Hakko FR-810 - how loud is the pump?

[nanofrog]

I bought from Prime Distributing, as recommended in this thread. The items were shipped from either Quick or their US headquarters, "P.A.C. 1941 S. Vineyard Ave, Ontario, CA".

I have been communicating with Prime Distributing, but they drop shipped the item from whoever P.A.C. is (they are referred to as "the manufacturer" by Prime Distributing).

I am going to try to return this unit for refund and get the Hakko.

Quick does have a US office in Ontario, CA (2 people in an industrial park). I didn't know that PAC/Prime are actually related (presume parent & sub-company respectively), but it's not a big surprise in this day and age due to so many mergers and acquisitions. BTW, PAC = Production Automation Corporation. I didn't know PAC/Prime was just drop shipping.

If I had to guess, they must have gotten a bad batch and refuse to send them home for proper repair, and are just rotating them around as they're returned.  Not good at all. I did deal with Quick directly, and their customer service wasn't wonderful. But I chalked it up to the notable language & culture differences (did not have to return anything, just asking questions pre-purchase). 

FWIW, there's been a complaint on the FR-810 regarding it's UI. No huge surprise with Hakko IMHO given their irons, but I'm not aware of any issues otherwise. Just a lot more money. If you're really after an amazing unit, you'd want to give a JBC unit a go, but be prepared to spend nearly $2k for the large unit that comes with shields & tripod accessories.

The first one had an almost identical looking cut in almost the exact same place. There must be something they are doing during manufacturing to cause this. Perhaps they use some sort of tool to install the hose On the handpiece and this damages the hose.

Mine doesn't have this at all (just checked both ends of the hose to be sure).  Hence my thinking it's a bad batch (final assembly issues).

[dadler]

Thanks. I suspect it is just a bad batch as well. Other than the two issues I identified, this unit is actually a much better sample than the first. The hose was folded nicely in the bag/box and had no mega-compound twists/kinks in it. The hose expanded to full size immediately upon unpackaging. The buttons on the front panel also seemed to be more consistent/less-clunky.

For all the problems, Prime Distributing has been cordial and professional in their communications. I just wish the product was more consistent/better QA'd.

Prime has agreed to take the unit back for refund.

I have the Hakko FR-810 on order with Tequipment, so perhaps I can get this thread back on topic once and for all! 

[nanofrog]

I just wish the product was more consistent/better QA'd.

Quite understandable.

I'd not experienced this, nor has wraper or other owners generally speaking, and we've been very pleased with our units. Hopefully, Quick will get this sorted, and keep it that way, as these models have a lot to offer, especially regarding value.

For all the problems, Prime Distributing has been cordial and professional in their communications. Prime has agreed to take the unit back for refund.

Nice.  Good to know they're a solid company to deal with, so thanks for the info regarding PAC/Prime. 

I have the Hakko FR-810 on order with Tequipment, so perhaps I can get this thread back on topic once and for all! 

Looking forward to it. 

[LaurentR]

My Quick861DW did arrive with the hose tightly folded, but while the kinks are still visible (no crack or cuts though), it's perfectly functional.

As far as I am concerned, apart from the sheet metal, which is a bit meh (adjustment, gaps, paint that scuffs easily...), I really like my unit. Functionality and UI are great, internal construction is solid and the price is totally right.

I hope you enjoy the Hakko - at least once you've figured out the UI 

[D3f1ant]

My Hakko 810 has a nasty harmonic when air is set '2', but other than that little niggle it's a good unit. It has way more airflow than any other hot air tool I've used, so even with very large nozzles (for example 200 pin chips) it works well, something our old Hakko clone tool didn't cope well with at all.
You can change settings to allow the hand piece to keep running (and start it running) when still on the stand, ie disable auto sleep.
The UI is horrible, I keep a printout of the instructions (which are also horrible) nearby. I like the quick change nozzles too, pity they only make basic ones. The adapters back to old standard system aren't particularly cheap, but at least they have adapters (and it comes with one) so the collection of cheap ebay nozzles are still usable.
I probably take it appart one day and fix the harmonic or replace the blower.

