HDMI Microscope vs Stereo Optical Microscope? for faut finding and solder rework

[dicky96]

Hi guys I hope tis is the right section of the forum

I do lot of soldering and fault finding using an illumunated bench magnifier something like this one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Xytronic-JF-22CB-Illuminated-3x-Diopter-Bench-Clamp-Magnifying-Lamp-120mm-Lens-/131812734851?hash=item1eb0a6b783:g:oQQAAOSw1KxXNZBQ  with a 22W flourescent tube - and it has done me great service for many years

However now I am finding I am being asked to look at things like IPTV set top boxes, tablet PCs, phones etc and find it isn't up to working on something that miniaturised. 

So having done a little looking around on 'net I have come to the idea I should try either a HDMI microscope or a stereoscopic optical microscope

I've seen videos on youtube of the Adonstar http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Andonstar-HDMI-digital-inspection-microscope-PCB-repair-10x-300x-SMT-SMD-Camera-/282316826894?hash=item41bb64e90e:g:liMAAOSwdGFYtUgN  and watched quite an interesting video of one mounted upside down pver a soldering station which seems a very good way to use it.  It sounds like this has a suitable distance from the board for soldering, and i like the fact it is direct HDMI to a monitor so you don't need a PC, and you can vary the zoom

I also saw the eevblog youtube of the DIYINHK usb microscope which looked good, what I don't like about that one so much is that is is USB so it needs a decent PC to get good frame rates and you can't alter the zoom.  I didnt' see any UK sellers for this one either, price was around $270 and I may have to pay some import duty.  Alternatively I could get it shipped to my Gran Canaria Address and maybe save some tax 

Regards the optical microscopes there seem to be plenty models like this one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20X40X-Stereo-Microscope-PCB-Repairing-Soldering-Industry-Microscope-W-Ring-lamp-/252434876585?hash=item3ac64a88a9:g:XgcAAOSwepJXa0iy which is much the same price as the Adonstar, and some others that are aropund £90 from China, which have a 90mm working distance and that sounds a bit close for a soldering iron or heatgun to me

I also find models like this one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GX-Microscopes-ST50B-20x-Stereo-Microscope-20x-Magnification-Ultra-Long/122416396398?_trksid=p2045573.c100507.m3226&_trkparms=aid%3D555014%26algo%3DPL.DEFAULT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D43261%26meid%3Dda725e0efaed43119e5cc794d4b0567a%26pid%3D100507%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26 which has 120mm working distance at 20x magnification but this is starting to get a bit of an expensive investment now.

I don't mind investing money in good equipment, but I could do with some advice from folks who already use microscopes for soldering and probing around very miniaturised component PCBs such as STB, Tablets, Motherboards etc while fault finding. 

I do like the look of the Adonstar for the money (and will mount it upside down!) but is the loss of stereo vision going to cause me problems when actually working on PCBs?

Do I in fact need to invest in both a HDMI microscope and a stereo optical microscope for different situation?  And if that is the case, which first?

Advice please

Rich

[wraper]

but is the loss of stereo vision going to cause me problems when actually working on PCBs?

IMO not just cause problems but will make it unbearable. Try soldering with one eye closed and see how it works for you.

[rrinker]

 Pretty much how I solder all the time, due to a significant vision loss in my right eye. For the heck of it I picked up one of the cheap USB microscopes and while the suction cup stand it came with is less than worthless, i is able to focus at a larger distance so I stuck it on my first shelf. It is taking some getting used to, my hands at one place and looking a different way to watch on my screen, but I think if I practice doing this more it will become natural.
 I will probably be picking up a stereo microscope though, friend of mine has ended up with two and has offered to sell me his older one for a very reasonable price.

[jolshefsky]

To quote myself from another thread ...

I bought a pair of Galilean 2.5x Loupes from LW Scientific that clip on to my glasses. I like to call them "super bifocals" since with a 380mm working distance, I can comfortably work on boards at a natural distance. They were fairly expensive, but I just can't afford anything cheaper, as the saying goes. (That is, I paid the price I did to have no eyestrain using them for the rest of my life which is far cheaper than suffering with junky optics.)

[Kjelt]

Definitely stereomicroscope but not fixed zoom but variable zoom, the best would be IMO from 3x to 20x.
I have a Leica that does 5x - 30x and use the 5x the most but wished it could go less like 3x. Also the FOV+FOD (field of view and field of depth) is important.
If you can not see enough around the parts you are working or you have to focus continually it is bothersome.

[Nusa]

The main thing to watch out for on camera and monitor setups is signal processing lag, especially at the highest resolution (which marketing videos may not be using). Both components will have some, and it may add up to enough to screw with your hand-eye coordination.

Direct optical viewing doesn't have that issue, of course.

[amspire]

I got my first Stereo microscope about 4 months ago and absolutely love it.

I have this Microscope: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Free-Shipping-3-5X-45X-Binocular-Stereo-Zoom-Microscope-Body-WF10X-20-SZM0-5X/300856_32661238738.html

Didn't bother paying a little extra for microscope with the camera mount. I occasionally take photos by putting my digital camera with a very cheap mount in one of the stereo lens positions. I think my adapters cost less then $10 in total. I couldn't take a video while I am working.

