Mini Blog: IMDES Vapour Phase Purchase - Jumbo.

[mrpackethead]

26 Aug 2016: well, I was going to build a VP machine, but well, time has run away with me, and i've just had to admit, i'll never get to finish yet another project.
I am not looking for something or massive numbers of throughput, but i do want to get really nice results, and VP has a lot of benefits. This morning i talked with Marc from IMDES in Germany, and he gave me some details about it.. I've decided to go for the Jumbo which will take pcbs up to 430 x 230mm.        The machine is being made to order, and i've paid my deposit.  It should be ready to get shipped out in a month.   This is a little bit of a adventure as these are not super well known but he seems very knowledgable, and sometimes you just have to take a risk...  I'll post to this top message as it progresses! 


3 September:   construction is underway, hes got all his parts. These are not off the shelf machines, but it seems he shoudl be able to deliver well inside of what they promises.    Certainly coudl have used this machien this week, as i had some difficult to solder inductors.

24 September: The unit is finished, and shipping via DHL.     He said a month and its been sent inside that. Thats good.

25 sept.  Gah.  Shipping is by post!!! DHL is the post office in Germany and nice just paid a huge amount for mail.  This really is dissappointing.  They said DHL and it was abut 130Euro..  THat is what i woudl expect to pay for DHL express Courier.  Not general airmail.

30 Sept:  Got a tracking numer but it looks like its still in germany.  Becoming very dis-satisified about this..    Seriusly this was a bad call for them to put this item in the post..  Fully expecting it to arrive smashed and un-usable.

4 October: Its arrived.  The trackign still says its in germany..  Its come in without passign through customs, and me having to pay GST, which is very bizzare, as it worth well in excess of the GST threshold.   

4 October: A bit later on in teh day..   Got it unpacked and setup..       Mmm.   the packing was a bit average for a machien that costs this, you should take a bit more effort...  Forutantly it appears that everything arrived ok, without any issues..  apart from there being no user-manuals.  Marc supplied that quickly.. 

4 October.. A little later.    Have deep fryed my first board in it.    I'm seriously impressed by the end result..      This is good, because to be honest i'm not that impressed with the constrution of this machine..   It kind of feels like this is a 2nd prototype.  Theres things about it that are just "unfinished"..
They certainly have got the process under control, but i kind of feel, "meh", why did they do this!

[tautech]

Subscribed.
After seeing all your posts in the other thread I was sure you'd build one, anyway hope it a doozy.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/vapour-phase-soldering/

[mrpackethead]

Subscribed.
After seeing all your posts in the other thread I was sure you'd build one, anyway hope it a doozy.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/vapour-phase-soldering/

I might still, but i have real world problems that need a real world answer in a short time. that sometimes means, just saying "stop playing and spend some money and buy something made.  one of the real problems with being a "maker" is that we kid oru selves into thinking we should make everything. What we should make is things that other people dont.

[wraper]

I have IMDES mini. Well, it does the job. But it's construction is just some kind of weird DIY     with wiring being exposed.
Also had weirdest packaging of new device I've seen. Really make you say WOW when receiving your new device. Horribly packed with a ton of newspapers and no padding on the bottom which together with comstruction caused all of legs bent inside. Also first I've done is glued all of the leds with silicone adhesive because hot melt glue was already falling off. All of the labels made form paper printed by inkjet printer and then laminated. Never got to writing a review. Higher res pics: http://imgur.com/a/TgjjX

[wraper]

more pics

[wraper]

BTW case is used instead of GND wire. Considering that lug is not even screwed but attached by crappy rivet which is not very tight, it does not make feel good about it.

[ovnr]

Wow. That's some atrocious construction.

How expensive was it?

[wraper]

How expensive was it?

EUR 700  , for that money it certainly could be built better. But Jumbo costs EUR 2200, seems to be exactly the same construction, just larger, from the pics on the website.

[mrpackethead]

I have IMDES mini. Well, it does the job. But it's construction is just some kind of weird DIY     with wiring being exposed.
Also had weirdest packaging of new device I've seen. Really make you say WOW when receiving your new device. Horribly packed with a ton of newspapers and no padding on the bottom which together with comstruction caused all of legs bent inside. Also first I've done is glued all of the leds with silicone adhesive because hot melt glue was already falling off. All of the labels made form paper printed by inkjet printer and then laminated. Never got to writing a review. Higher res pics: http://imgur.com/a/TgjjX

Did you send it back or try to send it back?    Stuff goes wrong for every vendor from time to time.   The putting it right is what counts in the end.  The people who i talked to who also own one, did'nt report anything like this.

[wraper]

I have IMDES mini. Well, it does the job. But it's construction is just some kind of weird DIY     with wiring being exposed.
Also had weirdest packaging of new device I've seen. Really make you say WOW when receiving your new device. Horribly packed with a ton of newspapers and no padding on the bottom which together with comstruction caused all of legs bent inside. Also first I've done is glued all of the leds with silicone adhesive because hot melt glue was already falling off. All of the labels made form paper printed by inkjet printer and then laminated. Never got to writing a review. Higher res pics: http://imgur.com/a/TgjjX

Did you send it back or try to send it back?    Stuff goes wrong for every vendor from time to time.   The putting it right is what counts in the end.  The people who i talked to who also own one, did'nt report anything like this.

I bent the legs back. As of construction itself, I don't think that it can be fixed unless altering the design itself. No, I didn't bother to return it. I use it, bet certainly have some dubious feelings about it.

