Finally have a pick and place on the way Quad IVC

[rx8pilot]

I believe my machine is essentially the same. Some of the IO has been muxed into a USB now, but the vision and control system seem to be the same. As far as I can tell,  the PC simply sends a program to the control subsystems on the machine.

I will fiddle a little more this evening. I have a few emails out to PPM and the manufacturer of the SBC hardware. Hopefully some actionable info will arrive today.

[rx8pilot]

I send an email to PPM asking for any notes on the configuration of the PC - IRQ's, drivers, settings, etc, to confirm that everything is the way it should be before I buy a $500 card from them. The email response from PPM (Precision Placement Machines) is only pseudo encouraging. They say that "I’m still sure that the HS3L is defective. You don’t need to worry about the IRQ’s, or a driver for that board."

Bullshit.

There are IRQ settings and drivers required. There are possible conflicts or other PC side issues that could keep the card from working. In fact there are more things to go wrong on the PC side than the controller card itself. The solution is to pay them first and then hope it works. All I wanted to do was confirm a handful of setting to make sure the troubleshooting was being done properly. I have already paid $1,500 for a license that they claim the previous owner never paid for. Now that I have the software licensed, I can see how buggy it is. When I ask about any updates, they respond with updates will cost extra. I tried to clarify, that I don't want an UPGRADE, I want an UPDATE to make the thing I just paid for usable. I feel like $1,500 should get me software that does not crash when I push the first button.

I am also trying to explain to them that I need to be able to estimate the costs involved to get the machine running before I start spending. It has all the makings of being a runaway expense magnet. Oh....$1,500 for a license...oh $500 for a board.....oh $1,500 for software that doesn't crash.....oh the feeders need new urethane rollers, springs, etc for $3,000. I don't mind spending the money to do the right thing, but I will not be happy if I feel like I am being suckered into a black hole. I fully expected some challenges and so far it is not too bad. The responses I am getting from PPM indicate that they have no idea what is going on and/or they are deliberately keeping me uninformed so they can get more money. I will give them the benefit of the the doubt for a little bit, but I need intelligent and honest answers. As a business owner, I can fully appreciate that they need to make a profit from the efforts.
Lets see......

UPDATE:
The latest email explained the crashes I am seeing are because the software is unable to communicate with the vision system. When that gets fixed, the software should be good. Maybe all is well after all.

[rx8pilot]

Ok, I put what effort I could in the repair/diagnosis of the vision controller but it did not help. It does not make sense to pile on hours of labor when the card is only $500. I will order the part from PPM tomorrow and they have promised to take it back if it does not work and/or help me fix whatever else is not right. They have spent a number of hours on the phone with me so far, so I should not complain.

This gets the total cost to around $7k so far. My initial feeling is that if the total cost to get it to make PCBs is under $9k, it is still s great deal. If this fixes the vision system, $2k is enough to get the feeders up to speed.
We shall know on Wednesday I guess.

[Corporate666]

If the software is crashing because it can't communicate with the vision card correctly, then I'm sorry but that is total piss-poor software design.

Hopefully the new vision card solves the problem.  You're running into the issue I mentioned previously - they want to charge Juki/Fuji level support and service costs for a PnP machine that has a fraction of the value of those machines.  It doesn't really make the Windows upgrade look like a good on my machines.

Anyway, fingers crossed... keep us posted.

[Kjelt]

Ok, I put what effort I could in the repair/diagnosis of the vision controller but it did not help.

Did you ask them what a new guaranteed fully working PC with software etc. installed would cost?
Or how much if you sent them your PC that they bring it operational again?

[rx8pilot]

If the software is crashing because it can't communicate with the vision card correctly, then I'm sorry but that is total piss-poor software design.

I don't know about that. If the vision system is unavailable, the machine is generally useless so why bother making the software tolerant of that?

Did you ask them what a new guaranteed fully working PC with software etc. installed would cost?
Or how much if you sent them your PC that they bring it operational again?

