Author Topic: Metcal or Thermaltronics or ... ? (Read 39862 times)

onesixright · « **on:** September 09, 2015, 10:35:48 pm »

Hi People,

I'm thinking of buying a new solder stations. Curie Point technology got my interest, i know Dave is not a big fan of it ;-)

What do you guys think, is it worth of buying Metcal over Thermaltronics?

Any good reason to shell out a few more bucks and buy a Metcal or is it a waste of money, and Thermaltronics is as good?

I like the thought of the 5200 series, which could get up to 80 watts. However, which situations do require that? Another thing is the dual channel, both the 9000 and the 500 series, needs to be switched by hand. Mint a fan of the button on the TMT, but is it truly a issue?

I don't intent to use it for professional use, but i hate "cheap" stuff since -most of the time- it comes back and bites you in the ass (i.e. you end up buying better after all)

Please take a vote and tell me what you guys think....

Thanks!

0xdeadbeef · « **Reply #1 on:** September 09, 2015, 10:39:09 pm »

Why did you rule out the Metcal MFR line - formerly known as OKi?

onesixright · « **Reply #2 on:** September 09, 2015, 10:46:58 pm »

Quote from: 0xdeadbeef on September 09, 2015, 10:39:09 pm

Why did you rule out the Metcal MFR line - formerly known as OKi?

No specific reason, i added it. Thanks :-)

KL27x · « **Reply #3 on:** September 09, 2015, 11:50:35 pm »

For production use, I'm impressed with Metcal (500). Instant joints and you never have to stop to clean the tip. It seems like the Curie effect produces an instant standby/full-throttle. You can throw all the PID algorithms and power you want at a soldering iron, but you can't take out the thermal lag between the tip and heater/sensor. Until the sensor can read your mind, it will always be one step behind.

I'm not familiar with Thermaltronics. I've used $300 Wellers, cheap generic junk, and I have settled on a small Hakko FX for myself. The difference between any of these irons to me is essentially squat and comes down to ergonomics and cost effectiveness. I was genuinely surprised by the Metcal.

I made my own battery powered, portable iron that runs on standby (slightly above solder melting point) by default. When you push a button, it goes full throttle for a couple seconds. In practice, you push the button, wait a second, then make the joint(s). It works great (on smaller joints), and I never have to clean the tip of that iron. The Metcal seems to approximate that, automatically. I'm convinced that in practice, instant and appropriate POWER regulation beats any attempt at TEMPERATURE regulation. It doesn't matter if the temp of the Metcal goes up if you hold it on a joint for 10 seconds. It doesn't matter than a JBC can hold that joint at exactly X degrees, indefinitely. When the joint reflows, you usually remove the tip. The practical reason why we turn the temp down on our irons where we can isn't to protect delicate electronics from thermal damage. It's to keep the flux from burning up and having to clean and replace tips more often.

Someone · « **Reply #4 on:** September 10, 2015, 12:46:39 am »

I'm one of the few on here who has used both for any substantial period of time (and many other brands too previously) and have personally settled on Metcal stations and tips, both the new 500 series for fine work and the 800/900 for bulk power needs. The Thermaltronics stations I have used were of poor quality and one was replaced under warranty after it burst into flames, the 5 year warranty is comforting but the tips I have tried from them have had very short service life run either in their stations or in metal systems. With competition in the marketplace the Metcal systems are now very affordable and you can find dual hand piece systems new for $1000 USD.

GreyWoolfe · « **Reply #5 on:** September 10, 2015, 12:44:34 pm »

Someone, let me ask a question. You said the Thermaltronics tips have a short service life. I assume you mean in a production environment. Do you have an opinion on them for hobbyist use? They are cheaper than the Metcal tips and I would like to save some money but I don't want to have to replace them after a year of occasional hobby use (also have a Hakko FX-951). My 936 tips have lasted much longer than that.

zapta · « **Reply #6 on:** September 10, 2015, 01:16:05 pm »

Quote from: GreyWoolfe on September 10, 2015, 12:44:34 pm

Someone, let me ask a question. You said the Thermaltronics tips have a short service life. I assume you mean in a production environment. Do you have an opinion on them for hobbyist use? They are cheaper than the Metcal tips and I would like to save some money but I don't want to have to replace them after a year of occasional hobby use (also have a Hakko FX-951). My 936 tips have lasted much longer than that.

