Hakko FR-810 - how loud is the pump?

[dadler]

Hi all-

I have a Metcal HCT-900, and it works ok but two things bother me about it:

1) the pump is loud
2) its "cooling mode" runs for a fixed 90 seconds, no matter how hot the heating element is. Even when you just plug it in for the first time, on comes the loud air pump. If you flip the unit on for one second, then turn it off, you get to enjoy 90 seconds of air pump.

This scared my wife and I- once in the early AM, we woke up to a pretty loud buzzing sound in our electronics/hobby room. It seems we had a very brief power outage, and this activated the "cool down" mode in the HCT-900  Now I leave it unplugged when not in use (and hence seldom use it).

Anyways, I am considering replacing the HCT-900 with a Hakko FR-810. It's hard to describe audible volume in text--but I am wondering if anyone is familiar with how loud the pump in the FR-810 is in practice.

For example, would you expect that I could use it, without waking a sleeping wife the next room over?

Also interested in the same question applied to the Quick 861dw. (Leaning heavily towards the Hakko, as it can be purchased from All-Spec or Tequipment. Can't seem to find a reputable supplier of the Quick 861dw/120V in the USA).

Thanks in advance.

[LaurentR]

The 861DW has the pump suspended on three nice grommets and is not too noisy, especially when running at appropriately low speed.
The on/off button is mechanical, so no surprise wake-up.
The cool down mode is triggered when you put back the handle on the vertical stand and it runs at full speed until temperature reaches 100C then shuts off.

I agree that finding a reputable dealer is a problem. You can always buy from Quick directly. They sell to individuals (in the US at least). I recently purchased mine from Prime Distributing, which was the lowest price (incl taxes and shipping) of the 2-3 dealers that carry the 861DW.

[dadler]

The 861DW has the pump suspended on three nice grommets and is not too noisy, especially when running at appropriately low speed.
The on/off button is mechanical, so no surprise wake-up.
The cool down mode is triggered when you put back the handle on the vertical stand and it runs at full speed until temperature reaches 100C then shuts off.

I agree that finding a reputable dealer is a problem. You can always buy from Quick directly. They sell to individuals (in the US at least). I recently purchased mine from Prime Distributing, which was the lowest price (incl taxes and shipping) of the 2-3 dealers that carry the 861DW.

Ah thanks for the data!

The Metcal pump is on 4 rubber grommets, but since it's diaphragm pump it's noisy. My understanding is that the Quick and Hakko are turbine pumps, which I'd hope would be quieter than the loud diaphragm pump.

I had located Prime Distributing earlier, but (1) had never heard of them and (2) they list the Quick 861DW as 220V:

http://www.primedistributing.com/Quick_Soldering_QUICK861DW_p/quick861dw.htm

I assume the unit you received from Prime Distributing is the 120V model?

[LaurentR]

I had located Prime Distributing earlier, but (1) had never heard of them and (2) they list the Quick 861DW as 220V:

http://www.primedistributing.com/Quick_Soldering_QUICK861DW_p/quick861dw.htm

I assume the unit you received from Prime Distributing is the 120V model?

Yes it is 120V. From what I understand, the 861DE is 220V.

[nanofrog]

My understanding is that the Quick and Hakko are turbine pumps, which I'd hope would be quieter than the loud diaphragm pump.

This is correct. 

Even with the air flow at full power (120l/m), it's not as loud as a diaphragm pump IME.

I had located Prime Distributing earlier, but (1) had never heard of them and (2) they list the Quick 861DW as 220V:

http://www.primedistributing.com/Quick_Soldering_QUICK861DW_p/quick861dw.htm

I assume the unit you received from Prime Distributing is the 120V model?

Prime Distributing and Production Automation Corp. are reputable companies. I got mine directly from Quick through a 3rd party online store they advertised through (no longer working with the site I used), and MCM has stopped carrying it as well.

Regarding input voltages, the last letter indicates the input voltage and wall plug. W is the US version (120V, NEMA 15-P); A is 220V w/ a UK plug, and S is the 220V w/ an EU plug version.