Not yet....but that could be next. Re-installing XP is not my idea of fun. Hopefully it does not come to that. The PC is VERY simple and there is only a single application installed on it.
Calling now to get the new card on the way. I am not confident that it will work, but I will be very happy if it does. The trouble shooting process has forced me to inspect most all other elements of the machine, so I have a pretty good handle on how it works.

[mikeselectricstuff]

If the software is crashing because it can't communicate with the vision card correctly, then I'm sorry but that is total piss-poor software design.

I don't know about that. If the vision system is unavailable, the machine is generally useless so why bother making the software tolerant of that?

Not ideal, but it would be nice to at least give a meaningful error message

[coppice]

If the software is crashing because it can't communicate with the vision card correctly, then I'm sorry but that is total piss-poor software design.

I don't know about that. If the vision system is unavailable, the machine is generally useless so why bother making the software tolerant of that?

You don't think diagnostics are important? If the software can't communicate properly there is no excuse for it not to detect that condition and give a reasonable report as to what went wrong.

[mikeselectricstuff]

If the software is crashing because it can't communicate with the vision card correctly, then I'm sorry but that is total piss-poor software design.

I don't know about that. If the vision system is unavailable, the machine is generally useless so why bother making the software tolerant of that?

You don't think diagnostics are important? If the software can't communicate properly there is no excuse for it not to detect that condition and give a reasonable report as to what went wrong.

Even if it's not practical to detect without crashing, which may be the case in some circumstances,  at least something like "Attempting to access video card" beforehand would give a good heads-up.

[rx8pilot]

You don't think diagnostics are important? If the software can't communicate properly there is no excuse for it not to detect that condition and give a reasonable report as to what went wrong.

It does clearly show the error during initialization in a message window. The error does not, however, stop you from trying to use the machine. I can jog the axis around and do a few other things. If I push a button that needs the vision resource, it will crash. Is that ideal? no. Is it typical in ultra-low volume specialized software that is relatively cheap? Yes. $1,500 for the software does not go very far towards covering regular monthly expenses. Not to mention, even a rough software package costs huge money and there are only a small number of Quads to be converted.

The more I see of the machine, the more the support costs make sense. I would love for it to be cheap or free of course. Once this machine is up and running, it will be critical that a stocking source of parts and service is only a phone call away even if I don't need them very often. Machines always seem to break just before the biggest job of the year and I will not have time to fiddle with it. If PPM goes away, this Quad machine will plummet in value just like the Panasonic machine my former partner got for "free". The Panasonic was totally unsupported and therefore FAR more expensive than this machine. The business end of this is delicate to be sure. I don't have the knowledge or experience, so I have to buy that from someone.

[Kjelt]

Another thought
Might be a good idea to clone the original hdd to a new one.
I hope it has a Sata drive not an Ide otherwise go shopping for some replacements.

[rx8pilot]

Another thought
Might be a good idea to clone the original hdd to a new one.
I hope it has a Sata drive not an Ide otherwise go shopping for some replacements.

Absolutely! It is an IDE bus so I can go with IDE to SATA adapter or better yet I found an IDE SSD. One of my friends is going to supervise that effort. The plan is to make a clone to the SSD and and make an image that can be backed up to our SAN. Someday, it will surely save the day. I am considering what spares I should keep on hand, but after speaking to PPM, they have pretty much every single part I would ever need on the shelf. They charge a premium, but it is less than me having to do it on my own. With my luck, I would have various spares on hand, but the thing I don't have is what will break.

If I push a button that needs the vision resource, it will crash. Is that ideal? no. Is it typical in ultra-low volume specialized software that is relatively cheap? Yes.

I disagree. It is almost always a sign that somebody didn't know what he was doing (or he didn't care). Crashing in such common scenarios is a big indication of poor quality software.