I am using Thermaltronics M7DS529 Hoof 60deg 1.52mm tip with Metcal 500 and it became my favorite tip for SMD work. No problem whatsoever though I am a hobbyist so only occasional use.

alexanderbrevig · « **Reply #7 on:** September 10, 2015, 01:29:47 pm »

I love my Thermaltronics station. Much prefer it to the Weller at work. Only had it for a few weeks and the build seems very good to me.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

zapta · « **Reply #8 on:** September 10, 2015, 01:43:14 pm »

As mentioned in another thread, JBC has two categories or solder stations with X4 difference is heating time so it's useful to mention the model when talking about 'JBC'.

Poe · « **Reply #9 on:** September 10, 2015, 03:27:26 pm »

Once we started using Metcals the other irons were used less and less. They all still work, but you'd think they didn't.

We have various high end Pace/Hakko/JBC workstations with various bits and bobs as a comparison. I have no experience with Thermaltronics or Weller.

georges80 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 10, 2015, 04:31:12 pm »

I have an old Metcal 500 series. Bought 2nd hand on Ebay some 12+ years ago. It has been rock solid and the only thing I've had to repair/replace is the power switch (wore it out

). It is used just about every day.

The near instant response to thermal demands while soldering makes the Metcal technology fantastic for any soldering jobs I've ever needed to do.

Tips last a long time if you treat them well (solder/flux quality and leave them tinned).

I've used a few thermaltronics tips but I've found that the tip edge on their chisels are not as thin/sharp as the Metcal versions. Given how long the tips last, saving a few dollars isn't worth it to me.

In summary, a very reliable unit and a good long term purchase.

cheers,
george.

gibbled · « **Reply #11 on:** September 10, 2015, 06:59:23 pm »

I have one of the older metcal ps2e-01's. I occasionally consider getting one of the new 5200 series for the higher power output but really can't justify the purchase as the old one does everything so well.

Monkeh · « **Reply #12 on:** September 10, 2015, 07:11:09 pm »

Having just recently acquired a PS2E-01 and converted it to real voltage operation, I love it. Using Thermaltronics tips with it (an assortment of chisels up to 5mm and a tiny conical), it'll solder anything from a single pad on a QFN to a TO-220 tab, and be ready to do it in seconds.

Can't recommend proper Metcal or Thermaltronics (either, as long as it's the 13.56MHz stuff) enough. The 470kHz apparently isn't bad, but it's not the same beast at all. Shop around, you can get really good deals from time to time.

plazma · « **Reply #13 on:** September 10, 2015, 07:21:56 pm »

The older Metcal units like stss-ps2v-02 can be bought for less than 100€. It's like a 500 series with only one output.

Someone · « **Reply #14 on:** September 10, 2015, 11:02:19 pm »

Quote from: GreyWoolfe on September 10, 2015, 12:44:34 pm

Someone, let me ask a question. You said the Thermaltronics tips have a short service life. I assume you mean in a production environment. Do you have an opinion on them for hobbyist use?

The thermaltronics tips were losing their plating (different batches and different geometries) so while they still worked as a hot object the contact and wetting progressively got worse, it takes all the benefits of the curie heating away since you can no longer deliver the heat to the solder joint directly. The frustration was enough that I wouldn't recommend the tips for now while the price difference is so small ($25US vs $35US).

john_p_wi · « **Reply #15 on:** September 11, 2015, 01:39:34 pm »

I own and use the MX-5051 soldering / desoldering station. At my place of employment we have at least 20 Metcal systems ranging from the 500 series to the 5200 series spread between engineering, production and service. IMHO, the versatility of the newer Metcal systems (5XXX) is unsurpassed, with 5 tips or so, one can solder anything from the smallest smt to through hole to heavy ground planes.

I believe that the 5200 will allow two hand pieces to be energized simultaneously which could simplify removing smt components, I have not used the 5200 in production so I can't give feedback. Unfortunately, my only complaint with Metcal is the cost of their talon hand piece - something I can not justify for my personal purchase at this time. I do have the through hole desoldering "gun" which does work very well though, and if I get in a smt bind I can use the talon's at my work's lab, on the other hand, the normal hand piece tip - STTC-144 is a fine "bent" tip great for smt 805 r and cs' etc and can easily "sweep" the smaller components off of the pad for rework.

I have been soldering for 40 years, there is no comparison between "classic" irons and the Metcal system. I often wonder why people will spend thousands on test equipment but only dollars on soldering equipment which is probably the most used equipment on the bench???

zapta · « **Reply #16 on:** September 11, 2015, 02:24:10 pm »

For all the Metcal users, do you use tips with different temperatures or just one temperature fits them all?

I have 5 tips and they are all 1xxx temperature.

john_p_wi · « **Reply #17 on:** September 11, 2015, 02:37:52 pm »

For personal use and builds I use the STTC 413 degree C tips with 63 37 leaded solder. I only change the tip size and solder dia. The newer Metcals regulate temps very well, I use it for everything from smt processors to heavy leaded tube amp stuff.

