Hakko FX-888D 230v vs ERSA i-CON Nano

[wraper]

There are with flat bottom and solder wave. Page 40, 41.

Help?
How do you know which ones are TFO?

Then explain what is TFO? Google does not know what TFO is, I thought you were talking about tips with one flat surface.

[wraper]

I wish manufacturers would show the line where the chrome plating stops. Hakko doesn't do this, either, but they at least list "tinned face only" in the description at the bottom of the tip mechanical drawing, and they use suffix "F" for the part number.

Tips I mentioned match with such description. They have only one tinned/working surface. 0102ADLFxx and 0102WDLFxx. PLCC blade is tinned from both sides.

Do they have a TFO chisel or knife tip?

Why anyone would make chisel tinned on one side?

[frozenfrogz]

Although I can not answer the question about Ersa tips, here are my thoughts on TFO tips:

There are certain applications, where it is necessary to have a lot of control over the molten solder. With regular fully tinned tips you will have tin forming a blob around the whole tip (if you use a lot of tin) or it will move to whichever part of the tip gives the best volume to surface tension ratio.
Therefor horse shoe well type tips for drag soldering would ideally only have the flat "hoof side" tinned and the other surfaces to be repelling the tin. I could think of some scenarios where it would be nice to have the heat transfer capabilities of a chisel tip, but full control over the molten tin.

[sn4k3]

For better view of ERSA tips and specs please see this page: http://www.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-tips/soldering-tip-series-102.html
I don't know what is a TFO tip either, someone can explain?

[frozenfrogz]

TFO == tinned face only
Meaning: Only the working surface is tinned / holds soldering tin. All other surfaces repel the molten tin. The naming might be a Hakko thing though.

[KL27x]

Tips I mentioned match with such description. They have only one tinned/working surface.

Well, all bevel tip have one "working" surface, I suppose, if you call the flat part the working part. But most bevel tips have tinnable surface that extends some length up the side of the shaft. A Hakko CF/BCF has no exposed iron on the sides. The chrome plating comes all the way down to the meet the face. The tinnable surface is only the oval surface of the cut face, in a single plane.

Why anyone would make chisel tinned on one side?

Not on one side. I mean that the flat "chisel" faces are tinnable. But the rest of the tip is chrome plated. This is how hakko (at least in T12/15/18) knife tips are made, and this is one of the things which distinguishes it from their chisel tips, aside from the angles. In this case, I guess TFO might be short for tinned faceS only, lol.

I have looked at actual pictures of some of the Ersa bevel/spoon tips for sale on Amazon or whatnot. I found one spoon tip which appears to have very short bit of tinnable shaft... nearly TFO, perhaps, but it is hard to tell from a tiny pic. The rest of the bevel tips I saw were just normal bevels. I thought if Ersa made any, maybe there was a way to tell which is not obvious to me? To reiterate, even Hakko doesn't show where the chrome plating ends in their mechanical drawings. It's a pretty significant detail to leave to the imagination, IMO.

Seeing as how thin the chrome plating is, I wish more manufacturers would offer more tips with extended chrome platings. Using a fine grit stone file, one could create customized tinnable surfaces, quite easily. I have experimented with powdercoat, to cover parts of the tinnable iron surface, but that was a total fail. It would be a lot easier to remove bits of the chrome. I should like to buy and play with tips with even 100% chrome plating. Removing the chrome from a flat cut surface would take seconds, so why not try a single faced chisel, for a spell? I'm 100% sure this is how Hakko makes their CF and knife tips. Chrome it all, then finish grind the cut faces.

[nanofrog]

TFO == tinned face only
Meaning: Only the working surface is tinned / holds soldering tin. All other surfaces repel the molten tin. The naming might be a Hakko thing though.

FWIW, I've always known these types of tips as TFO (tinned face only).

I don't think all manufacturers offer them, but they're one of my absolute favorites (Weller LTCC & LTDD in my case).

[KL27x]

Ersa has more than its share of unique tips. I'm sure there are Ersa users who have tips they can't do without.

I didn't buy a Hakko for the tips shapes, because until that point I didn't really know anything about them. But once you find tips that do something special for you, you won't give them up for marginal differences on a spec sheet. You'll start to use multiple stations, if anything, lol.

If you have ever used nothing but a Radio Shack firestick for several years, you might have experience making and shaping your own tips. Anyone using solid copper tips can give this a try: instead of reshaping and sanding/shining up the entire tip, just file one tiny spot on the tip through the oxidized coating. Tada, you have a TFO tip. And it is very useful for point to point soldering. File a larger spot up to 3mm or so, and you have a tip that is excellent for drag soldering as well as batch SMD soldering.