I don't yet have a well formed opinion because I have not used it, but I am ready for a few negative surprises from the software. I would say the chances of this being a super performing software package are rather low. All I need is to figure out the work-arounds and get a small number of programs up and running. For CNC, programming, I have spent $12k to $16k each on software licenses from two companies only to discover the software was rotten to the core. The solution, keep paying $2k per year for updates that don't fix the problems, but just add new features that I don't need but marketing needs to sell more licenses. This is on top of the CNC hardware, tools, SolidWorks, PC hardware, and more. For $1,500, I am not expecting much at all.

The options are to revert back to MS-DOS version, or write my own software for maybe $500k or so.

[miguelvp]

Accurate
Reliant
Robust
Modular
Performance

Pick just two.

They probably put more effort in being accurate and robust with all the pieces in place than anything else.

Since it needs the camera to operate properly I don't see a problem with the program crashing, I rather it do that than keep on working with all kinds of placement errors.

[rx8pilot]

Shes ALIVE!

The problem with the ISA vision card and the networking appear to be related. I re-seated the SBC and the RAM and it all came alive, no issues!

The ISA card 'repair' attempts were documented here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/finding-fault-in-early-90's-isa-pc-card/45/ Like I said in theat thread, I am so embarrassed I did not try that earlier in the process - I bet someone told me to do it along the way. Kinda scared to go back a re-read the posts.

Anyway....we move forward from here. Now I can actually program the machine and figure out how to make PCB's with it.

Super excited about this change in fortune.

[Kjelt]

Great 

[rx8pilot]

OK, now that the basics of the machine are looking good I can focus on the feeders.....

At first glance, the feeders and the various serviceable parts looks inexpensive. When I add it all up for 55 feeders, it's a few thousand dollars. I also learned that the joystick remote pendant is damaged. That is the hand held box used to jog the head around while programming. It could be considered a convenience item since the job can technically be done with out it. From what I have seen so far, it could be a pain in the butt without it. I took a look at it and it appears the handle fell off which allowed the springs to come out. Looked like an easy fix, I put it back together but the joystick module does not work - it remains electrically 'centered' regardless of position. DigiKey and a few others have it listed on the their sites but there is no stock. 2 month lead time.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/9SA50RE6500/679-1414-ND/1280480

No biggie, I call PPM to see if they have any and found that they do not sell the parts, only the whole hand held unit that is $1,800. Ouch. This is a budget operation and that repair is going to have to need a DIY solution of some sort. The joystick part seems to be ultrasonically welded plastic. Not sure if a hack is possible. For now I am looking for a newer version of the same thing that I can just drop in. I don't mind spending $200, just not $1,800.

For you viewing pleasure. I present the hand-held pendant that controls a PPM Quad IVC. For those familiar with these machines, it is only used on the modified Quads with the newer Windows configuration.



Now.....this is what you get for $1,800. I don't want to bitch too much because PPM needs to stay in business, but this is not what I expect from $1,800. A drilled project box and speaker wire zip cord? The Joystick itself is about $200, the rest of it amounts to a few dollars. Trust me, I understand what making small batch specialty electronics is all about - it is what I do. For $1,400 I sell a product with a CNC machined modular case, 7 multi-layer PCBs, graphic LCD and a bunch of Swiss made connectors and doing very well at it.


Hopefully I can find a compatible joystick, otherwise I will rig something up until Digi Key can get me a real one.

[Falcon69]

rx8pilot

Some folks over on CNCZone.com are using PS3, X-Box, etc. controllers to do the jogging and movement on some of their DIY CNC machines.  Might want to check it out. May be a cheap alternative to replacing that Joystick.  Just do a search on their site, and You'll see alot of mods for the joysticks.

[LabSpokane]

Wow. Crimp ends on lamp cord. That just oozes class.

As for the joystick, if that's just a pair of pots on a stick, you should be able source a short term replacement fairly easily.

[miguelvp]

If it helps here is the datasheet for the stick

http://datasheet.elcodis.com/pdf/19/31/193131/26.pdf

[rx8pilot]

The APEM joysticks appear to be rather good quality. In the end, it is just two pots but this model uses an inductive contact-less configuration that seems to be for longevity and predictable response. Its an active circuit. Digi-Key has the Hall Effect versions in stock but I am not sure how they are different. The original has a 'center' tap reference that I am guessing the PIC18F controller uses. The Hall Effect sticks only have the X/Y wiper outputs. I guess I could feed the center reference from a hand wired voltage divider and accomplish the same thing.

