Looking for PCB bench drill

[CopperCone]

I think I want large bubbles anyway.

[KL27x]

Of course, you do.  

Years from now, when you can do 8/8 all day, I can't wait to hear how you finally managed to do it... exactly like everyone else.

[CopperCone]

I am probably going to stick to using garbage bags I am not that tempted to fuck with the acrylic tank anymore.

[KL27x]

  on swear word other than "shit."
LOLs for building an acrylic vertical etch tank, starting a bubble tank vs spray etcher thread, and a day later settling on garbage bags as the future of etching. 

[CopperCone]

No I just noticed that I had very good results with very little effort in the past, the tank I found, someone was using it as a flower pot in a experiment, its just the bag method is annoying to set up. After I noticed the column effect happening with the bubbles at pressures that worked in bags for bigger PCB's with better results I just said fuck it. Why tune a difficult process when I made giant mixed parts PCB's with the bag method in the past first try with bad exposure?

It costs me 20$ a shot to test it on a big PCB. Not to mention someone brought up a shadowing effect that seems to happen with the engineered material, something I have never seen. It seems like it would cost me quite a bit of time and money to determine whats going on, if its confined to using the dry film... I am just cutting my losses. If I buy this stuff and start noticing some kind of shadow effect thats just more lost time and money. I literary poked holes in a acrylic tube using a needle, put it in my welded trash bag and got good results, its a no brainer for me. I would rather just buy quality parts to stick on the PCB.

[KL27x]

Responded in your bubble vs spray etch thread.

[Davy]

Here's the explanation of the differences between Xenon & Proxon -:

Xenox is the daughter of PROXXON, both items are produced the absolute same
way, the only difference lays with the color. Xenox is made for
laboratories, dentists, beauty salons. They prefer another color, not the
PROXXON - green. But the white Xenox items are produced in much smaller
quantities, therefore they are more expensive, but both are of the same
quality.

Best regards

Dorothee Rauch

This solves my problem, thanks to all who replied,  Dave

[janoc]

My Proxxon cutoff saw is made in China.  Does being made in Germany (more accurately claimed to be made in Germany) make the specifications any better?  About 10 years ago, I returned a Proxxon drill press as junk.  Lots of nice chrome, but really poor run-out.  The Proxxon distributor in the US at that time was in North Carolina.   Maybe Proxxon has addressed those problems, but run-out is still the question.  What is the current run-out spec for the Proxxon bench model?  Have you tested it?

I have only the "handtool + stand" combo, not the TBM 220 (or the larger one, not sure the number) unit. I didn't measure the runout, my dial indicator is pretty cheap and crappy unit (only using it to level the 3D printer bed) so it likely wouldn't show much.

However, for 0.8 drills I use it with it is totally fine, never broke one in that. Visually you can see it is running true, unlike the cheap tools where no matter how you chuck the bit it will be wobbling around like crazy. The official runout specs are on the order of 1 thou, at least for some models.

You are more likely to have issues with slop in the stands than runout of the spindle. The one I have has quite a bit of play.

Of course, if someone wants to use 0.1-0.2mm drills, that's a different story and there you are likely pushing the hardware to the limits it wasn't really designed for.

[janoc]

@janoc
I nearly got a Dremal stand but had read bad reports, Servo products look interesting I'll have a good look, thanks for link, our voltage here is  240 AC at 50Hz.

The Dremel stands are garbage. They will do maybe for some light woodworking but that's all. I am not far from Paris and there is a large hardware store there (BHV for the French guys here) where you can actually try all these tools - they have them side by side set up on a bench. Even just the feel of the stand when you try to manipulate it screams "cheap!". The Proxxon hardware is much better built in comparison.

I've had bad experience with Ali Express, bought some meters and some of the numbers was on their sides almost some markings pale and some over done..... straight into the bin they went, they were quite comical to look at.... I should have known better.

Yeah, this kind of hw is risky to buy from there - expensive shipping and you have no idea what you get. Not worth the trouble, IMO.

I Emailed them in Germany and then found a place in UK, here is the link of the drill https://www.shesto.co.uk/craft-model-and-hobby/hand-tools/drill-drill-holders/xenox-xe68128v-tbx-bench-drill-machine/  A lot cheaper than RS, no idea what the warranty is but RS offers a 3 year one.

Thanks for your input, Dave

Xenox is the same as Proxxon, it is their "pro" line mainly oriented towards dental labs and such.

Re warranty - if you are in the UK, you will get at least the 2 years standard EU warranty on it (as a private person, if you are buying for business that is different).

[janoc]

https://www.banggood.com/02mm-To-05mm-Drill-Bits-Tool-Kit-For-3D-Printer-Nozzle-Cleaning-p-924893.html?gmcCountry=US&currency=USD&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_elc&utm_content=frank&utm_campaign=pla-mix-us-pc-0626&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvaGembTP3AIVE8NkCh35Nw0fEAQYAiABEgLy5_D_BwE&cur_warehouse=CN

They're so small, Banggood makes an oddly specific and niche suggestion for use. 

