Hakko FX-951 or Thermaltronics TM-2000--Looking for opinions

[GreyWoolfe]

Within the next week or so, I will be treating myself to a new soldering station.  Within my budget, the Hakko FX-951 or the Thermaltronics TMT-2000 are my choices.  Pricing is about the same, $214 USD for the Hakko from TEquipment.net with The EEVBlog discount (could someone PM me with the code, please?) or $220 USD for the Thermaltronics from forum member Denbo32.  I am planning on getting probably 4 or 5 different tips and that is where my budget stops.  There are plenty of reviews on the Hakko and I do have a 936, so I like Hakko products.  The only comment on the Thermaltronics was here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/thermaltronics-solder-desolder-reviews-anyone/  Very favorable, but still 1 comment.  Has anyone tried it or know of someone who has?  I like the idea of the curie point technology.  Speaking of the curie point tech, for a hobbyist, is there really much of a difference between 470 KHz for the TMT-2000 and 13.6 MHz for the TMT-9000 and Metcal MX-500/5000?  The fast tip change is nice on both but I have read that in a production environment with constant tip swaps, the contacts in the handle of the Hakko can get burned.  Granted it was 1 review and I am not production, just a hobbyist.  Definitely a bit of a conundrum.  I tend to over analyze things and have trouble making decisions at times.  Some opinions would be helpful.

[Rasz]

if you buy hakko you can get a pack of 10 chinese clone T12 cartridges for like ~$25 free shipping, so price of one genuine one. Surprisingly there is no difference between the two (couldnt tell blindfolded, apart from burning my eye out because I wouldnt see anything around me)

[GreyWoolfe]

If I was to go with the Hakko, I would buy the OEM tips.  I am not going to put a VW Beetle engine in a Mercedes.   Seriously, I tried the clones in my Hakko 936.  Just didn't work as well as the original and I have original tips that are every bit of 6 years old.  I am more than happy to spend the extra for real tips.  It just amuses me that the Hakko line are the most copied/cloned of any soldering station.  The 936 was basically the entry level unit.  If you are going to clone something, clone the high end models.

[continuo]

if you buy hakko you can get a pack of 10 chinese clone T12 cartridges for like ~$25 free shipping, so price of one genuine one. Surprisingly there is no difference between the two (couldnt tell blindfolded, apart from burning my eye out because I wouldnt see anything around me)

Mmmm... Are the fake T12 cartridge tips really as good as the genuine Hakko ones?  Hard to believe... If so, I'm really tempted to get me one of the cheap Chinese fake FX-951 soldering stations from Banggood... Only 78 Euros... Would be a real bargain then, assuming that 75% of an irons performance is determined by the tip and its efficient coupling to the heating element... Where's the catch?   

[GreyWoolfe]

Where's the catch?  Well, the Chinese knockoff tips tend to looser than a $2 hooker and won't hug your heating element as tight as you want causing a performance issue.

[nanofrog]

Between the two, I'd recommend going with the Hakko (better for a hobbyist IMHO), as it will be cheaper on tips.

Anything that operates using Curie point requires a different tip if you need more than one temperature. So if you run into situations where you regularly run say 600F, 700F, and 800F, you need a different tip for each setting (potentially means spending 3x the cash for a given profile). This is excellent for production environments to keep operators from messing with the process (only give them what they need tip wise), but not a hobbyist or repair bench where you're doing different jobs all the time (one tip, multiple temp possibilities with it = cheaper).

And you already have experience with Hakko tips in terms of quality and longevity. 

The Hakko even has an additional iron available for it (smaller) should you need it.

Also, PM sent.   

BTW, would you consider other brands, and even used*?
Are you set on cartridge tips?

* Has all the parts needed to make it work.

[krish2487]

Thermaltronics anyday!!


I used to work with a hakko 937 before I invested in a thermaltronics.


The performance difference is huge!!
Having said that I have not used a 951 so I wouldnt know there.
I bought my thermaltronics from denbo32. one of the best investments so far.
I dont miss the different tips mindset. I am actually comfortable with the stock 2.5 mm tip that I bought along with it (gold band).
They are extremely responsive and rapid in heating up. soldering is a piece of cake now. The build quality is as good as what you get with metcal. I have had the station for about 6-7 months now and I dont want to go back to the traditional heated element irons now.The ability to dump power on demand is where curie point technology really shines. It is not so much as a feedback loop controlling the temperature as much as it is the physical construction of the tip. This makes it a very brilliant performer.