This stand: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Free-shipping-Super-Large-Microscope-Table-Stand-with-Focusing-Rack-ST2-A1/300856_32661045448.html

and a light like this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/56-LED-Adjustable-Ring-Light-for-Illuminator-Lamp-For-STEREO-Microscope-Excellent-New-Arrival-High-Quality/32772597630.html

The quality is pretty good. I think the microscopes come from the Sunny Optical that are a serious high end product company: http://www.sunnyoptical.com/en/default.html.   I am just not sure if the microscopes are genuine Sunny Optical products or a clone, but they seem identical.

I like this arrangement as I can just pick it up with one hand and stick it under the table when not using it. I can reverse the microscope on the stand and put a 5kg dumbbell from the stand to stop it from tipping to use the scope without the base. A very strong stand with no wobble at all.

With the LED light attached, you get about 180mm space below the microscope to work in, and the stand can focus on objects up to about 120mm thick. Thicker then that and I would have to raise the base with books, etc.

Now a few things I learnt.

1. It takes a while to get used to using the microscope - the head has to be very well aligned with the lenses. You learn to do it, and it becomes easy.

2. It is fine to wear glasses with the microscope, but using the microscope shows up any flaws in your lenses - like scratches. Definitely a good time to order a new set of glasses from companies like googles4u.com (they are always having sales, so wait for a 40% off or 2 for 1 deal).

3. A zoom range of 3.5 to 22.5 is pretty useful. The microscope above comes with with barlow lens to give this range, but you can take it off to get 7x to 45x.

4. No instructions, so I had to learn how to set up the microscope. First put it on maximum zoom and adjust the height for correct focus. Then minimum zoom and adjust each diopter adjustment on the lenses for best focus. Repeat. Now the microscope is in perfect focus over the zoom range.

5. Definitely need a chair to get your head in exactly the right place - like a drafting chair. Most office chairs are way too low.

[dicky96]

Thanks guys

The main thing to watch out for on camera and monitor setups is signal processing lag, especially at the highest resolution (which marketing videos may not be using). Both components will have some, and it may add up to enough to screw with your hand-eye coordination.

Would the Andonstar have that problem seeing as it is direct 1080p HDMI output rather than going through a PC/USB?

@amspire - thank you very much for your detailed reply and observations, the kit you mentioned is within the budget. 

Seeing as almost everyone says soldering/probing without stereoscopic vision is difficult, is there other reasons why the HDMI micorscopes are useful? After all they do seem quite popular.  What I am wondering is would it be an advantage to have both?  It woudl seem I could do that for around £500 which is just in budget.

I want to expand into motherboard/IPTV STB/phone/tablet/games console etc repair.  I am currently mainly fixing LCD/LED TVs, Amplifiers, DJ Mixers, Club/Bar lighting & Lasers  for which my bench magnifier is quite sufficient

Cheers
Rich

[Shock]

Trinocular microscope on a boom arm and find a camera with direct HDMI and USB out. If you want to save space plug the HDMI into the dual display port of a monitor so you can swap from PC to microscope. Then you get the best of both worlds plus USB if you need it.

[amspire]

Trinocular microscope on a boom arm and find a camera with direct HDMI and USB out. If you want to save space plug the HDMI into the dual display port of a monitor so you can swap from PC to microscope. Then you get the best of both worlds plus USB if you need it.

If you are buying a stereo microscope with a camera mount, just be aware that there are two types of implementations that almost look the same from outside. The better microscopes have a dedicated optical path for the camera so you can have stereo vision while you are using the camera. The cheaper solution is to have a little lever that switches the optical path from one eye to the camera, so when you are using the camera, you only can see through one eye. If the ad doesn't specify which it is, it is almost certainly the second cheaper option.

The cheap solution is OK when you need to take the odd photo or video for reference. For making podcasts or tutorials, you definitely want the first option.

[Nusa]

Here's a guy talking about microscropes. He's longwinded, but he really talks about what the important microscope features and options are for working on circuit boards. There's a lot of practical info in this video for someone like you, since he has been doing what you want to do for a long time now.


His current microscrope recommendations are:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005MRAAR4. The camera port doesn't interfere with the eyepieces. You can add a camera later for monitor viewing.

Or if you're really on a budget: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005C75IVM. No camera port, but you could get an eyepiece adapter for occasional use.

[dicky96]

Interesting video.  I've seen this guy before actually.

Shame that microscope he recommends on Amazon only appears to be available in the US.  I also found same one on ebay but again was US. 

For some reason I don't understand, when i order stuff from the US of A I always end up paying VAT on the item and VAT on the postage as well, but when I order from China I never get a bill for VAT when it arrives

[wraper]

but when I order from China I never get a bill for VAT when it arrives

Because they declare some fake low value which passes below the threshold.
EDIT: but don't expect that microscope with false declaration will pass through the customs.

[Kjelt]

Here's a guy talking about microscropes. He's longwinded, but he really talks about what the important microscope features and options are for working on circuit boards.

After seeing this and hearing him say he uses 10x-20x  at 99% of the time I wonder if there is a difference between brands of stereo microscopes.
I personally use 5x-10x 99% of the time and 5x the most. Not only for smd but also for TH solder checking (getting old  ).

[dicky96]

Probably there is a difference between the size of components you are likely to be working with depending on the type of kit you are working on .