Mephitus · « **Reply #18 on:** September 11, 2015, 08:19:00 pm »

I also have a Metcal PS2E-01 that I got from my local classifieds for $15 USD (The gods of electronics shone their electron glory on me that day). Take my opinion with a grain of salt as I have not purchased any tips yet, but the thing is built like a brick. For a unit that is this old, if you treat it right, you will probly kick the bucket before it does. I honestly think I could run a semi-truck over it and only have to worry about scratching the paint. Performance wise I have always heard people compair it to the (now classic) MX-500 units with the only real difference being that it only has 1 connection. The mind-boggling variety of tips with reliable operational temperatures means you can always find *exactly* the right tool for the job.

That being said, if you need something a little easier to move around or for basic usage. I have always heard fantastic things about the Hakko FX-888 and up. Or the Weller WD and WX series stations.

GreyWoolfe · « **Reply #19 on:** September 11, 2015, 11:00:43 pm »

Mephitus, you got the glory for the price you paid but you will have an epiphany when you use it. I recently scored an MX-500 with the Talon tweezers/cradle for free by bartering a whole bunch of components and NOS switches(1,000 of them) someone gave me at a new local surplus store. I scored a NOS RM3E wand and new WS-1 cradle off eBay for $140 USD total. I got 1 tip to fully test and I getting ready to order more. Metcal makes great stuff that, if treated right, just lasts. I wish I would have found it before I purchased my Hakko FX-951, but I didn't try to return the Hakko as I love that station also and it is nice to have 2 awesome soldering irons on my bench. As a further kick to the total cost, I sold my 7 year old Hakko 936 that I bought for a project for work and wrote off on my taxes for $50 and I even threw in a 2nd power supply I got for free and 6 tips-that money went toward the wand and cradle.

I have always been the one to say, why can't I ever get deals like that. I think I did OK with my Metcal. That same store is selling RFG-30 power supplies, tested, for $35 USD.

D3f1ant · « **Reply #20 on:** September 12, 2015, 12:20:25 am »

I've not used other currie point units besides the Metcal. We have a couple of them in production, and they have proven extremely reliable with superb tip life. I've used very expensive (Ersa and Weller) soldering irons in various workplaces, and IMO none of them perform as well as as even entry level metcals. With a currie point you don't need to change to a bigger tip or crank up the temperature when soldering something a bit bigger than your technically setup for. Changing tips is easy, and fast...3 or 4 tips and you can literally solder anything.

Currie Point technology just seems to give a superior soldering experience, almost no thermal lag and no tweaking temperatures. I don't know about the metcal clones (thermaltronics are tip compatible = clone, I think), I tend to dislike clones on principle. Hakko do a currie point iron too now, but tip availability might be a problem. At least with a metcal you can buy tips from the big catalog suppliers, and they usually have stock.

I admit, I became a metcal fan from the first day I used one, it just works so well.

Someone · « **Reply #21 on:** September 12, 2015, 02:40:06 am »

Quote from: zapta on September 11, 2015, 02:24:10 pm

For all the Metcal users, do you use tips with different temperatures or just one temperature fits them all?

I have 5 tips and they are all 1xxx temperature.

I have some of the low temperature tips for plastic working!

timofonic · « **Reply #22 on:** September 12, 2015, 03:21:57 am »

Curry Point Technology, delicious geek stuff!

Jokes aside, anyone tried to build the DIY Metcal Soldering Station? I'm unable to decipher the forum thread, nobody summarized and I have problems understanding all this giant bunch if info about RF and component changes...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=12578.0

0xdeadbeef · « **Reply #23 on:** September 12, 2015, 09:53:16 am »

I'm obviously the only user of the Metcal/OKI MFR line here and I can't actually claim I used the "real" Metcal stuff to compare it, but IMHO the MFR line gives you the SmartHeart/Curie technology at a better price point. The built quality of the MFR line is pretty much awesome. The aluminium cast cases are oozing quality, the tips can be easily exchanged while working and the product range is similar. Yet everything (including tweezers, desoldering tool) is quite a bit cheaper. Indeed I wanted to buy some used MX500 or so at first, but finally decided for the MFR line instead. Partly because I couldn't really find anybody stating that the MFR line was really performing worse and partly because the tips and replacement parts for the MFR line are much easier to obtain here (Voelkner/Conrad) while the Metcal/Thermaltronics 13.56MHz stuff is rather difficult to come by.

Monkeh · « **Reply #24 on:** September 12, 2015, 10:55:33 am »

They're easily enough found at Farnell... Tad pricy, though, which is why I imported.


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