[wraper]

If that PSU wasn't mounted uncovered on the back with wires exposed, and there was grill on the bottom to cover all of the wires, I'd call it OK-ish.

[mrpackethead]

I woudl have at least called them to express my dis-satisfaction..   Marc tells me that they are now all covered, so there has been some design changes from your machine.   and hopefully its packed well

[mrpackethead]

Its shipping!

[mrpackethead]

26 Aug 2016: well, I was going to build a VP machine, but well, time has run away with me, and i've just had to admit, i'll never get to finish yet another project.
I am not looking for something or massive numbers of throughput, but i do want to get really nice results, and VP has a lot of benefits. This morning i talked with Marc from IMDES in Germany, and he gave me some details about it.. I've decided to go for the Jumbo which will take pcbs up to 430 x 230mm.        The machine is being made to order, and i've paid my deposit.  It should be ready to get shipped out in a month.   This is a little bit of a adventure as these are not super well known but he seems very knowledgable, and sometimes you just have to take a risk...  I'll post to this top message as it progresses! 


3 September:   construction is underway, hes got all his parts. These are not off the shelf machines, but it seems he shoudl be able to deliver well inside of what they promises.    Certainly coudl have used this machien this week, as i had some difficult to solder inductors.

24 September: The unit is finished, and shipping via DHL.     He said a month and its been sent inside that. Thats good.

25 sept.  Gah.  Dhipping is by post!!! DHL is the post office in Germany and nice just paid a huge amount for mail.  This really is dissappointing. 

[Neganur]

DHL is not just the post office in Germany (www.diepost.de vs. www.dhl.de), it is also an express courier. Yes it's part of the greater corporation name but think of it like Agilent was not just TME but also other stuff.

You have to be sure it's sent as express parcel tho, not just the normal parcel. Difference will be the car that delivers it vs. having to pick it up in the post office (for shipments outside Germany at least, inside the same couriers deliver packages from Die Post too)

EDIT:

now after seeing the thread on a comp (pictures hidden on the phone) I must admit that it's very likely those guys use the cheapest dhl parcel they can fit the thing into

[Monkeh]

Let's just rivet some sheets of aluminium together and call it an enclosure.

Yikes.

[mrpackethead]

Let's just rivet some sheets of aluminium together and call it an enclosure.

Yikes.

I am told by some folks who have machines that the newer ones are better.  Fingers crossed. 

[mrpackethead]

Still waiting.. teh tracking doe'snt indicate that its even left germany yet. :-( this has put a real dampner on things.

[tautech]

Still waiting.. teh tracking doe'snt indicate that its even left germany yet. :-( this has put a real dampner on things.

Do check your tracking again as some freighter companies that I deal with will not release for shipment from country of origin until you provide your paperwork and import details. FedEx regularly do this for my stuff from Shenzhen.
Keep a close eye on things several times/day.   

[mrpackethead]

Still waiting.. teh tracking doe'snt indicate that its even left germany yet. :-( this has put a real dampner on things.

Do check your tracking again as some freighter companies that I deal with will not release for shipment from country of origin until you provide your paperwork and import details. FedEx regularly do this for my stuff from Shenzhen.
Keep a close eye on things several times/day.   

I Have multiple imports / exports weekly and I've never experienced that with Fedex.   Your situation may be different.     In this case the issue is that the sender choose to send it via what is effectively just airmail..      The promise was that it woudl be delivered within a week.  As of a couple of minutes ago the unit looked like it was in germany.    DHL express can't help me, its nothing to do with them..    ( they are pretty good normally ).. 

[mrpackethead]

4 October: Its arrived.  The trackign still says its in germany..  Its come in without passign through customs, and me having to pay GST, which is very bizzare, as it worth well in excess of the GST threshold.   

[Monkeh]

4 October: Its arrived.  The trackign still says its in germany..  Its come in without passign through customs, and me having to pay GST, which is very bizzare, as it worth well in excess of the GST threshold.

Or they looked inside and thought better of it.

Oh, you're posting from the future.. Time for DST change #3 of 4 per year..

[Towger]

Does it have a CE mark?

[mrpackethead]

Does it have a CE mark?

No CE Mark.   yes it does have a CE mark. On teh back. I missed it at first.

[mrpackethead]

Photos below.

THe overall construction of this thing is a bit rough.. There are rough edges on some of metal work and its been held togehter with pop rivits and very light gague aluminum right angles..     I'm not that happy with the way the power supply is stuck on the back.. thats pretty dubious and i'm pretty sure won't comply with code.  I'll need to add some extra covers or something before this goes into the workshop, least the OSH guys come and get me..  It did test out safely on teh PAT tester. The wiring on teh microswitch is "meh" as well.    The tray inside is rough. bolts that are hung together with washers as standoffs.   It was warped when i got it so it didtn sit flat.  The electonics appear to be just a off the shelf temp processor controller.. I'll do a tear down in the Style of EEV blog dave when i get a chance.     
As a machine that cost 2000 Euro, i think its built quality is sub-par. Its certainly not what you'd expect out of Germany, and I feel like its more like back street Donggaung.

However.....

So, i grabed a smallish pcb, that has a particulaly difficult component on it, avery large inductor.   That has proved to be difficult to process in the past without burning the board.        Followed the instructions,  and "deepfryed" my board..  12-15 minutes later it was done.     And done exceptionally well.
Im using Henkel GC10 paste.. The joint quality is superb, the board shows no sign of overheating damage and this large inductor is perfectly reflowed.  Theres no flux left of the board, it was super clean.