[FrankE]

The Weller WRX is quite loud. Sorry I can't quantify that as I haven't got round to buying a sound meter. It doesn't bother me I just worry the neighbours might hear it as I'm a night owl

[dadler]

I received the Hakko FR-810 and used it to populate part of a board.

Overall I am happy with it. Build quality is great, UI doesn't bother me (seems intuitive enough, perhaps I am used to it, as the FX-951 is similar).

Its lowest air setting is still pretty strong and does blow components around, but compared to the Metcal it is much easier to work with. The pulsed nature of the Metcal diaphragm pump seems to knock components around more, even at seemingly lower air velocities than the Hakko.

I am usually not picky about cosmetics, but I have had a pretty rough run with these hot air stations. This Hakko came a bit knicked up on the front case, and the clear bezel in front of the display is scratched. Oh well! The hose and handpiece are immaculate.

And to answer the titular question: the pump is very quiet. Significantly quieter than the Metcal, and at a less annoying frequency. I am pleased.

I never did get to use the Quick, so I can't compare their function.

Fit and finish:

Hakko > Metcal >> Quick

Function:

Hakko > Metcal

[dadler]

So, an update:

I have *still* not been able to get my refund from Prime Distributing. They claim that the vendor won't get back to them, on whether they received the product back for refund. They received the shipment back on their premises two weeks ago according to the Fedex tracking number.

So, maybe it's best to avoid Quick AND their distributors. Prime Distributing has been cordial, but without a refund nor any ETA on one, I may be out the purchase price of this product.

Recommendation: Avoid 

Edit: I did eventually get a full refund from Prime Distributing. They were claiming my recent (but somehow not older) emails were going to their spam folder.

Recommendation: ehhh...

[wraper]

I never did get to use the Quick, so I can't compare their function.

Fit and finish:

Hakko > Metcal >> Quick

Function:

Hakko > Metcal

Sorry for bumping this necro tread but Louis Rossmann finally compared these 2 stations and... FR-810 sucked a big time in every category compared to quick. You gave away much better station over some cosmetic issues and paid more than twice for inferior one.

[nanofrog]

I knew the Hakko's UI was more difficult as well as the inability to stack units on top of it. But the performance gap is a real surprise to me. It's also louder than I expected.

Definitely hard to justify it at $850 IMHO. Nozzles start at ~$20 for simple round types, and the 12mm x 12mm BGA nozzle (N51-14) goes for just over $85.  Fortunately the B5058 adapter allows the user to use common Axxxx series/universal nozzles (type with a screw clamp).

[D3f1ant]

We own both these tools and his review isn't really fair in some respects. The maximum airflow of the hakko is possibly double the Quick, and at maximum (without a nozzle to provide a bit of back pressure) the Hakko's heater struggles to heat quickly. If he had set them both to comparable airflow and the same temperature the time taken to remove that chip have been about the same, simple physics. All that air the Hakko can deliver lets it do things you can't do the with the Quick. With large fine slit nozzles other tools doesn't make enough pressure for the nozzle to be effective. Cranking up the heat isn't always the appropriate or even possible if there is delicate parts around. We tend to run more air, and less heat.

Yes the Hakko FR-810 has THE WORST user interface of any piece of equipment I have ever owned. Actually all the blue and yellow Hakko gear have similar awful user interfaces, but the FR810 takes it to a whole new level of terrible. The Hakko can do multistep reflow profiles, so you can use it to properly replace a BGA and know you havn't damaged it with too much heat.

I don't know about Hakko's global pricing structure but, I picked it up for NZ$700 during a sale, about the same price as Quick 861 sells for here. Built quality of Hakko is definitely much better.

[wraper]

We own both these tools and his review isn't really fair in some respects. The maximum airflow of the hakko is possibly double the Quick, and at maximum (without a nozzle to provide a bit of back pressure) the Hakko's heater struggles to heat quickly. If he had set them both to comparable airflow and the same temperature the time taken to remove that chip have been about the same, simple physics.

