Author Topic: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread  (Read 135215 times)

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Offline FraserTopic starter

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2013, 07:26:53 pm »
Hiya Junktronix,

Would you be the same Junktronix who sells some lovely Laser equipment on e*ay ?

If so, your shop looks wonderful....full of temptation for me  :scared:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ssn=junktronix&_sop=15&rt=nc

I am tempted by the small Germanium lenses  :)

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Offline junktronix

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2013, 10:49:40 pm »
That would be me.  PM me your address and I'll send you a few of the germanium lenses to play with.


Hiya Junktronix,

Would you be the same Junktronix who sells some lovely Laser equipment on e*ay ?

If so, your shop looks wonderful....full of temptation for me  :scared:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ssn=junktronix&_sop=15&rt=nc

I am tempted by the small Germanium lenses  :)
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2013, 11:49:45 pm »
THANK YOU !

That is very kind and generous of you. PM sent.
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Online georges80

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2013, 02:10:31 am »
Aurora,
 if you plan on using one of those Ge lenses with the E4 and the diameter isn't 20mm (as per the ZnSe lenses), I'd be happy to modify the sketchup file and generate an STL so you can get a holder 3d printed for testing purposes.

Funny, I just looked at the Junktronix link you posted and the shipping location (per Ebay) is maybe 5-7 miles from where I live :)

cheers,
george.
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2013, 04:12:00 pm »
Hi Georges80,

Thank you for the kind offer.

The FL of 15mm for the germanium lenses makes them unsuitable for the close-up lens adapter. I will do some experimentation using them as a primary lens in one of my project thermal cameras and also investigate what they can offer the E4 owner. If I can use them with the E4 I my well need to take you up on your offer. In the mean time I have some scrap 3D prints created by UK-3D so I can experiment with those and some plasticard  :)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 11:40:29 pm by Aurora »
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Offline Scutarius

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2013, 06:19:49 pm »
Please add to the list

2 Oct
E4 1.0
6390 38XX
1.18.8
 

Offline Stuey

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2013, 09:12:40 pm »
Purchased from TEquipment.net (USA) on Dec 15th.

E4 1.0
6390 68XX
Calibration date Nov 13 '13
1.19.8
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 10:59:36 pm by Stuey »
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2013, 04:12:55 pm »
Why are these thermal cameras limited to 9 frames per second and why are higher frame rates export controlled ?

This matter has come up for discussion previously but I think all my input was deleted by me during my major self-deletion event.

Thermal camera technology has been controlled due to its military applications. It is a VERY effective tool to help kill people (believe me, I know). It can be very hard to hide your thermal 'footprint' in theatre and the military realised this.

Thermal camera technology was the preserve of the military, fire fighting services and industry. It was both extremely expensive technology and heavily controlled to prevent our enemies obtaining it and using it against our forces. Over time the technology has developed and become both more compact and available to the public. In order to allow public use the cameras used to be provided direct from the manufacturer to the customer after background security checks had been completed and a licence issued.

In more recent years the US Government decided that thermal cameras should be available to a wider marketplace but with Caveats. The caveats were that medium resolution, high frame rate cameras could only be sold to persons who had been subject to background checks and who were not considered a threat to NATO. What was permitted was the supply of medium resolution low frame rate thermal cameras to the public without background checks. Export controls still apply to such devices in terms of selling or supplying them to enemies of NATO.

The agreement on the international transportation and supply of devices that may form a part of a weapons system is INTERNATIONAL and part of the Wassenaar Arrangement. Europe complies with the contents of this agreement (Including Estonia !)

http://www.wassenaar.org/

http://www.wassenaar.org/controllists/index.html      Section 6 applies (6.3 onwards)

Note that required performance limiters are supposed to be non-removable in order to comply with the arrangement ! This would suggest that FLIR would have to hard code certain specs into the chipset as already suspected by Mike and others.

There has been discussion on why a 9fps camera is OK yet a 30fps or 60fps is not. I regret I cannot comment on this but needless to say it relates to weapon system capability. I am fully aware that it is possible to illegally or covertly obtain thermal camera technology. That is not a reason to make the higher capability technology freely available to all however. Why make like easy for your enemies ?