It's a professional quality station, that has quite a nice set of features. As LaurentR stated in a different thread, the UI is also quite good (very intuitive). Even the ergonomics are decent IMHO. So unless there's a very specific reason to buy the Hakko (i.e. validated tooling compliance, though I can't see this having made such lists yet), I'd recommend going for the Quick 861DW over the Hakko FR-810, whether for professional or personal use.

One niggle I have with mine, is it does cause my LED lighting to flicker when in use. It's solvable, but I just haven't gotten around to it yet  (not so bad the lighting is unusable, just a bit of a nuisance). FWIW, I've not seen this complaint from other owners, so I assume mine is an outlier.

[JGAN]

I used the FR-810 for a week and it is definitely very quiet because it uses is a turbine pump instead of a diaphragm like the Metcal. I think you could use it with a sleeping wife. However, I really did not like the user interface of the FR-810. It required a lot of button pushing to change temps and would not turn on while the handpiece was in the cradle, which I found very annoying. Not really worth the $700 IMO.

[wraper]

One niggle I have with mine, is it does cause my LED lighting to flicker when in use. It's solvable, but I just haven't gotten around to it yet 

Almost any hot air station or hot air preheater will do this if you electric wiring is weak enough that voltage can significantly sag during the heater power on. Especially true for 861 series stations because of the powerful 1-1.3kW heater (depending on the model).

[dadler]

Thanks for all the info on the Quick 861...

This is sort of off-topic from the thread, but does the Quick include nozzles? Or do they all have to be purchased separately like the Hakko? If any are included, what sizes are they?

Thanks in advance!

[nanofrog]

One niggle I have with mine, is it does cause my LED lighting to flicker when in use. It's solvable, but I just haven't gotten around to it yet 

Almost any hot air station or hot air preheater will do this if you electric wiring is weak enough that voltage can significantly sag during the heater power on. Especially true for 861 series stations because of the powerful 1-1.3kW heater (depending on the model).

I'll have to check, but it strikes me as noise rather than voltage sag given the behavior (fast, repetitive cycling that's always present when it's turned on; not the typical start-up current scenario of dip, then recover once the current draw reduces to nominal). It's also on a 20A circuit (wondering if the AC line filter is bad). 

Thanks for all the info on the Quick 861...

This is sort of off-topic from the thread, but does the Quick include nozzles? Or do they all have to be purchased separately like the Hakko? If any are included, what sizes are they?

Thanks in advance!

It includes 3 round nozzles, which have been sufficient for any task I've thrown at it thus far. 

If you do need specialty nozzles, they are available (N series rather than A, so no screw to mess with).  The N series are held in by friction (similar to Weller nozzles); removal tool is part of the stand (U shaped bit of metal that grabs the lip on the nozzle & pull). A heat pad would be handy for installing a different nozzle on the heating element when it's still hot (running or not), which isn't included, as they apparently expect the user to wait for the stainless steel tube/element assy. to cool down.

DIY'ing some shields out of heavy aluminum foil (i.e. disposable bake ware), or some other easy to form sheet metal (i.e. brass, copper, or thin steel sheet) can keep the heat right where you want it rather than heating surrounding parts if/when necessary. JBC makes them if you'd prefer ready-made (rather nice, stamped stainless I believe), but they're not cheap.

[wraper]

One niggle I have with mine, is it does cause my LED lighting to flicker when in use. It's solvable, but I just haven't gotten around to it yet 

Almost any hot air station or hot air preheater will do this if you electric wiring is weak enough that voltage can significantly sag during the heater power on. Especially true for 861 series stations because of the powerful 1-1.3kW heater (depending on the model).

I'll have to check, but it strikes me as noise rather than voltage sag given the behavior (fast, repetitive cycling that's always present when it's turned on; not the typical start-up current scenario of dip, then recover once the current draw reduces to nominal). It's also on a 20A circuit (wondering if the AC line filter is bad). 