Because nobody else but people needing to clear clogs in their 3D printer nozzles would buy them from Banggood. A machinist needing bits this small will likely use a more reputable source.

[KL27x]

It's amazing how cheaply these can be made, assuming they work. For something that you will accidentally break with the wrong look, I would try it.

I'm not sure if it is carbide or steel though. It doesn't say in the description. I think japanhalt might know something we don't from his previous post.

If it's carbide or steel seems to make a difference with the cheap as dirt chinese imports. All my ridiculously cheap carbide bits are really nice and consistent AFAIC. The sharpening might not be pro quality, but the dimensions are at least good by my standards (I don't measure them with a micrometer, mind). The dirty cheap steel bits often have poorer machining tolerances that are noticeable in the shanks. Buy 10 bits, and you might get some that are grossly over or undersized or unevenly ground to where they barely fit in the collet and only get halfway straight.

Makes me suspect some of these outfits are selling resharpened carbide bits to get the price that low. I understand used carbide bits have significant scrap value. It makes sense if many of them can be factory refurbished. With steel bits, you don't know if the heat treat has been borked. Those would be dicier to remanufacture.

[BradC]

FR4 eats steel bits for breakfast. Almost all the cheap carbide bits are re-sharpened industrial bits. Not suitable for manufacture, but perfectly usable for home hand or cnc drilling where bit life and throughput are not really factors.

[KL27x]

I'm not sure that life and throughput are the major reasons, though. I suspect that in many manufacturing processes, it is just too much trouble to adjust software/hardware to account for the shrinkage and other minor variation in bit shape after resharpening. Whereas the home gamer might go a really long time on a single bit, and probably will be adjusting it for multiple jobs in its lifetime, anyway. Well, in particular, I'm thinking about mills and whatnot, that cut on the side. I suppose twist drills get most of the wear on the points.

Whatever the reason, I love cheap carbide bits. The steel one are more of a gamble.

[mzzj]

FR4 eats steel bits for breakfast. Almost all the cheap carbide bits are re-sharpened industrial bits. Not suitable for manufacture, but perfectly usable for home hand or cnc drilling where bit life and throughput are not really factors.

Carbide drill sharpening services are also used in industry and I'm pretty sure nobody would invest on a million dollar pcb drill sharpening machine just to sell used drills to hobbyist on ebay 

[Davy]

@janoc
'Xenox is the same as Proxxon, it is their "pro" line mainly oriented towards dental labs and such.'

Would you say Xenox were made to a higher spec? From what I can make out Xenox are made in Germany while Proxon, they may have their HQ in Germany but aren't they assembled in the Far east somewhere? It just seems odd two items being exactly the same in all but colours having two different names.

Dave

[Wolfgang]

I do confess that I drilled all my homemade PCBs with a Proxxon MicroMot and 0.8mm drills.
Anything smaller is too small for my old eyes to be adjusted perfectly.

Now I use an external PCB fab for my designs, and they can make holes as small as you want.
To do this by hand is a sort of slave labour, why do this ? Its tedious, drills will notoriously break, its inexact.

If you really want to fiddle with holes that small personally, get a CNC machine.

[rdl]

I don't know what the rules are for such things in Europe, but my Proxxon TBM 115 label states "Made in Luxemburg".

Would you say Xenox were made to a higher spec? From what I can make out Xenox are made in Germany while Proxon, they may have their HQ in Germany but aren't they assembled in the Far east somewhere? It just seems odd two items being exactly the same in all but colours having two different names.

[janoc]

@janoc
'Xenox is the same as Proxxon, it is their "pro" line mainly oriented towards dental labs and such.'

Would you say Xenox were made to a higher spec? From what I can make out Xenox are made in Germany while Proxon, they may have their HQ in Germany but aren't they assembled in the Far east somewhere? It just seems odd two items being exactly the same in all but colours having two different names.

Dave

No idea, I have no first-hand experience with the Xenox branded gear. But someone said already that Xenox is basically the same as the green Proxxon kit, just with a different packaging/colors so that it doesn't look like an eyesore in a dental lab among all that white and beige gear.

For me the regular green/yellow kit was plenty good already.

[SparkyFX]

I'll be getting the matching chuck rather than using collets.

Small size drill bits are usually not OK with any side load.
So better thoroughly check the runout of the drill in the chuck with a dial indicator. Some are too inaccurate and do not match the collet system. Also a minimal amount of play in the quill is important, as the forces will make it move, the less the quill is extended the better it usually is in terms of runout.

The smaller the drill, the higher the RPM should be, but most drill presses require changing over the belt.
This is why i use the drill/mill stand and a small proxxon bfw 40e router (900-6000 rpm), it can take collets and i also have an albrecht chuck for it.