@Greywoolfe, you are right. It makes little difference whether it is 470KHz or 13.6 MHz. The 13.6 version would be a marginally better performer. The 470 KHz beats the pants off with any traditional irons though!!


I have been meaning to do a review and teardown of the unit. Will do that sometime this week.

[GreyWoolfe]

Between the two, I'd recommend going with the Hakko (better for a hobbyist IMHO), as it will be cheaper on tips.

Anything that operates using Curie point requires a different tip if you need more than one temperature. So if you run into situations where you regularly run say 600F, 700F, and 800F, you need a different tip for each setting (potentially means spending 3x the cash for a given profile). This is excellent for production environments to keep operators from messing with the process (only give them what they need tip wise), but not a hobbyist or repair bench where you're doing different jobs all the time (one tip, multiple temp possibilities with it = cheaper).

And you already have experience with Hakko tips in terms of quality and longevity. 

The Hakko even has an additional iron available for it (smaller) should you need it.

Also, PM sent.   

BTW, would you consider other brands, and even used*?
Are you set on cartridge tips?

* Has all the parts needed to make it work.

Here's the thing about temperatures, I almost never adjust the temp, I stay at 700F almost all the time.  There has only been a couple of times where I needed extra heat because of what I was soldering.  I think that the induction heating on demand will cover the rare times I need more.  Actually, the price of the tips are very compatible, almost the same.  As far as other brands, I haven't thought much on that and as far as used, it will depend on the unit.  Almost all of my test gear is used, but I am leaning towards new for the soldering Iron.  I don't want a used higher end unit that was in a production environment and may not have been taken care of as it should have been.  What other brands/models did you have in mind.  I try to keep an open mind and weigh options.

I dont miss the different tips mindset. I am actually comfortable with the stock 2.5 mm tip that I bought along with it (gold band).

I am all about the right tip for the task at hand.  I have 5 different tips for the 936 and I do use them all.  I will get a selection with either iron and have already decided on which tips I want.  You were the one comment on the Thermaltronics that I was talking about.  I appreciate the feedback so far.

[krish2487]

@greywoolfe

Thermaltronics are very, very underrated.
You are welcome. (I am not affiliated with denbo or thermaltronics anyway, just an extremely satisfied customer) 


I bought a chisel tip 2.5mm. It has worked well with all the boards I worked on so far, including ones with heavy power planes and copper pours. The first time I used this iron + tip combo on a copper pour I was blown away at its ability to dump heat.. Having said that I bought the 2.5mm tip as a general purpose use. I will be purchasing additional tips as and when needed.


IIRC, there are a couple of videos on youtube where he shows someone soldering and desoldering SMA connectors and cables using a TMT 9000 onto a tinned copper sheet.

[Rasz]

If I was to go with the Hakko, I would buy the OEM tips.  I am not going to put a VW Beetle engine in a Mercedes.   Seriously, I tried the clones in my Hakko 936

936 is different fairytale, random shoe fixing shop in china can stamp out counterfeit 936 tips from a piece of pipe or something
T12 are cartridges with integrated heater, like JBC. Clones might use up faster (1 year versus 3 for heavy use?), but other than that they are as good as brand ones. 70W solves any power problems by brute force alone.

Mmmm... Are the fake T12 cartridge tips really as good as the genuine Hakko ones?  Hard to believe... If so, I'm really tempted to get me one of the cheap Chinese fake FX-951 soldering stations from Banggood... Only 78 Euros... Would be a real bargain then, assuming that 75% of an irons performance is determined by the tip and its efficient coupling to the heating element... Where's the catch?   

noooooo, stay away from that crap. Plastics and controller are all total shit.

[nanofrog]

Here's the thing about temperatures, I almost never adjust the temp, I stay at 700F almost all the time.  There has only been a couple of times where I needed extra heat because of what I was soldering.  I think that the induction heating on demand will cover the rare times I need more.  Actually, the price of the tips are very compatible, almost the same.  As far as other brands, I haven't thought much on that and as far as used, it will depend on the unit.  Almost all of my test gear is used, but I am leaning towards new for the soldering Iron.  I don't want a used higher end unit that was in a production environment and may not have been taken care of as it should have been.  What other brands/models did you have in mind.  I try to keep an open mind and weigh options.