There was a recent auction in the UK for a 1280 x 1024 60fps weapons grade thermal camera. It was being sold by an official MoD disposal contractor and a mistake had been made. I advised the contractor of the status of the thermal camera as a prohibited item for public sale and it was immediately withdrawn. I am still amazed at the hostility vented on me for taking this action. Some people do not get the bigger picture and do not realise that some of us are duty bound to take action.

I think it only fair to advise that I am not impartial on the matter of making >9fps thermal cameras easily available to all. If you are in the security & weapons systems industry you understand the implications. If you are not in the security and weapons industry, it can be hard to accept but I am afraid that is just life.

There may be a case for relaxing the thermal camera restrictions but as many will know, changes in national security and military policy takes time and needs an adequate incentive, Such does not exist at this time.

In time the Chinese will develop better thermal camera cores....but remember China is NOT an enemy of NATO  ;)


Buying used E2V (EEV) Argus cameras ..... I know these cameras well  ;)

The ARGUS 1 is the first Generation ARGUS fire fighting camera, recognisable by its yellow case and round image. It is a pyro-electric vidicon based camera with relatively low line count (around 200 lines) and low sensitivity, meaning low range. It was perfect for the fire fighter however and easily sees through smoke. The ARGUS 1 is low performance compared to later technologies and is not ITAR liable. Technical information on these early Pyro-Vidicon based units is releasable to the public under an NDA.

The ARGUS 2 introduced the first BST FPA detector into the range. It is normally to be found in a black case with a standard 4:3 aspect ratio display. It uses a Raytheon BST thermal engine and IS a Raytheon NDA controlled device. The thermal engine is 320x240 30fps high performance unit. It is a very capable tool and performed well in the fire fighting services.  No technical details of the unit may be released to the public.

The ARGUS 3 is available in two versions....Blue case and Yellow case. They both use 320x240 30fps thermal engines. The yellow cased version uses a Raytheon thermal engine and IS an ITAR controlled device. I do not have details of the Blue cased units thermal engine. No technical details of the unit may be released to the public.

The ARGUS series continues to this day and now uses Micro-bolometers. They remain a controlled product due to their capabilities. No technical details of the unit may be released to the public.

I am aware that these cameras appear on auction sites....that is where I bought some of mine. Strictly speaking the sale of the units is not permitted but the sellers do not realise this. If you own one, it is not an illegal item to have. You just need to be aware that if you sell it, especially to an enemy of NATO, you could get into hot water with your own governments 'agencies'.

In truth, old ex fire brigade BST cameras are of little interest to the authorities these days. More modern Micro-bolometer high resolution, high frame rate thrmal cameras ARE of interest to them.

Also note that the ARGUS 3 is still supported by E2V. Faulty units often have dead thermal engines that make them uneconomic to repair. Be careful if buying one that is not shown working.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 05:59:16 pm by Aurora »
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Offline olsenn

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2013, 04:21:57 pm »
Military advisers have the personality of the Kool-Aid guy (Ohhh Yeahh!!!). They piss testosterone and just enjoy the sense of manliness that they get from saying they own technology that nobody else does. In regards to thermal cameras, a properly designed 9Hz thermal camera can adequately track a slow moving object (human) to within enough precision/accuracy to bring a heat-seeking missile within an effective blast radius. However, perhaps it would not take down somebody speeding on a motorbike or engage with another missile. It's all about probabilities.

