and image the hard drive in case it craters. The last thing I want to do is a fresh install of XP so I will create multiple backups of a known good configuration.

Almost there.....

[rx8pilot]

Still struggling to get the vision system working. The 'new' used card arrived and I replaced most of the components on the original ISA card - nothing has changed.

I have, however, found other issues on the PC side that are troublesome. There was a PCI USB card in the computer that seemed to work ok the first time I saw the computer. After a few rounds of booting and connecting and disconnecting cables - that card had a problem. The PCI-PCI bridge was having a problem.....



This one....


I took the card out of the chassis, now the device no longer shows up on the list at all and the PC hangs on boot. It seems that it could be related to the PC being able to communicate with the IO bus. It the PCI is dead, I don't think the PCI to ISA bridge could work, rendering any ISA cards inoperable. I am not sure, but I think the ISA bus is controlled by the PCI bus through a bridge.

Also, strange problem with networking. When I plug an Ethernet cable in and it trys to connect - the whole PC freezes. For the moment, I will put this on hold until I can get the original drivers for the PC (Portwell http://www.portwell.com.tw/products/ROBO-8712EVG2A.html) and confirm all other settings and drivers from PPM. For now, I will spend some time inspecting the feeders.

[Corporate666]

On my DOS machine, the PC is only there to hold/edit data and to transmit it to the central controller of the PnP.  The PC just has an expansion card installed with a big fat centronix cable out the back which (on mine) goes into a serial port breakout board.  There are 2 serial cables going from that breakout board to the central controller, but during picking and placement, nothing is sent from the PC to the PnP machine, you can turn off the PC after you send the data.  And actually, you can even leave the PC off when you fire up the PnP, hit start, and it will continue placing boards with the last program that was loaded in.

In my machine, the lower left side of the cabinet (when facing the machine) contains the PC, and in the back is the air input and the transformer.  The lower right side front contains the main controller, vision cards, etc.  The rear is the servo drivers. 

So at least in my machine, there is not much in the way of connections between the PC and vision ISA card.  Is your vision card installed inside the PC itself? 

The PC shutting down or crashing with a card installed or not, and/or when trying to connect to the network isn't normal... if that was my PC I'd be starting with a fresh format and re-install of Windows, and expecting to have to replace the motherboard.

Let us know how you make out.