I don't switch temperatures all that often either, but it's nice to have in the instances you need it. And without any additional cost.  Particularly useful if you find yourself working with something that's thermally sensitive enough you need to use Sn42/Bi57/Ag1 low melt point solder (138C/281F), as a temp controlled station will allow you to work at lower temperatures than is possible on RF heated Curie point stations.

Also understand, that the extra capacity/power poured into a joint capability associated with induction units, isn't exclusive to them at all. There are temperature controlled stations that can pump in the heat just as well or even faster (depends on the designs/stations being compared). For example, I'd stack a JBC against a Metcal or Thermaltronics running at 13.56Mhz. Weller makes some fast responding stations as well, and the Hakko FX-951 you're looking at is no slouch either (any of these will blow the doors off of your 936).

Demos on youtube are available ^. Generally speaking, you'd want to take them out for a test drive (typically a 30 day trial), and see for yourself.  Given the sources you're looking at however, I'll presume this isn't possible.

I get wanting new, but there's a gap between the $100 and $300 mark (not much there, save the FX-951). To get absolute top end performance, you'll need to look at ~$350 mark -minimum- if you insist on new. You can approximately half that number buying used if you're patient. If you do look at used, examine the photos closely. If it looks like it's been to hell and back, skip it. Which puts you within your budget, and gives you options beyond the two stations you're currently looking at (more gasoline on the fire  ). 

[GreyWoolfe]

I agree on that gap between $100-$300.  There is really only a few choices, the 2 in this thread and the Oki-Metcal PS-900 at about $259.  I am pretty hard capped at $300 including tips.  I regularly check local Craigslist and I am always looking up Metcal and to a lesser extent, JBC on eBay.  I rarely see complete used JBC stations on eBay at all but that, I'm sure, has to do with the frequency that I look.  If I am going to look at Weller, I will stick with Hakko.  The Metcals that I see in my price range look like they have been rode hard and put away wet.  Most of them aren't even complete.  Right now I see a Metcal RFG-30 for $245 that is missing only the heat resistant pad.  For that price, I can get the 951, TMT-2000 or the PS-900 new with 1 year warranty.  I would love absolute top end performance but I am not getting that on a beer budget.  I am probably going to get the FX-951 and a nice assortment of tips.  A big part of the upgrade for me are quick quick tip changes and getting my hand closer to the tip for better control, which any one of the above mentioned units will do.  My hands are still steady but I want any advantage I can give myself.  By the way, I still plan to keep my 936 as a second iron no matter what I buy.  My tips are still in good shape and someone gave me a second power supply that all it needed was a calibration and power LED mod.  I got one of the Hakko clone units and it is close enough for my use.

[nanofrog]

I agree on that gap between $100-$300.  There is really only a few choices, the 2 in this thread and the Oki-Metcal PS-900 at about $259.  I am pretty hard capped at $300 including tips.  I regularly check local Craigslist and I am always looking up Metcal and to a lesser extent, JBC on eBay.  I rarely see complete used JBC stations on eBay at all but that, I'm sure, has to do with the frequency that I look.  If I am going to look at Weller, I will stick with Hakko.  The Metcals that I see in my price range look like they have been rode hard and put away wet.  Most of them aren't even complete.  Right now I see a Metcal RFG-30 for $245 that is missing only the heat resistant pad.  For that price, I can get the 951, TMT-2000 or the PS-900 new with 1 year warranty.  I would love absolute top end performance but I am not getting that on a beer budget.  I am probably going to get the FX-951 and a nice assortment of tips.  A big part of the upgrade for me are quick quick tip changes and getting my hand closer to the tip for better control, which any one of the above mentioned units will do.  My hands are still steady but I want any advantage I can give myself.  By the way, I still plan to keep my 936 as a second iron no matter what I buy.  My tips are still in good shape and someone gave me a second power supply that all it needed was a calibration and power LED mod.  I got one of the Hakko clone units and it is close enough for my use.

Sending PM.

[kenfoland]

Let me start by saying I've never owned a Hakko; they look like they are high quality. But, I do own a Thermaltronics TMT-2000-K. This thing is amazing! It's rated at 50 watts. I've seen and owned many other soldering stations that were rated as more powerful. But, none were nearly as effective. I don't care what PCB I come across I know it will handle it. With the SHP-K handpiece and K-series tips it is unstoppable; huge groundplane or not. You can place the tip on a wet sponge and while still on the sponge apply solder; it will melt it as it always does. Thermal capacity is far greater than any other iron I have used. With the exception of my 35+ years old Weller 8200N (and still works like new), I have given all of my other irons and stations to friends who were in need. And, I don't miss any of them! I first thought that the absence of heat control would be an issue, but it isn't for me.

