Metcal Vs Thermaltronics and 470khz vs 13.56mhz

[labjr]

Hi folks! I've been browsing this forum for some time and finally decided to register.

I mostly service old vacuum tube guitar amps and point to point wired electronics. I also do some through hole PCB work and occasional SMD. I'm currently using an old Weller EC1002 and I just ordered a Hakko FX888D. Now I'm wondering if I should just get an induction iron instead?

It's been a few years since Thermaltronics started making Metcal Compatible irons and tips.

I'm wondering if the quality is the same? The longevity of the tips and reliability is good as Metcal?

What is the difference between the 470khz and 13.56mhz systems? I noticed the 470khz systems seem to put out 50W vs 40w and tips are cheaper. What is the advantage of the 13.56 mhz system?

Options are confusing. Like which hand piece would I want for my type of work? Will a Curie point iron work well for my type of work?

Thanks,

Larry

[Capa-Alpha]

The big problem with Metcal and Thermaltronics is cost of tips. The Metcal tips start at US$25 and the ThermalTronics start at $18 each. And god help you if you need to use a specialty tip because you will end up paying double to triple price on those. Another issue is that both of those induction/curie point irons are locked into one specific temperature, and who knows what that is. So a Metcal "700 Series" tip infers that the tip runs at 700°F, by in reality it may range from 680 - 790°F, depending on when it was made. Not sure about the Thermaltronics but since they are manufactured by the ex-President ogf Metcal, I'd expect the exact same temperature issue. Finally, because these curie point tips have only one temperature and zero variability, you frequently are forced to buy multiple tips of an identical tip geometry to handle different high mass boards. An ultra expensive way to go! 

[mikeselectricstuff]

The big problem with Metcal and Thermaltronics is cost of tips. The Metcal tips start at US$25 and the ThermalTronics start at $18 each. And god help you if you need to use a specialty tip because you will end up paying double to triple price on those. Another issue is that both of those induction/curie point irons are locked into one specific temperature, and who knows what that is. So a Metcal "700 Series" tip infers that the tip runs at 700°F, by in reality it may range from 680 - 790°F, depending on when it was made. Not sure about the Thermaltronics but since they are manufactured by the ex-President ogf Metcal, I'd expect the exact same temperature issue. Finally, because these curie point tips have only one temperature and zero variability, you frequently are forced to buy multiple tips of an identical tip geometry to handle different high mass boards. An ultra expensive way to go!

The tips are expensive but they last very well - years of daily use. In practice you don't need many different tips - I use two tips 90% of the time and could live with only having another couple for more specialist jobs.

If anything I find Thermaltronics tips last longer, and in one case, have slightly better geometry. 

The temperature thing really isn't an issue - unlike other irons, they have tons of power with no overshoot, so you don't need to use a higher temp tip for heavier loads.
Tips can often be found cheap on Ebay btw.

As regards difference between the 13M and 470K, the main difference is that there are a lot more specialist tips available for the 13M ones. 

A Metcal is absolutely ideal for work that involves soldering big chunky stuff - you can solder a TO220 device to sheet of copper in a few seconds, but the handle is very near the tip for good control, and stays cool. the standard handpieces are fine - although they do fine ones, I've never found the standard ones to be too big.
 

[GreyWoolfe]

I use 600 series tips in several sizes up to 3.4 mm in my MX-500 and haven't yet found anything I can't solder.  I have an 800 series tip for the little lead free I do.  The biggest soldering task with the 600 series 3.4 mm tip was to solder a 5 watt bleeder resistor to what is every bit of 1/2" pads that the filter capacitor in my Astron VS-35M power supply is soldered to.  Almost instant wetting with Kester 44 63/37 and some MG Chemicals liquid flux.  You can get deals on Metcal tips on eBay or buy Thermaltronics tips.  They work just as well.  I have both and can't tell the difference in performance.  The amount of power Metcal stations have is ridiculous.  By the way, the MX-500 is the 13.56 MHz big brother.  If you are not in a production environment where the the station is used all day long on multiple shifts, the tips will last a very long time.  Don't think of price, think total cost of ownership, including the time lost and aggravation gained for equipment that is ALMOST good enough. 