For the record, even 9Hz low resolution thermal cameras can NOT be shipped to Iran or other select nations.
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2013, 01:49:07 am »
Ex series Temperature Measurement accuracy - IMPORTANT

'Stefbeer' has highlighted a very important element of the Ex series specifications, namely temperature measurement accuracy and CAVEATS

Look here:

Measurement
Object temperature range –20°C to +250°C (–4°F to +482°F)
Accuracy ±2°C (±3.6°F) or ±2% of reading, for ambient temperature
10°C to 35°C (+50°F to 95°F) and object temperature
above +0°C (+32°F)


From this you will see that the Ex series has NO accuracy specification applicable to targets that are below 0 Degrees Celsius (+32  Degrees F).  User testing has shown inaccuracy of several degrees on items at low temperatures and below 0C. Please consider this before trusting any temperature measurement with the Ex series on a target  below 0C as an error is likely.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 01:51:02 am by Aurora »
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Offline FraserTopic starter

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2014, 12:21:42 pm »
Enhancement of the Standard E4 by the User Community

This is a record of the enhancements that have been developed and deployed on the standard E4 thermal camera platform.

These are IMHO, NOT hacks and the E4 has not been hacked in the truest meaning of the word. Disabled functions have been enabled, and all without breaching any NDA's or releasing FLIR propriatary code into the public domain. The word 'Hack' is often used in such cases but I do not believe it to be a true represenatation of the activities of the membership of the 'E4 enhancement' team. They are not 'Black Hat Hackers'

It is true to say that FLIR would not have wished for their E4 to be enhanced in the manner that I will detail below, but this is just enhancement using the extant capabilities provided within the product, and public domain information (including FLIR passwords).

The E4 has effectively become a Windows CE development platform on which experienced users are extracting added functionality.

The latest version of the Enhanced E4, aka E4 Special Edition, offers the user more functionality than the top of the range E8. It is considered by many to be an E8 PLUS version as a result. The dormant capabilities within the platform have been awakened and significant value added for the user. The present version sits somewhere between the Ex series and Exx series in terms of capabilities.

I will update this Post to reflect the latest enhancements to the platform, as and when they occur.


Standard E4 Specifications

Resolution: 80x60 pixels using a 320x240 pixel Micro-bolometer and 4x4 pixel combining.
Frame rate: 9fps
Temperature Range: -20 C to +250 C
Accuracy: +-2% or +-2 C at temperatures between 0 C and 250 C
Lens FOV: 45 Degrees
Lens DOF: 0.5m to Infinity

Standard Menu functions:

Image Mode:
Thermal MSX
Thermal
Digital Camera (Visual)

Measurement:
No measurements
Centre Spot

Colour:
Iron
Raindow
Gray

Temperature Scale:
Auto
Lock
Unlock


Enhanced E4 Specifications (Enhancements in BLUE)

Resolution: 320x240 pixels using a 320x240 pixel Micro-bolometer.
Frame rate: 9fps
Temperature Range: -20 C to +250 C
Accuracy: +-2% or +-2 C at temperatures between 0 C and 250 C
Lens FOV: 45 Degrees
Lens DOF: 0.5m to Infinity

Enhanced E4 menu functions

Image Mode:
Thermal MSX
Thermal
PiP Large
PiP Small
Digital Camera (Visual)

Measurement:
No measurements
Centre Spot
Auto hot spot
Auto cold spot
Center+Hot+Cold
Delta hot spot-Spot
Delta hot spot-Temp

Colour:
Iron
Raindow
Gray
Blue below 'x' temp
Red above 'x' temp
Rainbow High Contrast
White=hot
Black=hot
Arctic
Lava
Detect Condensation
Detect Insulation deficiencies
Interval

Temperature Scale:
Auto
Lock
Manual (set upper temp, lower temp or shift both + or -)
Unlock

Zoom (electronic):
1x - 320x240 pixels
2x - 160x120 pixels upscaled to 320x240
4x -   80x60 pixels upscaled to 320x240
8x -   40x30 pixels upscaled to 320x240

Detail of how a standard E4 ,E5, E6 or E8 may be enhanced is to be found in this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-e4-thermal-imaging-camera-teardown/msg309194/#msg309194

The First post by Mike provides the relevant links to key posts within the huge thread.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 09:35:56 pm by Aurora »
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Offline pomonabill221

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2014, 08:25:11 pm »
I can understand why the frame rate of the camera is limited due to military/security/other restrictions... and support the limitation's reason completely.
BUT why 9 fps?  What is so magical about 9 fps vs. 10/5/20/etc. fps.?
How was this determined?