Little concerned that during the cooking process there was some vapour escaping the tank.. The lid does'nt appear to be a tight seal.  Its actualy a bit curved.  I put some weights on the top of the lid and that solved this.

Very quick summary of intial use,

- This is still a Beta project. It needs finishing. its got the legs of being awesome, and its a few little and easy things that need sorting out.
- the process works exceptionally well.
- the process is actually a LOT simpler that many would like you to belive. and if you wanted to make your own, you certainly could.  The new wave of toaster ovens?



 

[KL27x]

Heh. I was criticized before for calling this a fancy vegetable steamer.

You need a metal enclosure with a top that allows hot vapors to recondense and fall back in. And a thermostatic control to keep the thing from pushing too much vapor too fast, to keep most of it in the thing. Not rocket science, at all. The hard part is the construction and figuring out the right order of magnitude for your starting point on the power.

700 Euros sound completely reasonable, simply because the thing is big and heavy, and it's small demand, semi-custom production.

[mrpackethead]

Heh. I was criticized before for calling this a fancy vegetable steamer.

You need a metal enclosure with a top that allows hot vapors to recondense and fall back in. And a thermostatic control to keep the thing from pushing too much vapor too fast, to keep most of it in the thing. Not rocket science, at all.

700 Euros sound completely reasonable, simply because the thing is big and heavy, and it's small demand, semi-custom production.

Only that this was 2000Euro.  and the that did not include the freight, and its not that heavy.     But your not far off the truth. Theres not much to this. 2nd board processed, and i'm totally sold on the process its just amazing.

[KL27x]

2000 euros... nice.

I have a very nice product for small scale electronics manufactures, homebrewers. I will keep that margin in mind, if it ever gets anywhere. Seems like I just don't ever have the time. This one is very inexpensive to make and it's pretty SMALL. So I have high hopes.

[tautech]

Heh. I was criticized before for calling this a fancy vegetable steamer.

You need a metal enclosure with a top that allows hot vapors to recondense and fall back in. And a thermostatic control to keep the thing from pushing too much vapor too fast, to keep most of it in the thing. Not rocket science, at all.

700 Euros sound completely reasonable, simply because the thing is big and heavy, and it's small demand, semi-custom production.

Only that this was 2000Euro.  and the that did not include the freight, and its not that heavy.     But your not far off the truth. Theres not much to this. 2nd board processed, and i'm totally sold on the process its just amazing.

Was Galden supplied or did you have some on hand?

C'mon where's the finished PCB pics. 

[mrpackethead]

..Was Galden supplied or did you have some on hand?

I got 1000ml with it, but will order some more from Hawker Richardson.

[mrpackethead]

So, i've run 12 boards through the System today...   

The quality of the soldering is remarkable. I'm getting exceptionally clean, very well formed, joints. I'm not getting some of the issues i used to get in the Convection oven.   I've been able to do some pretty big chunky inductors next to some 0402 parts and get very consistent joints.  From that perspective this is a wonderful result. 

My galden, clearly needs cleanin now, its looking quite dirty..

However;

(1) the lid microswitch broke.. its extremely delicate.  this part is not intended for this kidn of application.     I've replaced it with something more heavy duty..

(2) the lid itself is not flat and it was not sealign properly.. Galden was escaping...  I've been able to reoslve this with a bit of silicon gasket seal. and i put a couple of blocks of aluminum on the lid to way it down.   That really helped.

(3) The mesh tray , is not that great, its not going to last, i can see its' alrady going to fall apart.

(4) Double sided was interesting, there is no provided way of dign this.. I can see i'm going to have to make somethign with some tooling holes etc to support the boards.

(5) The cooling is just way too slow.  This really lets it down.. blowing room temp air past the tank is not that effective.  And it takes too long.  THis really needs to be thought about a bit more effectively..

So, does VP work well. Yes, its wonderful,    it should bSo simple for most folks to use and its a sensible alternative to toaster ovens.  You'll get really good joints, without overheating.. 

Would i recomend this machien for any commerical process as it sits..    No.     Does it have the framework of somethign that coudl be. Yes. It just needs a bit more refinement.   I think its probalby like the first 3d printers.

[tautech]

From the Vapor phase thread Sean talked of a cooling method in this post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/vapour-phase-soldering/msg592042/#msg592042

free_electron too:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/vapour-phase-soldering/msg592131/#msg592131

Galden contamination was first discussed here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/vapour-phase-soldering/msg592189/#msg592189

[mrpackethead]

On the "loss" of galden,

I have processed 25 panels in the machine.. I put 500mL of Galden in it, to start with which put it up to about 3.5m in the tank..    after processing the 25 panels, i've needed to add 100ml of addtional fluid to bring it back to close to that level.

I've been doing some reading, and i suspect that Galden coudl be quite hydroscopic, so some of the "vapour" i saw escaping was not actually galden, but plain old steam.     This is reinforced by the fact that after a couple of cycles on a day, there was no escaping vapour.     However the next day ( after a 12 hour cold state ),  the first run i got, it was steam again..  i suspect it sucks some water vapour in...   

My best bet on the loss is actually that some of the fluid is condencing on the boards them selves, and i'm taking it out of the tank, on the boards themselves.  Much of this i think could be solved by a tented lid, as quite a bit of it, is drops forming on the lid condensing and dropping back on my panels.