FR-810 has 115l/min airflow spec, Quick 861DW 120l/min, I don't see how hakko can blow 2x more air. The only thing it produces more is noise. Also 230V FR-810 has higher heater power spec, than 110V version. If you need more airflow, there is Quick 861DE and 861DA with 200l/min and 1.3kW heater.

[wraper]

I don't know about Hakko's global pricing structure but, I picked it up for NZ$700 during a sale, about the same price as Quick 861 sells for here.

I googled and there is only one place in NZ which sells 861DW for NZ$689 (U$ 493), and this is ridiculously overpriced. But it can be ordered from China for $280 including delivery. Even if you pay GST, it is still much cheaper. I can find FR-810 only at one place as well and it costs NZ$1342.

Built quality of Hakko is definitely much better.

Materials used in Hakko are much crappier. By half of the video heater shell already heavily oxidized and became dark, My 7 years old 861DS is still shiny.

The Hakko can do multistep reflow profiles, so you can use it to properly replace a BGA and know you havn't damaged it with too much heat.

It does not have any PCB temperature sensor, so it cannot do correct profile unless you measure PCB temperature separately and manually change settings during reflow. Of course you "could" tune it for single component on particular PCB but it does not make sense IMO. With separate PCB temperature sensor Quick would make more sense, because you could at least switch temperature/airflow profile quickly according to PCB temperature readings you get.

[nanofrog]

Materials used in Hakko are much crappier. By half of the video heater shell already heavily oxidized and became dark, My 7 years old 861DS is still shiny.

FWIW, mine's not that old (3 yrs.?) but the stainless tube around the heating element has slightly changed color (similar to soldering iron tip retainers IME).

It's not drastic by any means, but it's not the same as it was when first pulled from its box (pristine).

It does not have any PCB temperature sensor, so it cannot do correct profile unless you measure PCB temperature separately and manually change settings during reflow. Of course you "could" tune it for single component on particular PCB but it does not make sense IMO. With separate PCB temperature sensor Quick would make more sense, because you could at least switch temperature/airflow profile quickly according to PCB temperature readings you get.

Good point. 

To do this properly, a temp. sensor would be needed. And in the case of the Quick 861 stations, a stop-watch of some sort as well (i.e. smart phone would certainly do the trick  ). It just means the meat-bag human would need to be present and paying attention to what's going on.   

[nanofrog]

FR-810 has 115l/min airflow spec, Quick 861DW 120l/min, I don't see how hakko can blow 2x more air. The only thing it produces more is noise. Also 230V FR-810 has higher heater power spec, than 110V version. If you need more airflow, there is Quick 861DE and 861DA with 200l/min and 1.3kW heater.

I wasn't aware of the variable power draw specs until I looked. 

I found the following on Hakko's site in regard to power draw:

• AC100V?700W
• AC110V?840W
• AC120V?820W
• AC220V?1,100W
• AC230V?1,200W
• AC240V?1,300W

FWIW, In find the power draw between 110VAC and 120VAC to be a tad strange (dips 20W for the latter), but whatever.  At least for the US/CAN market (110V version), the Quick has a 1kW power draw. 

[wraper]

FR-810 has 115l/min airflow spec, Quick 861DW 120l/min, I don't see how hakko can blow 2x more air. The only thing it produces more is noise. Also 230V FR-810 has higher heater power spec, than 110V version. If you need more airflow, there is Quick 861DE and 861DA with 200l/min and 1.3kW heater.

I wasn't aware of the variable power draw specs until I looked. 

I found the following on Hakko's site in regard to power draw:

...
FWIW, In find the power draw between 110VAC and 120VAC to be a tad strange (dips 20W for the latter), but whatever.  At least for the US/CAN market (110V version), the Quick has a 1kW power draw. 

You copied total power consumption. For heater:

AC100V?670W
AC110V?810W
AC120V?790W
AC220V?1,070W
AC230V?1,170W
AC240V?1,270W

And Hakko says 670W on the product page. So it's not certain if anything above 670W is average power it can deliver or just peak and it won't remain 100% on. As D3f1ant said it cannot reach max temp at max air in 230V version, I doubt that station has 1170W average. As quick 861DE with just 130W more power, 200l/m, and ridiculously huge squirrel cage fan (with SMPS to power it) has no issue doing this. If hakko airflow heavily depends on nozzles, it only means it uses inadequate fan with low static pressure.
[/list]

[wraper]

FWIW, mine's not that old (3 yrs.?) but the stainless tube around the heating element has slightly changed color (similar to soldering iron tip retainers IME).