[wraper]

you won't give them up for marginal differences on a spec sheet. You'll start to use multiple stations, if anything, lol.

Advantage of ersa i-tool in not just in spec. It's a much smaller tool size and much lower tip-to grip distance, especially compared to 888D, ergonomics, UI. Also construction of heater and tips make it perform as if those were cartridge tips. Hakko clone vs i-tool. Don't be fooled by it's size, it has 150W heating power.

[Rolo]

First solder job with the Hakko. Used the 0,8 mm chissel tip, 0,5 mm solder and a flux pen. Temp at 350C. Works great, the iron has stable temperature, good grip. A pleasure to work with.

[KL27x]

Advantage of ersa i-tool in not just in spec. It's a much smaller tool size and much lower tip-to grip distance, especially compared to 888D, ergonomics, UI. Also construction of heater and tips make it perform as if those were cartridge tips. Hakko clone vs i-tool. Don't be fooled by it's size, it has 150W heating power.

It's a much smaller tool size and much lower tip-to grip distance,

One potential drawback of this is reach. Certain tips have to be held at a specific angle for specific operations. I have found, for instance, that with T12 iron, I can not get the same amount of reach when drag soldering an IC, using the equivalent tip type. Holding the iron farther back is perfectly comfortable for me, and the T12 handle is slightly longer, even. But the angle of the tip is slightly different. Even though the mechanical drawing of the tips show they are supposedly the same bevel angle, the T12 tip is in fact slightly blunter, which I suppose is necessary if you want to use the tip when choked up at the shortest possible tip-grip distance. Probably many on the forums do prototyping and repair more than anything else. So I grant this is a minor quibble for most and concede in general, the shorter the tip to grip, the better, for most. Me, I want the iron and tips to be designed for the the reach I'm comfortable with, and the 888 is just about perfect. Any shorter is just short-changing me. Esp if you solder under a microscope, it makes a difference. With the 888 I have normal grip, which is slightly shorter than my max reach. And I can extend that out a bit when needed. With the 951 style grip, I find I usually hold it back at about the same distance, anyway, at least as far back as I can still grip the foam part of the grip. Varying grip too much ends up wasting time finding the tip under the microscope. That said, Ersa looks more ergonomic to me than the 951.

ergonomics,

ergonomics are subjective, to some degree. Also, clone handle is not the same ergos as an 888, IMO. The thin rubber overgrip is really not good.

construction of heater and tips make it perform as if those were cartridge tips

Yes, indeed. Ersa response/warm-up is great. I don't think you need to compare it to cartridge tips. There are some "theoretical" advantages of cartridge tips which don't seem to be that big a deal when you look at what Ersa can do. (I don't personally realize any advantage of T12 clone over 888, either, though, lol; this is just the reality of what kind of soldering I do to this point in my life).

it has 150W heating power

I'm sure this is useful if you're using it. But if you don't have specific need, the bigger number isn't helping you solder.
 
One big quirk for me is the retaining screw nut thing. It looks like it makes changing tips a pain, and this part eventually destroys itself. Or you buy one of these for every tip, adding another 5.00 and making organizing and selecting the right tip a big PITA due to this extra bulk on each tip. This is why I wondered, why don't Ersa user just ream out this part so it doesn't stick on the tip so tight.

But mostly, I think having and using the right tip is priority 1. I'll use multiple stations if I need to, to use the right tip for the job.

[wraper]

One potential drawback of this is reach. Certain tips have to be held at a specific angle for specific operations. I have found, for instance, that with T12 iron, I can not get the same amount of reach when drag soldering an IC, using the equivalent tip type. Holding the iron farther back is perfectly comfortable for me, and the T12 handle is slightly longer, even. But the angle of the tip is slightly different. Even though the mechanical drawing of the tips show they are supposedly the same bevel angle, the T12 tip is in fact slightly blunter, which is necessary if you want to use the tip at the shortest tip-grip distance. Probably many on the forums do prototyping and repair more than anything else. So I grant this is a minor quibble for most and concede this is probably a benefit for most.

If you look how thick is hot part of 888D is compared with i-tool, it becomes obvious it cannot access tight spaces which i-tool can access easily.

ergonomics are subjective, to some degree. Also, clone handle is not the same ergos as an 888, IMO. The thin rubber overgrip is really not good.

Picture was for size comparison only as it's the same size as genuine one. i-tool is miles ahead of 888D in comfortability to hold it for prolonged times. UI of 888D and FX-951 wins prize of the worst soldering station UI ever. And amount of people who accidentally screwed up calibration confirms this brilliantly.

The Ersa heater is not integrated with the tip. The Ersa sensor is not integrated with the tip. The Ersa construction and tip interface is almost identical to 936/888.