Just curious as to the strange number.
 

Offline Bovvy

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2014, 09:04:45 am »
Aurora, has the thermal sensitivity been improved in these upgrades?
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #63 on: January 04, 2014, 12:11:43 pm »
@Bovvy,

I regret I have no equipment to test the thermal sensitivity. There was a theory that the difference between the E4 and E8 was the 8C minimum span on the E4 and 4C on the E8. I am uncertain of this though as a thermal camera captures the full 'span' of temperatures within its capability and then 'windows' the span that is displayed to the users. If only a certain number of levels may be displayed on the camera, it may be true that adding the 4C span has effectively increased the thermal (temperature) resolution that may be displayed.

As I say, I have no way to test these theories and to be honest the E4 thermal resolution of 0.16C is still pretty good. It is as good as my PM570  :)


Update: I just re-read my post and think it important to clarify something.....

Thermal Sensitivity is the ability of a thermal camera system to see a change in temperature, much like CONTRAST in an optical image. Sensitivity directly effects the maximum detection range of a target by a thermal camera. The specification of the detector and lens block effect the sensitivity of the system. The thermal RESOLUTION is slightly different. Whilst a greater resolution will improve the ability to detect a target at a slightly greater distance if path loss is an issue, it is more about the ability of the camera to display CONTRAST between targets of differing temperatures. This is somewhat different to sensitivity. If you have a target that has a temperature gradient, you will potentially see more temperature gradient detail on a 0.06C resolution camera than a 0.16C camera.

This stuff can twist your mind a little but when you consider real world examples it makes more sense.

If it helps....some thermal camera manufacturers describe the span and centre temp settings as follows:

Centre temperature of span 'window' = BRIGHTNESS OF IMAGE
Temperature Span = CONTRAST

A camera that can resolve more contrast detail will potentially show more detail in an image that has thermal gradient present.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 01:01:25 pm by Aurora »
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Offline Psi

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #64 on: January 04, 2014, 12:27:34 pm »
I can understand why the frame rate of the camera is limited due to military/security/other restrictions... and support the limitation's reason completely.
BUT why 9 fps?  What is so magical about 9 fps vs. 10/5/20/etc. fps.?
How was this determined?

Just curious as to the strange number.

I guess they did the math on realtime missile tracking of moving targets and it showed tracking with 9fps as impossible.
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline Bovvy

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #65 on: January 04, 2014, 12:52:01 pm »
Thanks for the responses Aurora, I just wondered as I hadn't seen these figure mentioned. I will likely order an E4 from a UK source when I get back from the US. I shall report back when I have successfully applied the upgrade!

The urge to pay $995 instead of £995 has been tempered by my uncertainty about getting it out of the US along with my fear of being questioned by their authorities. It really irks me that despite the camera being manufactured in Europe, it costs less in the US, even before VAT.

Thanks to all and your hard work
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #66 on: January 04, 2014, 01:08:23 pm »
@Bovvy,

If I were in your position, I would buy the E4 in the USA from a Bona-Fide supplier. You WILL have support available from FLIR as their warranty is worldwide when purchased from an authorised dealer. The E4 is subject to ITAR in so far as taking it to a prohibited destination. If you are buying in the USA and personally carrying it to the United Kingdom, you ARE NOT breaching ITAR regulations. The UK is in NATO and an Allie of the USA. The E4 DOES NOT require an export licence. You need to provide the dealer with your name and address only. This forms a record of the sale to you in case of a need to track how it got to, say Iran  ;) Its a bit like buying a TV in the UK where the shop requires your details so that they can send them to the Agency managing the licence fee  >:(

You are totally legal so worry not. Your issue will be whether you declare the purchase on entry to the UK. I must recommend that you do as that is the UK law but I know many do not. Bear in mind that the E4 comes in a nice case but that makes it quite large....you can't hide it down your trousers  ;D  The E4 attracts around 3.5% Duty and 20% VAT on import to the UK.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 01:13:50 pm by Aurora »
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #67 on: January 04, 2014, 02:13:21 pm »
@Bovvy,