Mine also tarnished a little bit, but it's mostly from flux fumes. If you wipe it with alcohol, it will look better.

[D3f1ant]

Sorry that built quality thing was wrong, typed on the phone  didn't proof read  Should read the Quick is better...need more coffee.
I think the original FR810 was considerably cheaper than 810B, which added the vacuum pickup thing. We got it in an E14 sale. Seem we should have got the Quick on ebay 

The airflow maybe a problem with our unit because its simply not comparable. Might have to take it apart, looking at the image posed above it looks like there is a slight kink in the join to the hose, maybe ours is kinked worse. Will post a picture when somebody gets around to taking a look.

The profiling of the Hakko is essentially a useless feature, because its so hard to do with that UI  Not having a temp sensor on the PCB isn't really a problem, production reflow ovens don't measure individual PCB temperature either, profiling is done with bare boards as part of setup. It would probably take hours to setup the hakko to follow a desired profile  I suppose it wouldn't make much sense to that unless you where dealing with a very delicate component or had way to much time on your hands.

[wraper]

production reflow ovens don't measure individual PCB temperature either, profiling is done with bare boards as part of setup. It would probably take hours to setup the hakko to follow a desired profile  I suppose it wouldn't make much sense to that unless you where dealing with a very delicate component or had way to much time on your hands.

Production reflow ovens use different profiles depending on PCB thermal mass. Also don't confuse reflow ovens with BGA rework stations which indeed use PCB temperature sensors, often multiple.

[KL27x]

Go figure. Another stupid review.

1. If you can't figure it out, RTFM before you review it
2. Use comparable settings. If air flow on one is different than the other, you're doing it wrong. More airflow doesn't mean more heat.
3. Nozzles? What the heck, the shape of the air flow could be totally different between the two. Hakko could be heating more of the surrounding board (and air) because the shape of air flow with no nozzle...

This was marginally more scientific and less biased/opinionated than the usual Rossman "review." If you've seen a Rossman equipment review, you know this is saying nothing. I give it 1/10. Ok, 2/10. The part where he demonstrates how much better the Quick's stand is and completely misses is pretty funny.

[djos]

I knew the Hakko's UI was more difficult as well as the inability to stack units on top of it. But the performance gap is a real surprise to me. It's also louder than I expected.

Definitely hard to justify it at $850 IMHO. Nozzles start at ~$20 for simple round types, and the 12mm x 12mm BGA nozzle (N51-14) goes for just over $85.  Fortunately the B5058 adapter allows the user to use common Axxxx series/universal nozzles (type with a screw clamp).

I really dont get the general love many EE's have for Hako - their UI's on their digitally controlled gear are atrocious and completely counter intuitive and their silly colour scheme/design makes them look like cheap toy's, not tools.

Personally I'd buy Weller or Metcal if I had the budget for top quality gear.

[KL27x]

Criticism of the review aside, I have no doubt the UI is awful* or that the unit is overpriced. And if there's any performance improvement (other than perhaps longevity), it probably doesn't matter to the average user IF the Hakko maintains tighter temperature control by a few degrees here or there.

It seems to me Hakko built their reputation on production soldering equipment like the 927/37 which probably eclipse all other stations in production quantity many times over when you include the clones. At this point what they have, besides reputation for tight quality control and name recognition, is credibility. A stable supply chain and the confidence that they will be around to sell replacement parts and honor warranties and the like. And huge corporate accounts for which the only person you need to convince is the guy in charge of purchasing. Schmooze his as much as you can get away with, and he don't care enough to do the actual work required to go somewhere else.