It's very different from 888. Ersa has thermocouple exposed directly on the and of the tip, less than one centimeter away from the end of the tip, and is tightly pressed against it. Also it's much tighter fit, there is virtually no gap between tip and heater.

One big quirk for me is the retaining screw nut thing. It looks like it makes changing tips a pain, and this part eventually destroys itself. Or you buy one of these for every tip, adding another 5.00 and making organizing and selecting the right tip a big PITA due to this extra bulk on each tip. This is why I wondered, why don't Ersa user just ream out this part so it doesn't stick on the tip so tight.

Tip holder costs around EUR 3, and I have individual tip holder for each of the tips. Even with replacing tip holder it is around the same effort as changing tip on 888D and is much easier if you have individual tip holder for each tip. Also this can be done while tip is still hoot.

[KL27x]

^sorry, I actually went back and amended my post about cartridge vs ersa. In fact, it just threw me off that you compare it to cartridge. To me, Ersa obviously works great at getting heat into the tip, quickly, and it stands on its own.

Reach:
I'm talking not reaching into tight spaces. I'm talking about spanning larger area of board, doing SMD assembly of a pcb. A little bit of reach can mean the difference in doing something in one go or having to break it up in two goes.

As for the retaining thing, I suppose you maybe use only a few different tips. I don't see how you are going to conveniently put 10-20 different tips on your bench at your fingertips with the big plastic doohickey on the back of each one. And I don't see the reason why you would even need to. Seems to me, you could just easily slide the tip out of the collar, like on an 888, if only the inside of the retaining collar wasn't so tight.

[wraper]

As for the retaining thing, I suppose you maybe use only a few different tips. I don't see how you are going to conveniently put 10-20 different tips on your bench at your fingertips with the big plastic doohickey on the back of each one.

I have more than 10 tips. Even with holders they are still very small. Much smaller than T12 cartridge.

[KL27x]

I have more than 10 tips. Even with holders they are still very small. Much smaller than T12 cartridge.

But do you just store them in a tray, loose? Or you do use a holder that stores them tip down, and you know them by color/position?

I agree the T12 tips are a bit of a pain. I don't have "first order" access to them, yet, and I don't think I want to give up the space for that. I mostly pull my T12 clone off the shelf when I want a second station where I might switch between two tips for a specific board assembly. The major advantage of it is that it's a tiny, self-contained holder/station with footprint similar to my 888 iron holder. But the tips, not so.

T18 tips are great because I can keep all my tips at hand in a tiny organizer. They go tip up, so I can see them. And each has a designated space. I imagine that's how I'd do it with Ersa tips, if I could ditch the collar-for-each thing. I don't see how saving a few seconds removing and replacing the collar is worth digging through a box to find the right tip.

[wraper]

You can store up to 6 of them on the stand. Although only 4 tip holder tubes come with stand, need additional 2 tubes to populate all available holes. I have I-CON 2 with 2 stands/irons on my desk. I'm thinking to 3d print separate tip holder as there were a few occasions I tripped the stand off my desk together with all of the tips.

[KL27x]

I'm very dense, I guess. I watched video of a guy showing why you need a collar for each tip. Because the collar is not easy to remove.

If you sacrificed 3.00 on one of your collars to sand out the inside of the hole, maybe you wouldn't need this much space to store your tips?

To look at it in reverse, this would be like taking the retaining tube and collar on an 888 and gluing it to the tip, and buying one for every tip. I don't see the advantage to that being big enough to overcome the bulk.

As usual I'm probably just overthinking things.

Having 4 tips avail on the stand is probably enough for most people. Like having the 6 tip silicone holder* might work for some peeps on the T12 stations. I would be playing round robin with that, and spending more time finding tips.

*Also the silicone holder for T12 is radially symmetrical, which means you don't have a set location for each tip. Which means more time looking at the potentially tiny tips or reading tiny labels. Organizer for things which looks almost exactly the same except or a tiny part at the tip should have a definite front and a back, lol.

[wraper]

It's useless to increase the hole size. It does not matter and there is no margin to do this, the only thing that prevents holder from falling off the tip is that it's bent tighter few mm lower than hole. Also it might be a little bit difficult to remove the tip only if holder is completely new, it becomes easier after tip is removed a few times. Anyway, even with new holder, for me it takes half a second to remove. If someone cannot do this easily, that means hands are growing from the ass. As I said, it's just less hassle and I can change tips while they are still hot.

[KL27x]

Wow, did you just make that pic? Thanks for the time, either way. I guess it's not that difficult, then.

Funny, I just search to find this vid. Some dude banging the tip against his bench to get the collar off. And he has another video of showing how you can repair the collar once it is all bent up, lol.