I also have a Hakko FX-951 which I got a few months before the Metcal.  If the deal on the Metcal would have come in when I was looking to upgrade, I wouldn't have bought the 951.  I use both and really enjoy both but if I had to choose 1 of them, Metcal all the way.

[LaurentR]

Trying to summarize the general opinion on Metcal on the forum (flame suit on):
* Performance is outstanding. Power delivery is huge despite apparently low power rating (40W/80W). No overshoot. It's as good as you can get, with some competing systems getting to that level (opinions vary).
* Ridiculously fast power delivery is nice but not needed is most standard cases. You'll see a difference vs. the FX888D for instance mostly on heat up time and soldering larger masses.
* The handle is very good. Your fingers are close to the tip and it doesn't get hot.
* The lack of temperature control is a big deal for some and a non-issue for others. One the one hand, some (including Dave) prefer temperature control without having a collection of tips for that purpose. OTOH most Metcal users use just one temperature tip (7 series for most, 6-series for some) and don't see the need to change (fast power delivery + no overshoot = no real need to modulate temperature to the work). Most Metcal users have a one or more different temp tip "just in case". Tips are very easy to change.
* Tip and power supply durability is extremely high. These are production line items and will last a long time. I have personally never seen a Metcal tip goes bad, but evidently it is possible.
* Power supply and tips are expensive if purchased new. Probably impossible to justify for a hobbyist or a low-usage environment. However, the whole ecosystem has been around for a long time and the market (EBay) is full of supplies and tips at substantial discounts. Many happy Metcal users on the forum have bought their system at very affordable prices on the second-hand market.
Thermaltronics is a good alternative for lower supply and tip prices, but if you're ok with buying used, you'll find many more Metcal items are reasonable prices.
If you're going Metcal, you might as well go with the 13MHz system (something like a MX-500 supply).

I would say that in the vast majority of cases, you won't _need_ a Metcal iron. But if you buy one (and are ok with the lack of temperature control), you will likely be very happy with it.

Disclaimer: I am a hobbyist happy with my Metcal. I have had a FX-888D was was happy with it too. I think the FX-888D could do everything I do with the Metcal. What I like with the Metcal is that you never have to worry about it, wait for it or tinker with it. It is one of those tools that allow you to focus on your work, not on the tool.
I have bought a number of tips and accessories at good prices on EBay.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Trying to summarize the general opinion on Metcal on the forum (flame suit on):

Pretty much sums it up.
Nobody needs a Metcal, or Keysight scope, or Makita drill, or  Fluke DMM, Wiha screwdrivers, or any other bit of higher-end kit, but sometimes you just want to have nice things.
For a tool you are going to be use a lot, it will save you some time, and help you do a better job, and may also reduce the risk of damaging PCBs.
Unless you are into using exotic solders for niche applications, the temperature adjust thing is just a non-issue. If you want it, get a JBC instead.

[cs.dk]

I would say that in the vast majority of cases, you won't _need_ a Metcal iron. But if you buy one (and are ok with the lack of temperature control), you will likely be very happy with it.

I agree.. I bought a MX-5200, it's a pretty expensive kit. But it's worth all of it. I have never used an iron that compares in terms of low weight handle and that massive amount of power.. 

[GreyWoolfe]

LaurentR, hit right with Metcal.  Yes, they are expensive, but have been around so long that deals can be gotten.  My local surplus store has a bunch of power supplies for $35, not sure the model, RFG-30 I believe, all tested and working.  I traded a bunch of NOS components that were given to me for my MX-500, Talon tweezers and stand.  Patient shopping scored a NOS RM3E wand for $65 shipped and the stand for about the same money.  The same deal hunting on tips scored 6 tips for about $60 and I am all in for about $200.  Metcal doesn't have to be expensive if you're patient.  Right now on eBay is an SP-200, handpiece and 2 new tips for $125 shipped.  Add a Thermaltronics stand and, again, under $200 for a Metcal.  There is an STSS-200 with wand for $95, a Thermaltronics stand and a couple of tips will put you right at the $200 mark again.  Mikeselectricstuff almost has it right   It's not just about wanting nice stuff, and believe me, I do, but quality tools last way longer than cheap tools.  My father was a construction worker and depended on his tools.  He 'drilled' it into me to buy right, buy the best you can afford and buy once.  That applies to anything.