[Someone]

I agree on that gap between $100-$300.  There is really only a few choices, the 2 in this thread and the Oki-Metcal PS-900 at about $259.  I am pretty hard capped at $300 including tips.  I regularly check local Craigslist and I am always looking up Metcal and to a lesser extent, JBC on eBay.  I rarely see complete used JBC stations on eBay at all but that, I'm sure, has to do with the frequency that I look.  If I am going to look at Weller, I will stick with Hakko.  The Metcals that I see in my price range look like they have been rode hard and put away wet.  Most of them aren't even complete.  Right now I see a Metcal RFG-30 for $245 that is missing only the heat resistant pad.  For that price, I can get the 951, TMT-2000 or the PS-900 new with 1 year warranty.  I would love absolute top end performance but I am not getting that on a beer budget.  I am probably going to get the FX-951 and a nice assortment of tips.  A big part of the upgrade for me are quick quick tip changes and getting my hand closer to the tip for better control, which any one of the above mentioned units will do.  My hands are still steady but I want any advantage I can give myself.  By the way, I still plan to keep my 936 as a second iron no matter what I buy.  My tips are still in good shape and someone gave me a second power supply that all it needed was a calibration and power LED mod.  I got one of the Hakko clone units and it is close enough for my use.

Personally I would avoid the TMT-2000 as the other two choices are much better built and finished. The PS-900 has a deceptively long reach from the fingers to the tip of 70mm, but I cant recall how that compares to the Hakko. Which did you end up with? How's it going for you?

[mrpackethead]

I have a FX-951 on my workbench as my every day iron, its been going for 5 years at least i gets used nearly every day.. I've got about 10 differnet tips for differnet jobs.. Always used the real hakko tips.. 

I liked it enough that i put 2 more in our workshop

[GreyWoolfe]

To update, I did buy the Hakko FX-951 and 6 tips from TEquipment.net.  I love the iron.  Worlds difference from the 936.  A month or so after I bought it, I was able to barter some NOS components into a Metcal MX-500P II and Talon tweezers with stand at my local surplus store.  I found a good deal on a NOS RM3E wand and base and found some good deals on tips.  It is nice to have 2 truly awesome soldering irons.  I would absolutely recommend the FX-951 to anyone.  I bought it, 6 tips and tip holders and a replacement brass curls for under $290 with the EEVBlog discount.  I am all in with 5 tips on the Metcal for about $190.  I would recommend the Metcal also but without patience and some stuff to trade it would be very hard to get the setup I have for what I paid.  I also sold my 936 to a member of my ham radio club and she is very happy with it.  Just as a tease, Nanofrog and I are planning a real world comparison of my Hakko, Metcal and his JBC.  We have worked out some different tests to compare things like thermal recovery, heat transfer and ease of use and comfort, which is important for me with my arthritic hands.  We have accumulated lots of identical bits and bobs and just have to fine tune what we are going to do  Not sure if it will happen this year as the holidays are approaching and free time is starting to come up a little short.

[Rasz]

if you are totally broke, but still want quality iron like FX-951 I recommend getting this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-Kits-for-HAKKO-T12-Handle-/171740295563

plus original tips, or even chinese $7 clones, personally I like j02 and bcm2

secret sauce is in the construction of the cartridges (thermocouple inside right at the tip), chinese clones heat up and hold temperature just as fast as originals, might be les durable in the long run, but mine are still going strong
you can but 10, albeit not the greatest shapes (none of my fav in the set, still bc2 and d08/24 are fine), for the price of one original
http://www.banggood.com/T12-Series-Solder-Iron-Tips-for-Hakko-Soldering-Station-FX-951-FX-952-p-932701.html

$40 + laptop power supply for great soldering experience if you dont mind DIY

[nanofrog]

Just as a tease, Nanofrog and I are planning a real world comparison of my Hakko, Metcal and his JBC Weller.

Slight correction; mine's a Weller WD1 w/ 2 irons (WSP80 + WMP).

FWIW, I also have a Stop-n-Go stand that connects to the station to fully use the setback features.

Not sure if it will happen this year as the holidays are approaching and free time is starting to come up a little short.

Next year is far more feasible.

BTW, please let me know what tips you have on hand now.