861 station switches the heater very fast, up to a few times per second. Check the sun symbol on the LCD, it will completely correlate with the light blinking. The easiest way how to fight with it is getting the light bulbs which are not affected by the voltage sag. If your LED bulbs are of the crappy type with a capacitor dropper, they'll certainly will change their brightness very significantly.

[nanofrog]

861 station switches the heater very fast, up to a few times per second. Check the sun symbol on the LCD, it will completely correlate with the light blinking. The easiest way how to fight with it is getting the light bulbs which are not affected by the voltage sag. If your LED bulbs are of the crappy type with a capacitor dropper, they'll certainly will change their brightness very significantly.

I'll have to check that out. Thanks for the tip (knew it was fast, but had forgotten about the LCD symbol as I stare at what I'm BBQ'ing heating ). 

[dadler]

Well thanks for all of the advice. I ordered the Quick 861dw from Prime Distributing.

I'll report back on how loud the pump is vs. the Metcal HCT-900.

[dadler]

I received the Quick 861... Build quality on this thing is questionable.

The air hose doesn't have any inner support, so it is all contorted and doesn't want to unwrinkle itself. They really had the hose unnecessarily folded back on itself in the package... Looks super unprofessional.

It also came with a nice big gash in the hose, which has not ripped through yet, but likely will at some point in the near future. It's right by the handpiece, near the strain relief.

Should have probably gone with my first instinct on this one...

I can say, without a doubt, that the Metcal build quality is vastly superior.

I haven't tried turning it on yet, but I probably want them to swap this unit out first for one without a damaged air line.

I contacted Prime Distributing to see if I should go through them or the distributor for replacement.

In all honesty, given how cheap this thing feels, I doubt I will actually use it. I just don't enjoy using cheap feeling tools...

[nanofrog]

I received the Quick 861... Build quality on this thing is questionable.

The air hose doesn't have any inner support, so it is all contorted and doesn't want to unwrinkle itself. They really had the hose unnecessarily folded back on itself in the package... Looks super unprofessional.

It also came with a nice big gash in the hose, which has not ripped through yet, but likely will at some point in the near future. It's right by the handpiece, near the strain relief.

Should have probably gone with my first instinct on this one...

I can say, without a doubt, that the Metcal build quality is vastly superior.

I haven't tried turning it on yet, but I probably want them to swap this unit out first for one without a damaged air line.

I contacted Prime Distributing to see if I should go through them or the distributor for replacement.

In all honesty, given how cheap this thing feels, I doubt I will actually use it. I just don't enjoy using cheap feeling tools...

Sorry it's not gone smoothly.  Please post some photos.

Given the gash, you definitely need to return that particular unit. FWIW, the hose will have a kink immediately after removing it from the box, but it shouldn't impair usability and will come out in a couple of weeks or so (keep the hose rounded out enough so it doesn't cause a kink when the unit is off/stored to facilitate the alleviation of it). There's been one other person that had issues the hose on a less expensive 957D (issues with insufficient airflow for a given setting), and exchanged it. Second unit was fine.

As per inner hose support, I've not even seen that on Hakko (on any brand actually). Outer, Yes, on their earlier machines (wire coiled over the entire hose; older Pace units as well IIRC). Now, it's just the first ~3 - 5" or so that exits the enclosure and where it meets the hand piece, as it is on the Quick.

Also, please post some photos of the innards of the Metcal if possible.

[wraper]

I don't find it feeling cheap. For example, front panel is not plastic but cast metal alloy. The stand is cast metal too.

[dadler]

It's primarily the handpiece and hose that feel cheap compared to the Metcal. Also, the cord just directly attaches to the unit: no IEC connector. All of my other soldering stations have a replaceable cord. The buttons on the front panel feel cheap and plasticky when depressed (and the left most one clicks differently than the other two).

I'll admit all of this is a bit petty, so apologies for that. I think I just had higher expectations. If I can get a unit with a good hose, perhaps it will be OK.