The process time is slow.. With two panels running in the machine, my cycle time was between 25 and 29 minutes..   Most of it, with the materials stting under 80C,  so its not damaging them, but its too hot to touch...

After a weeks use, i'm 100% sold on the process,  this implementation is just poor and needs work

[wraper]

After using it for about 8 months, I came to the conclusion. Controller needs to be reprogrammed if possible, or replaced. Otherwise using it happens to be quiet troublesome. All controller does, is switches off the heating once PCBs are reflowed, an all of the time before that, it heats with the max possible power, therefore a huge issue arises. The freaking component tombstoning, the main concern with vapor phase soldering happening because of the too rapid temperature rise, and which wasn't taken into account while designing this oven. On many panels, I need to rework as much as 2-3% of the SMD components, and that after tweaking solder paste amount. Perfect panels are lucky exceptions. I found a workaround, once it reaches around 60^oC on the display, turn it off, wait like 5 minutes, switch it on again (displayed temp will be >100^oC), and turn on the cycle. More likely than not, reflowed panel will be perfect. So by avoiding such rapid rise of the temperature, and ensuring that boards get preheated, the issue is mostly eliminated. So to properly to fix the issue, oven needs to regulate heating speed by itself, not me running circles around it.

[wraper]

Another issue is galden condensating on the lid, and then dropping on the board, making it covered in galden. I wipe the lid before every reflow, but the issue still exists, although reduced. Now every few reflows I'm covering the lid with a silicone release spray, which prevents large drops from forming. Therefore they usually stay on the lid without dropping, but still not perfect. So I think that some descend need to be made, to ensure galden flowing to the side, where it can safely drop, and not staying on the lid waiting to drop in the middle.

[mrpackethead]

Yes, hugely dissapoitning that it works this way.   Its not good that it does work this way.  Though a small amount of work will fix this, and make it work.
Disscussed this with marc, and he is working on somethign. but i dont' have time to do that.

[wraper]

I can officially confirm that a man who designed this oven is a retard. Not only all of the logic is made on 3 relays + 3x 2N930 in TO-18 for some stupid reason, controller basically only shows the temperature, and changes output state once set temperature is reached. But he also put 230V mains voltage between 2 pins of the 2.5 mm pin pitch connector,  with very large annular rings used.

[wraper]

Turns out that temperature controller is a dangerous piece of crap as well. All would be fine and dandy except in one place there is less than 1mm between primary and secondary side  .

[ovnr]

Haha, that's atrocious.

Out of curiosity, how does the vapor phase reflow process deal with flux? I imagine some of the vapor condenses on the boards - does it mix with the liquid flux and cause a mess? Do the boards come out cleaner than after a normal reflow oven cycle?

I wouldn't mind having an unit, but €2000 is so hilariously much more expensive than a €30 toaster oven that I'm not even considering it. Especially when the toaster oven is better made.

[wraper]

Haha, that's atrocious.

Out of curiosity, how does the vapor phase reflow process deal with flux? I imagine some of the vapor condenses on the boards - does it mix with the liquid flux and cause a mess? Do the boards come out cleaner than after a normal reflow oven cycle?

Some flux is left on the board, the rest of it goes away with Galden and condensates on the walls. No mess on the board. My oven is smaller one, so I paid around EUR 700, for EUR 2000 (bigger version) it would be extremely insane. Here is my own bare bones controller I slapped together (based on the board completely not meant for this  ). Spent a lot of time to tune the thing because RTD sensor is located extremely bad so don't represent actual temp on the board reflowed.

[Koen]

I wouldn't mind having an unit, but €2000 is so hilariously much more expensive than a €30 toaster oven that I'm not even considering it. Especially when the toaster oven is better made.

I use vapour phase to avoid problems with thin plastic connectors and only bought a 20€ "asparagus cooking pot", 100ml of Galden and a thermometer. It made my life much easier than the oven.

[wraper]

much more expensive than a €30 toaster oven that I'm not even considering it. Especially when the toaster oven is better made.

Toaster oven does not work well for large boards, and completely sucks for panels. It will have problems to reflow some areas while other areas will be already overheated. And if there are some connectors with high thermal mass and shiny surface, which will reflect IR, like HDMI, it is a guaranteed disaster.

[mrpackethead]

Haha, that's atrocious.

Out of curiosity, how does the vapor phase reflow process deal with flux? I imagine some of the vapor condenses on the boards - does it mix with the liquid flux and cause a mess? Do the boards come out cleaner than after a normal reflow oven cycle?

The boards come out extremely clean.  and you have very well formed solder joints.  Far superior to what you'll get in a toaster oven.   Its easier to get more consistent results...  However this is let down by;

(a) extremely poor build quality - both design and implmentation. theres multiple safety issues.
(b) the lack of adhering to a profile. 
(c) the lack of a 'tented lid.
(d) the lack of proper rails to hold panels..

I wouldn't mind having an unit, but €2000 is so hilariously much more expensive than a €30 toaster oven that I'm not even considering it. Especially when the toaster oven is better made.

Realisitcally  what i have is worth about 300 Euro..

[wraper]

So I reflowed a few panels with my new crappy controller installed and here are results. Tombstoning reduced to minumum, almost none, probably could reduce to zero with finer tuning. Even if solder paste was applied with a big offset, completely no solder bridges on 0.5mm pin pitch components  , unlike before. SMD parts which were not precisely placed better align to the pads, and solder joints look a tad better too. Less Galden escaping while reflowing and condensating on the lid. And that's with just a crappy controller I started making yesterday evening. I don't even have a schematic of what I made, just slapped some parts together and wrote a very simple firmware, $2 worth of parts. Stupid IMDES, could not make such a simple thing.