*I would guess there are 5 programmable presets on it, at least. It flashes "P-5" at one point. Perhaps this is more than adequate for most production uses. When you pay huge money to train new personnel and manage turnover, a setup like this vs "press button and do w/e you want" can make sense. Trying to manage a huge amount of labor can be quite challenging in keeping standards. Hakko probably knows a lot about this. Upfront cost of equipment like this is potentially small potatoes. It may be in use 16 hours a day, so figure the wages and whatnt of the guys wielding them. And that cost, in turn, could be peanuts vs what a 2 or 3% change in failure rate could cost the company for a given product. For every guy buying something like this to repair odd things, they probably sell many times over to a company which is doing huge batch production and it behooves a company to treat the lowest level workers like idiots who given a chance will screw something up, because they don't have access to failure percentages and profit margins. "Improvements" have to be verified before they are adopted, and if end users are making micro adjustments on their own whims, nothing will ever be verified.

[nanofrog]

I really dont get the general love many EE's have for Hako - their UI's on their digitally controlled gear are atrocious and completely counter intuitive and their silly colour scheme/design makes them look like cheap toy's, not tools.

Personally I'd buy Weller or Metcal if I had the budget for top quality gear.

Here in the US/CAN, I'd put it to cost/performance vs. other brands IMHO.

As you say, their latest digital UI's are horrible, but can be lived with on their irons. For example, the FX-951 can be had for $236.49 shipped before taking their 6% discount for EEVBlog members into account (brings it to $222.30).  Lot of features for that price.

I paid a lot more for my Weller WD1 gear to get these features, more than double actually, which requires an option to do so (Stop-n-Go stand to get the full setback features; timers only OTB). It does have a simple and intuitive UI though  (still have to RTFM to set up the features beyond temp & presets). To be fair though, I've 2x irons for it (WSP80 & WMP). Hakko's finally come out with a micro soldering iron (FM2032) that would bring it up to $385.55.

[helius]

FR-810 has 115l/min airflow spec, Quick 861DW 120l/min, I don't see how hakko can blow 2x more air. The only thing it produces more is noise.

What magic is this where less air flowing is louder than more air flowing? Remember, he is using a lavalier microphone clipped to his shirt, it only picks up sounds near to it (cardioid polar pattern). The sounds heard are coming from the handpieces, not the base stations.
Another point is that airflow can only be specified at some static pressure. Different pumps will have characteristic pressure/flow curves, not single performance figures.

*I would guess there are 5 programmable presets on it, at least. It flashes "P-5" at one point. Perhaps this is more than adequate for most production uses.

Well, that's not a bad guess. It does have 5 presets. I believe that P-5 is the factory default because the prior 4 presets can be chained. Each preset has a temperature, airflow, and timer setting and after the timer elapses it can (optionally) automatically advance to the next preset. This means a 5-stage profile without user intervention. The 810B also has a vacuum pickup (not mentioned at all in the Rossman review as far as I noticed) and this explains the cost of the nozzles.
You can read the manual here (he also has time to read one manual that's poorly translated, but refuses to look at the other one? Seriously.)

[wraper]

FR-810 has 115l/min airflow spec, Quick 861DW 120l/min, I don't see how hakko can blow 2x more air. The only thing it produces more is noise.

What magic is this where less air flowing is louder than more air flowing? Remember, he is using a lavalier microphone clipped to his shirt, it only picks up sounds near to it (cardioid polar pattern). The sounds heard are coming from the handpieces, not the base stations.

No magic, different fan construction produces different noise level. The way Quick squirrel cage fan is built (closed construction), only small amount of noise can escape, it is 13500 rpm BTW. If it was usual blower fan of similar size running at such RPM, it would be loud as jet engine. Hakko has blower fan with open blades.

Another point is that airflow can only be specified at some static pressure. Different pumps will have characteristic pressure/flow curves, not single performance figures.

You forgot that fan is used within the station and is pumping air through the hose. You are not buying standalone fan. It is not fan specification.

The 810B also has a vacuum pickup (not mentioned at all in the Rossman review as far as I noticed) and this explains the cost of the nozzles.

"What magic is this". Please elaborate how presence of vacuum function explains usual non vacuum capable nozzle cost? BTW those nozzles are the same as used for older non "B" FR-810 without any vacuum.