The Metcal has an inner supporting spring coiled inside the hose, to prevent kinks and deformation. The hose wall is also much thicker. The handpiece doesn't feel plasticky (and the Metcal handpiece is considerably smaller) compared to the Quick.

After I discovered the sad shape of the hose, I searched and found the thread that you refer to (the other guy that had a unit with a bad hose). Mine hose certainly looks worse than his, I suspect that no length of time will ever fix the kinking in spots, as they compound-bend-twist-folded the hose to high hell.

I can't speak to the inner build quality of the Quick, I assume it looks similar to the pictures you posted. The Metcal is better built inside compared to those pictures, but it's also extremely simple. The Metcal has a cast aluminum enclosure, the (one-sided) PCB is nicely done, wiring is impeccable, the pump is very high quality etc. It's also super simple which is my primary complaint: has no screen or visual temperature feedback, the air control is literally a physical valve, and the simple circuitry uses that stupid 90 second timer.

I was positively surprised in the handpiece stand for the Quick: from the pictures, I thought it would be plastic but it is cast metal. It does have a cheap feel to it, but oh well, I like how the stand is separate.

[dadler]

I let it sit uncoiled overnight and a couple of the kinks got a bit better. The one mega-kink didn't really improve, and of course the cut in the hose didn't fix itself  I am going to hope the replacement is better!

Thanks for all the input and responses.

[wraper]

It's primarily the handpiece and hose that feel cheap compared to the Metcal. Also, the cord just directly attaches to the unit: no IEC connector.

For the US mains voltage, IEC connector does not seem to be possible while meeting the safety standards. IEC max current rating is 10A, heater power is 1000W, that means almost MAX rated current for this connector type. Considering that cold heater resistance is lower, this rating could be easily exceeded.

[dadler]

So it took a while, some back and forth, I was asked to supply photos, and then it took 2 days for Quick to make a "final decision" on whether I would be allowed to exchange my defective unit. Apparently exchanging a product with a defect is more controversial than I thought...

I still haven't used the unit, as I feel it unfair to use a product that I know I am returning... So I will have to report back on the pump noise comparison after I ship this back, they get it and check it, and they ship me another one...

I somehow think that if I bought the Hakko and needed a replacement, there wouldn't have been as much runaround ... Oh well.

[dadler]

Finally received the replacement Quick 861, and it is worse than the first.

This one has a deeper cut in the hose, and the handpiece is scratched up.

I advise people to AVOID this product. Poor quality control!

[blacksheeplogic]

Finally received the replacement Quick 861, and it is worse than the first.
This one has a deeper cut in the hose, and the handpiece is scratched up.

Can't they just send you a replacement hose? Sending it back for replacement again and the third might be even worse.

Also you could try a hose & coupling supplier, I've been able to get a small section of hose at minimal cost by paying for a piece even if was not quite the length (+/-) I needed. Maybe a lot less hassle than going back to Quick.

[nanofrog]

Finally received the replacement Quick 861, and it is worse than the first.

This one has a deeper cut in the hose, and the handpiece is scratched up.

I'd swear the replacement is a used unit.   

Where did you purchase from, and why are you dealing directly with Quick? 

[dadler]

I bought from Prime Distributing, as recommended in this thread. The items were shipped from either Quick or their US headquarters, "P.A.C. 1941 S. Vineyard Ave, Ontario, CA".

I have been communicating with Prime Distributing, but they drop shipped the item from whoever P.A.C. is (they are referred to as "the manufacturer" by Prime Distributing).

I am going to try to return this unit for refund and get the Hakko.

[wraper]

This one has a deeper cut in the hose.

That cut looks like it was melted by a soldering iron.

[dadler]

This one has a deeper cut in the hose.

That cut looks like it was melted by a soldering iron.

The first one had an almost identical looking cut in almost the exact same place. There must be something they are doing during manufacturing to cause this. Perhaps they use some sort of tool to install the hose On the handpiece and this damages the hose.