[tautech]

So I reflowed a few panels with my new crappy controller installed and here are results. Tombstoning reduced to minumum, almost none, probably could reduce to zero with finer tuning. Even if solder paste was applied with a big offset, completely no solder bridges on 0.5mm pin pitch components  , unlike before. SMD parts which were not precisely placed better align to the pads, and solder joints look a tad better too. Less Galden escaping while reflowing and condensating on the lid. And that's with just a crappy controller I started making yesterday evening. I don't even have a schematic of what I made, just slapped some parts together and wrote a very simple firmware, $2 worth of parts. Stupid IMDES, could not make such a simple thing.

Controller schematic by wraper......

[mrpackethead]

So I reflowed a few panels with my new crappy controller installed and here are results. Tombstoning reduced to minumum, almost none, probably could reduce to zero with finer tuning. Even if solder paste was applied with a big offset, completely no solder bridges on 0.5mm pin pitch components  , unlike before. SMD parts which were not precisely placed better align to the pads, and solder joints look a tad better too. Less Galden escaping while reflowing and condensating on the lid. And that's with just a crappy controller I started making yesterday evening. I don't even have a schematic of what I made, just slapped some parts together and wrote a very simple firmware, $2 worth of parts. Stupid IMDES, could not make such a simple thing.

Any chance of sharing the schemactic .. Im curious how you did it for $2.   My solution was more like $30

[wraper]

So I reflowed a few panels with my new crappy controller installed and here are results. Tombstoning reduced to minumum, almost none, probably could reduce to zero with finer tuning. Even if solder paste was applied with a big offset, completely no solder bridges on 0.5mm pin pitch components  , unlike before. SMD parts which were not precisely placed better align to the pads, and solder joints look a tad better too. Less Galden escaping while reflowing and condensating on the lid. And that's with just a crappy controller I started making yesterday evening. I don't even have a schematic of what I made, just slapped some parts together and wrote a very simple firmware, $2 worth of parts. Stupid IMDES, could not make such a simple thing.

Any chance of sharing the schemactic .. Im curious how you did it for $2.   My solution was more like $30

Well, I will need to draw it first, as there is none. If buying everything in single quantities, likely would be more like $3 in parts. Also firmware is not something of release quality  . MCU is Silicon Labs EFM8UB10F16G-C-QFN28 (even has USB, 0.5mm pin pitch), could throw in 4-8KB flash BB series instead of UB, would be cheaper (like $0.5 @ single quantity). I somewhat doubt you have programming tools for it. So I don't know if it's worth to bother to draw the schematic. Except that 2x P-channel mosfets + 2X NPN BJT to make high side 12V driver for Fans and heater relay. 78L05, cheap opamp and some resistors.

[Monkeh]

I somewhat doubt you have programming tools for it.

EFM8UB1x comes with a USB bootloader in rev C or higher, starting beginning of 2016. Most other EFM8s come with UART bootloaders. No special tools required unless you want debugging - IDE and Keil license are free.

[wraper]

I somewhat doubt you have programming tools for it.

EFM8UB1x comes with a USB bootloader in rev C or higher, starting beginning of 2016. Most other EFM8s come with UART bootloaders. No special tools required unless you want debugging - IDE and Keil license are free.

That's true, but yes, you must get 2016 week 1 or newer (mine was not), farnell has new date code (I bought hundreds of them recently, use old chips without bootloader capability for crap like this), RS stocks old B revision. For BB or others with UART bootloader, firmware would need a little bit of modification though.

[mrpackethead]

How are you interfacing the thermocouple to the microcontroller

[wraper]

How are you interfacing the thermocouple to the microcontroller

It is PT100 RTD, opamp + few resistors.

[wraper]

RTD position was lowered by about 5mm but it still reads lower than temp on the PCB, and there is significant inertia. Right now it works like this (PID would be useless in this case):
1. Start heating
2. Once reached 80^oC, stop heating, wait 25s (after this PCB will be about 150-160^oC hot)
3. Heat 14s, likely a little bit more would be better, like 18s.
4. Stop heating, wait 25s (after this PCB will be about 180-190^oC hot)
5. Start heating
6. Once 195^oC is reached, stop heating and turn on cooling.

[wraper]

For larger oven those figures likely need to be somewhat different.

[mrpackethead]

For larger oven those figures likely need to be somewhat different.

I suspect that the the figures will vary significnatly between the boards you put in depedning on what you are soldering.  For the boards i made that had a lot of large inductors, both the ramp up and ramp down times where much longer than if i just put in a small board with a few small passives.

[mrpackethead]

Hi Wrapper,

I'm not at work, was just wondering was the RTD wired with 2 wires, or 3 wires ( for compenstation )

Just working on something useful now..  Debating if i should use a couple of Triacs with Zero Cross for the heating / cooling rather than the relays.

[wraper]

For larger oven those figures likely need to be somewhat different.

I suspect that the the figures will vary significnatly between the boards you put in depedning on what you are soldering.  For the boards i made that had a lot of large inductors, both the ramp up and ramp down times where much longer than if i just put in a small board with a few small passives.

I tried small board and 16x20 cm panel with a lot of ground plane, was pretty close. Vapor phase has big thermal capacity, after all. Adjusting heating on the go does not seem to be possible (at least with given temp sensor location). As once temperature started to rise (when you are above those 80^oC) it's already too late to stop the heating. Solder paste will already melt instead of soak which was intended. For example, if you stop heating at 90-100^oC, then board will just reflow by inertia.