The funny part was the cover pic of the first two vids that show someone holding an Ersa iron, they are holding it halfway up the handle Which I take to show how short tip to grip thing is perhaps overrated for some of us.

Curiously, when I watch Big Clive videos, sometimes he holds the 936 iron way back at the end for seemingly no reason other than he prefers to.

This all proves beyond a doubt I watch too many soldering videos.

[wraper]

I just added arrow to the pic I found on google.

Funny, I just search to find this vid. Some dude banging the tip against his bench to get the collar off. And he has another video of showing how you can repair the collar once it is all bent up, lol.

All you need is holding tip in one hand, holder in another. Push tip inside a holder, give it a tiny bit of rotation if it is tight. 

[wraper]

There is one Russian saying: "Give a glass penis to the fool. He will both shatter the penis and cut his hands" 

[wraper]

The funny part was the cover pic of the first two vids that show someone holding an Ersa iron, they are holding it halfway up the handle Which I take to show how short tip to grip thing is perhaps overrated for some of us.

Maybe got used to work with bulky iron. Short tip to grip allows to do precision job much easier, especially if your hands are not very steady. For through hole parts with big pads and pin pitch not so important but very useful for SMT and tight through hole. Also much easier to work under microscope which I do in most cases.

[tooki]

+1 for ERSA and you can buy directly from ERSA-SHOP
Buy a tip holder for each tip as suggested

+1 on the Ersa (I have the nano, but kinda wish I'd bought the i-CON 1 instead, for the better user interface). Works magnificently.
+1 on getting individual collars for each tip. They're a f••king pain in the ass to separate from the tips. Getting one per tip makes tip swaps trivially easy.

Note that ersa-shop.com is not Ersa itself. It's Bräunlich GmbH, a reseller. That said, I've bought from them before and have no complaints. Just an FYI so you know it's not factory direct.

You can store up to 6 of them on the stand. Although only 4 tip holder tubes come with stand, need additional 2 tubes to populate all available holes. I have I-CON 2 with 2 stands/irons on my desk. I'm thinking to 3d print separate tip holder as there were a few occasions I tripped the stand off my desk together with all of the tips.

So I finally figured out why there are 6 holes in the rubber stand, but only 4 tubes: to make it work with other (unreleased) tools. Or rather, unreleased until very recently. They just came out with the 0109IN2-UKIT nitrogen accessory for the i-Tool and i-Tool nano, and it uses the front two holes to hold a metal holder for the N2-equipped iron. (In fact, according to Bräunlich, the only reason it doesn't work with the identically shaped i-Tool pico is because the pico stand can't hold it, and that the solution is to buy the "big" i-Tool stand.)

I just added arrow to the pic I found on google.

Funny, I just search to find this vid. Some dude banging the tip against his bench to get the collar off. And he has another video of showing how you can repair the collar once it is all bent up, lol.

All you need is holding tip in one hand, holder in another. Push tip inside a holder, give it a tiny bit of rotation if it is tight. 

I'm trying to figure out if you're being sarcastic or not. The tips are rather hard to get in and out of the collars, and impossible to do while hot.

[wraper]

I just added arrow to the pic I found on google.

Funny, I just search to find this vid. Some dude banging the tip against his bench to get the collar off. And he has another video of showing how you can repair the collar once it is all bent up, lol.

All you need is holding tip in one hand, holder in another. Push tip inside a holder, give it a tiny bit of rotation if it is tight. 

I'm trying to figure out if you're being sarcastic or not. The tips are rather hard to get in and out of the collars, and impossible to do while hot.

It's not difficult for me at all. And I already wrote that I have tip holder for each tip for convenience and to be able to change tips while hot. I thought to make a video showing how to remove them, but I'm too lazy to do this.

[KL27x]

I'm trying to figure out if you're being sarcastic or not. The tips are rather hard to get in and out of the collars, and impossible to do while hot.

I was wondering if heat expansion had something to do with it.

Having never touched an Ersa before, here's the vid I got my impression from:
https://youtu.be/4F57a-cO858?t=156
(He's got the weird accent and overenthusiasm to be the next Dave? lol)

It looks like there's some surface corrosion on the chrome plating of the tip. I suppose after some use at high temp, a close friction fit can seize up pretty bad, due to the surface corrosion?

I used a Velleman clone, which the tips were snug/friction fit with the heater, for many years. If you didn't change the tip for many months of use, it would threaten to seize to the heater. After freeing it with pliers, little bits of dark powder would fall out, which I suppose is from corrosion of the metal surfaces. IIRC, the instruction manual made some sort of mention of cleaning it, occasionally.