If I can use the Hall Effect versions I would be golden. Cheap and easy without making a big project out of it. The PCB runs from 5V so it would be compatible with these alternates.
http://www.apem.com/files/apem/brochures/Joysticks_2015/APEM-HF-Fingertip.pdf
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/HFX11S10/679-2262-ND/2063253

[rx8pilot]

Me thinks I have located the problem, but not sure there is a practical fix. Great learning opportunity though.

I took the stick apart which was easier than expected. The bottom of the stick is an inductor that moves around 4 fixed inductors. The mechanics are pretty slick and high-quality. The problem I see is the resistance of the movable inductor is 5M - rather high I would say. Under my microscope, it looks like the magnet wire may be broken, but in a place that I probably cannot get to without damaging something else.





UPDATE:
I figured what the heck, may as well try....
I removed the coil carefully by cutting it under the microscope. It looks like 1 million gauge wire, unbelievably delicate. Even under magnification it's small. After a few deep breaths I sacrificed one turn to get enough wire to make the connection. Did a quick check and we are down to about 35 ohms which seems about right. Put a tiny dab of glue to hold it in place while I test it out. If it works, I will glue it properly. Unless the circuitry is bad, it should be all good to go.

[Corporate666]

I think you said you bit the bullet and ordered the vision card from PPM which was coming Wednesday - then the issue turned out to be a bad connection.  So just curious - did you send the $500 one from PPM back, and did they take it without hassle?

I've fixed lots of little parts on industrial machinery by purchasing parts from eBay.  There's several APEM Joysticks on eBay right now, including one that's an inductive 2-axis model.  Not the exact same PN, but looks very similar.  There are also lots of other inductive joysticks on eBay for much less, like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Inductive-Joystick-Replacement-for-Everest-Jennings-Z60-Z51i-Z45-/141093173758?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20d9cef9fe

Just something to think about.

I'm sure most folks understand that companies have to make a profit, but IMO that's no reason to do stuff half-assed, like using freakin' lamp cord in an industrial housing.  That's just hack level crap.  A nicely made anodized/laser engraved CNC housing wouldn't be too expensive (especially compared to a custom silkscreen printed one like they are using now).  I think looking inside that enclosure sums up the overall approach to the Windows upgrade.

[Kjelt]

I'm sure most folks understand that companies have to make a profit, but IMO that's no reason to do stuff half-assed, like using freakin' lamp cord in an industrial housing.  That's just hack level crap. 

+1 I am a hobbieist and have 9 different colors cable in 0,75mm²,0,5mm² and 0,25mm² on a 100m and 250m rolls in stock. 

[rx8pilot]

Yes, the vision card is going back. I was not convinced that it was the card so I had the conversation about returns up front. No hassles at all from PPM. They have been quite pleasant through this effort. I will be trading the credit for various feeder related parts so they are still getting some biz out of it.

The joystick is confirmed working, rather happy about that . It took longer to post here about it than to actually do the fix itself. Confident it will be a lasting repair. No $1800. No $215 plus 8 week lead time. No substitute part that could be a project to work out. Done.

Now, all errors are cleared and the machine comes up just perfect. It appears the calibration is good as well, although I need to confirm that to be sure. I am running out of excuses fairly quickly - closer to making a PCB!

[rx8pilot]

As I dig through the feeders I am realizing how important it will be to splice the tapes since the leaders are needed to thread a feeder.

I looked at http://www.tapesplice.com/tapesplicerandtoolkit.htm but the starter kit is $600. Seems like it works well, but I was wondering if there is a less expensive way to get started. I have lots of high value parts in short strips that I have been using in my manual tape holders.

Anyone have any SMT tape splicing tips?