[wraper]

Hi Wrapper,

I'm not at work, was just wondering was the RTD wired with 2 wires, or 3 wires ( for compenstation )

Just working on something useful now..  Debating if i should use a couple of Triacs with Zero Cross for the heating / cooling rather than the relays.

RTD has 2 wires. Unless you want to completely rip the thing apart, you should stay with relay located on the bottom of the oven. At least mine was completely not disassembly friendly. Those nasty pop rivets  , even that relay pcb is attached with them. Also to take old logic board out, I needed to cut one screw  . It was not possible to hold it from the back, and it just rotated together with a nut. So atrocious construction. Fans are 12 volt, need to be driven at high side (I used MOSFET) if you don't want to rip it apart as well.

[wraper]

2. Once reached 80^oC, stop heating, wait 25s (after this PCB will be about 150-160^oC hot)
3. Heat 14s, likely a little bit more would be better, like 18s.

After some thinking, I think it should be possible to adjust heating time here based on the temperature rise after those 25 seconds of not heating. Edit: or extend total soak time, reduce pause time to, say, 20s (time after which temperature stabilizes). Reduce heating time too. And add one more heating and pause segment. Make heating time dependent on the temp previously reached.

[mrpackethead]

 uRGH.  i've Just taken the bottom grill of the machine, and just about had kittens.

This machine is Electricaly unsafe in many regards and i will need to do a substanital amount of work to make it safe.    There are crimp rings where there is threads of live cable showing.  There are cables goign through metal openings with no glands.

THis is disssapointing. With a little more care this machine could be so much better.

DO NOT OPERATE THIS MACHINE WITHOUT A RCD/GFCI at a minimum, better still open it up and visually check.

[wraper]

I've seen the wiring on the bottom. I broke away plastic cover which was covering most of the wiring even before attaching the new controller. Dunno if it is as bad as yours. But to dig in further, I would need to basically destroy the oven because of those stupid pop rivets. Maybe your larger oven have more access space to everything.

[Spikee]

I bought one of the early imdes units, Talked with mark on the phone for a moment since I needed the machine fast
and after I told him what I do he mentioned that he might contact me in the future to re-do the controller design + firmware.
Have not heard of him after

[mrpackethead]

Marc is quite unwell at the moment, hes having chemo treatment for cancer.

He has offered me a replacement machine, many of the issues from the older machiens have been resolved.   They dont' have a new controller, and i've offered to give him the schematics / design / code for the controller i'm putting together now.

[mrpackethead]

An update for you..

Removing the perferated grid from the bottom really assists with airflow on the cool down.  Needed to raise it up so theres a good solid 50-100mm there so its not being restricted.  The current setup with it sitting just 15mm and then the grid. makes it really tough to get cooling at a sensible rate.

[mrpackethead]

so, i am going to do a bit of messing with this..  Decided easiest way to make it work will be to make a small board that i can jumper to a Development board.  I'll probably use a PIC32 Development board as i'm familar with that and i want to add ethernet connectivity to it.   A web UI will be easy to use and setup..

If this works well, then i'll jump to the next phase and create a complete custom assmebly.

Decided i'd ditch the AC relay, in favour of a 30A Solid State relay..  I'll  switch the fans with a Fet, which also means i can PWM them if i want..   Small Op Amp to deal with the sensor and buffer it to the uP's ADC.

The quality of VP soldering is awesome, its just a pity that IDMES did'tn "finish" their product. A little bit more work and it would have put it in a whole differnet leauge.   

[RolfNoot]

I was just looking for vapour phase soldering and noticed this machine. Good to see this comes within reach for most of us.

I was thinking to buy the device but right now it's priced 1500 euro ex VAT!! Regarding the crappy build and pour process control, is it worth buying this machine?

I'm willing to spend some time on the machine, rework some of the parts and build another controller.

Would this machine be a good starting point? There are also professional used machines at eBay for around 5000 usd. Some also use aspagagus cookers...
 
Comments appreciated!

[wraper]

I was thinking to buy the device but right now it's priced 1500 euro ex VAT!! Regarding the crappy build and pour process control, is it worth buying this machine?

Unless you want to modify it, no way. But if you do, you could as well just attach heater to Horeca stainless steel pan what this oven exactly is and save 90% of the price. Even overheat protection is non functional in this piece of crap, although there is a thermal fuse. The problem is how it is mounted. Had a chance to test when I forgot there was no galden in the oven, that was some spectacular experience. I had a piece of charcoal instead of PCB and burning smell in a room for more than a month. Controller had no way to detect there was so much heat in the middle (basically grill) because of how temperature sensor is mounted.

[Koen]

Some also use aspagagus cookers...

And I'm very happy with it. This was a god-sent for my FPC connectors. A year or so in and I've only added a cheap AliExpress thermo-controller to automate it. Not a single issue, it's wonderful.

[mrpackethead]

I would say avoid dealing with these guys, they just dont' get it.   Its not safe, its not well built. its a shame because he actually was onto somethign with the concept.

I love what you can do with Vapour Phase its awesome.  What i'm litterally in the process of doign is building a four tank set up so i can get some volume going on production.   My PNP line ends up stopoing because i can't get the boards through cook fast enough. :-)

I'm making some tanks from Flat folded stainless steel.