If I were in your position, I would buy the E4 in the USA from a Bona-Fide supplier. You WILL have support available from FLIR as their warranty is worldwide when purchased from an authorised dealer. The E4 is subject to ITAR in so far as taking it to a prohibited destination. If you are buying in the USA and personally carrying it to the United Kingdom, you ARE NOT breaching ITAR regulations. The UK is in NATO and an Allie of the USA. The E4 DOES NOT require an export licence. You need to provide the dealer with your name and address only. This forms a record of the sale to you in case of a need to track how it got to, say Iran  ;) Its a bit like buying a TV in the UK where the shop requires your details so that they can send them to the Agency managing the licence fee  >:(

You are totally legal so worry not. Your issue will be whether you declare the purchase on entry to the UK. I must recommend that you do as that is the UK law but I know many do not. Bear in mind that the E4 comes in a nice case but that makes it quite large....you can't hide it down your trousers  ;D  The E4 attracts around 3.5% Duty and 20% VAT on import to the UK.

Hope this helps.
Fairly unlikely you'd be stopped on the way out, but wouldn't hurt to have a printed copy of the appropriate classification & regs on you. Maybe also either ditch the outer box or put a label conveniently over the "product subject to export controls"
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Offline FraserTopic starter

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #68 on: January 04, 2014, 04:40:49 pm »
Another Ex Focus Tool

Another design of Ex series focus tool has appeared on Thingiverse (found by Bonocr)

It looks pretty neat but I have yet to get it printed so cannot comment on accuracy of fit.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:188896/#files

I attach pictures for those who wish to print it but I cannot upload the STL as it is too large. Go to the above url to download it.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 04:44:18 pm by Aurora »
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Offline pomonabill221

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #69 on: January 04, 2014, 10:48:59 pm »
I can understand why the frame rate of the camera is limited due to military/security/other restrictions... and support the limitation's reason completely.
BUT why 9 fps?  What is so magical about 9 fps vs. 10/5/20/etc. fps.?
How was this determined?

Just curious as to the strange number.

I guess they did the math on realtime missile tracking of moving targets and it showed tracking with 9fps as impossible.
HHmmm... that makes sense taking missile speed/distance into account and the distance traveled over time.... but one determining factor for speed over time is the distance from target as well..... looks like alot of thought went into the 9fps number and not, for instance, 10 fps.
Could be that 9fps is overkill and covers alot of different variables.
Just interesting to me how that number was determined.  Thanks!
 

Offline olsenn

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #70 on: January 04, 2014, 10:58:14 pm »
Quote
BUT why 9 fps?  What is so magical about 9 fps

The government just picked 10fps because 10 is a nice number. So they declared all unregistered thermal cameras must operate under 10fps... thus FLIR uses 9fps.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #71 on: January 04, 2014, 11:04:35 pm »
Pretty sure the regs actually say 9fps. And in addition to guided weapons, it may also be related to the framerate needed for it to be useful as a gun sight.
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Offline FraserTopic starter

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #72 on: January 04, 2014, 11:08:51 pm »
Ref 9fps...... It also relates to technical countermeasures but for obvious reasons I will say no more.
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Offline pomonabill221

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #73 on: January 04, 2014, 11:17:40 pm »
Ref 9fps...... It also relates to technical countermeasures but for obvious reasons I will say no more.
Thanks for you input and the detailed post in this thread... I do NOT expect you to divulge any more info that would get you in hot water... it isn't worth it!
I was just curious as to the 9 fps limit.
Thank You
 

Offline FraserTopic starter

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Re: FLIR E4 - The useful information thread
« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2014, 11:39:16 pm »
USA Free gift offer still valid - until March 2014

For forum members across the Pond from me...there is a long running offer from FLIR that you may be interested in. I tried to claim on it in November, but it is only valid for USA purchases from official FLIR agents.

Here is the offer:

http://www.flir.com/thermography/americas/us/view/?id=62227

Enjoy  :)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 11:48:31 pm by Aurora »
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