[WaldMaker]

I own a mini-condens_it since 2 years and at first I also was impressed by the solder results.

But after soldering half a dozen pcbs with 50 WS2812 LEDs and 50 0603 Caps each I think the machine does not stick to the recommended reflow temperature curve.

More than 5 LEDs on each board either didn't work at all or some color is missing. Using a USB microscope the LEDs show cracks in their clear "window". Reworking LEDs is a pain...

On each board at least 2 Caps tombstoned.

As already mentioned by others the preheat phase seems to be far too steep.  And the cooling is probably too slow. Pro machines cool with water, so there must be a reason for doing so.

So those who get working results are probably lucky that their parts survived the ride on the wrong temperature curve.

A known reason for the cracking LEDS is their moisture sensitivity and I had the LEDs out of the sealed bag for more than 24 hours. So for the next boards I bought a small pizza oven that can hold 60-70° and I will prebake the LEDS according to the manufacturers specs.

Does anyone have experience with soldering LEDS in the IMDES machine?

[wraper]

As already mentioned by others the preheat phase seems to be far too steep.

There is no preheat phase. It just heats the full power which in addition to too rapid heating and tombstoning causes excessive galden evaporation. Therefore more galden escapes each reflow and cooling becomes slower than it could be.

A known reason for the cracking LEDS is their moisture sensitivity and I had the LEDs out of the sealed bag for more than 24 hours.

Was it moisture barrier bag with desiccant and humidity indicator?

[WaldMaker]

Was it moisture barrier bag with desiccant and humidity indicator?

The bag from World-Semi had 2 silica gel bags. But I had the LEDs out of the bag for weeks @ 45 to 60% humidity and did not prebake them at that time.

Before I ruin any of my new prototype PCBs I want to try to measure the temperature curve. I started the develop an arduino mega256 / Gameduino based  controller before I bought the IMDES fryer. It contains 4 K thermocouples so I can measure the temperature curves at different heights in the tub. But I have to figure out how to seal the lid with the four thermocouple wires and how to attach the tip of the thermocouple to a test PCB.

BTW: Here are two links that could be interesting:

http://blundell.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/IBL-Presentation-2017.pdf

On page 51 they show their patented process of moving the PCB in the vapor.
They also preheat the PCB with IR before lowering it into the vapor cloud.


WOW! look at this: http://blundell.co.uk/product/vp-mini-jumbo-prototype-vapour-phase-reflow/

They (Blundell) just put a tape over the IMDES Logo on the temperature Controlbox 
Hopefully the security flaws are fixed.

[WaldMaker]

Hi,

I finally managed to plot a reflow cycle of my IMDES fryer.

The screenshot is from my controller I am trying to develop to control the process better than the simple temperature trigger the machine comes with.

The upper curve is the rate. +/-5°C/sec.  Time measured in seconds.

The reflow graphic in the background displays the suggested reflow curve. You can see the values Time and Rate at the top.

The measured temperature tops off @ 230 as I am using Galden 230, so the value is quite reliable.

See and judge for yourself. The drop out @ 330 was probably a drop of "cold" Galden that hit my sensor.

After another 450 seconds the temperature was still 52° C.

tL measured was 42 seconds. The tL 55 was the suggested value.

[wraper]

WaldMaker, yes, preheat will be slow without serious mods like adding IR heater on the top, no way around it. As starting point you can use profile what I made with my crude controller https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/mini-blog-imdes-vapour-phase-purchase/msg1104140/#msg1104140. I still use it like this and it works pretty well. You can forget about trying implementing PID as it won't work in this case. What could seriously improve control process is changing temperature sensor and it's position. Using 2 sensors at different heights might be a good idea as well. If your temperature plot is from usual sensor with standard position, you should know it's readings are barely relevant to what PCB experiences because of very bad placement. I would suggest attaching a thin thermocouple to PCB while creating reflow profile.

[WaldMaker]

wraper,
thank you for your remarks.

I did not use the built-in RTD but used one (Thermocouple Type-K Glass Braid Insulated) with a very small tip connected to a typical PCB with capton tape right in the center of the standard hole plate. So it measured something like a 0.8mm connector close to a PCB pad.

I also think the hole plate could be responsible for the very slow cool down. If you look at professional machines they use a coarse wire mesh, or even hold the PCB by its edges and some move the PCB out of the vicinity of the hot Galden pool.

As my Arduino 2560 /FT811 based controller project contains 8 MAX31856 thermocouple sensors I intend to measure the temperature curves at different heights and locations within the vessel.

The depth of the machine (150mm) is IMHO also too small and leads to vapor rising too high.

Some professional machines use a kind of gate to "close" the vapor filled chamber.

I also added a 4 relays board, a stepper controller (tic T834) and a PWM RC Servo controller plus SD Card.

So I am able to add and control an IR preheater (maybe a temperature controlled PCB rework heater?) and an additional fluid (water?) based cooler.
The servos are for an optional gate and a lid lock and the stepper is for an optional PCB elevator.

But before I go so far I think I will try to adapt your interrupted heating with a kind of self-learning algorithm one of those pizza-oven-reflow-controllers uses.

It turns off the heater after a certain time and or temperature and then measures the overshoot. As mentioned in an other post the behavior is certainly depending on the thermal properties of the PCB and its components. So I will test with and without a typical populate PCB.

[wraper]

I also think the hole plate could be responsible for the very slow cool down. If you look at professional machines they use a coarse wire mesh, or even hold the PCB by its edges and some move the PCB out of the vicinity of the hot Galden pool.

My (likely older) oven came with wire mesh plate which should have lower thermal mass. It's a piece of crap, standoff legs are bolted directly into this mesh. Because mesh is soft, this thing bends even if you look at it funny.

[mrpackethead]

some thin copper tube (i used 4mm ) bent into a coil that runs around the bottom of the tank, with water flowin thorugh it, worked very well for me to bring the temp down significantly quicker.    Make sure that you run it open,  so if you do create steam,  its got a place to go.   ( dont' run a sealed closed loop ). I was recirculating my water with an aquarium pump,  and getting a 10C rise or so, when the vapour was at max temp.

[WaldMaker]

some thin copper tube (i used 4mm ) bent into a coil that runs around the bottom of the tank,....
I was recirculating my water with an aquarium pump,  and getting a 10C rise or so, when the vapour was at max temp.

Could you please explain the coil position a bit more?

coil = single loop of tube or more?

coming in and out at the same side of the tank or up through the lid?

Bottom = above Galden fluid? How far above ?

around = close to the tank walls ?  How close to wall and the PCB?

recirculating  = running all the time, also when Galden is heated?

How much water do you keep in your water reservoir?

If you cool during vapour is present does the cooling create more thermodynamic movement of the vapour cloud?

I ask this because now the vapour rises up to the lid and condensates on the lid and creates bigger drops of fluid Galden. If the running cooler coil creates a kind of vapour circulation up in the center and down near the walls maybe less would reach the lid?

[mrpackethead]

some thin copper tube (i used 4mm ) bent into a coil that runs around the bottom of the tank,....
I was recirculating my water with an aquarium pump,  and getting a 10C rise or so, when the vapour was at max temp.

>Could you please explain the coil position a bit more?
 
i set it up so it was largely hard up against the sides of the tank. the first few coils sit in the galden. with the remaining ones ( another 6 ) above the cold vapour level.

>coil = single loop of tube or more?

Eight coils stacked on stop of each other.

>coming in and out at the same side of the tank or up through the lid?

I drilled holes in the side of the tank and used some silcone grommets to get a nice fit so it seals nicely around the copper tube.  i have got it coming in and out in the same corner.   

>Bottom = above Galden fluid? How far above ?

Bottom is in the galden () when its cold

>around = close to the tank walls ?  How close to wall and the PCB?

I made it so its sitting hard up against the sides of the tank. Because the tank is slightly tapered it ends up sitting in there without any need for any additional supports etc.

>recirculating  = running all the time, also when Galden is heated?

Just when its cooling.   I picked up control from the exisiting fans.

>How much water do you keep in your water reservoir?

I have about 100L. Its the same tank i use for cooling my laser cutter.     After a few cycles its got a little bit warmer but not crazy warm.   perhaps risen to 30C, from 20C.

>If you cool during vapour is present does the cooling create more thermodynamic movement of the vapour cloud?

I'm not sure I udnerstand your question.      I certainly do make a differnerence in terms of cooling it quicker.  it goes back to just a few minutes, rather than 10-12


>I ask this because now the vapour rises up to the lid and condensates on the lid and creates bigger drops of fluid Galden. If the running cooler coil creates a kind of vapour circulation up in the center and >down near the walls maybe less would reach the lid?

I've done hundreds of cycles in mine, and I'm only loosign very small amounts of galden.  So its not getting out of the tank.  Possibly a bit is left on PCBs.     We are only taking 1-2ml each cycle.    I've not had to add much extra fluid at all.   Somethign to be aware of is that when you first use it after a while is that yo'll likely get quite a lot of steam ( water vapour ) coming off, as the galden is quite hydropscopic. So while you think that you'r loosing galden out the sides, its actulaly only steam.       


I woudl be very keen to collaborate with you on improving this. The IMDES is the right idea. the impmleneation is just terrible.

[WaldMaker]

>Could you please explain the coil position a bit more?
 
i set it up so it was largely hard up against the sides of the tank. the first few coils sit in the galden. with the remaining ones ( another 6 ) above the cold vapour level.

Doesn't the water in the coils start boiling when they sit in the hot Galden?
As you said, the circulation pump is only on when the cooler fans are on.

Most commercial machines have some kind of cooling apparatus at the top part of the tank to produce a condensation zone so that hot vapor does not reach the lid and to form a preheat and cool down zone for those machine that lower the PCB down into the vapor.

Some videos show inline systems where the PCB conveyor runs open above the tank.

In my IMDES machine I observe a kind of vapor "storm" in the tank during the second half of the process time which reaches the lid and leads to several thick drops of Galden.
 
So I think my first "enhancement" will be adding a cooling pipe around the top and see if one can create a "hot tub" of steadily present vapor into which we lower the PCB.
Having built a DIY SMD pick and place machine and 3D printer using a micro-stepped stepper and a belt or spindle drive you can create a very soft running PCB elevator. Problem is how to get through the lid. If we keep the vapor cloud down in the tank then the "danger" of loosing Galden through some kind of pass through is negligible.

I also am enhancing my TC arrangement by using high temperature (295°) solder to fix the TCs to specific solder pads with components attached to be able to best possible measure the temperature profile.
 

I would be very keen to collaborate with you on improving this. The IMDES is the right idea. the implementation is just terrible.

Yes, the direction IMDES shows is right and proves that VPS can be successfully implemented on a low cost level.

I believe it can be improved economically with a bit more sophisticated control, better cooling and some mechanical enhancements.

Therefore I hope this thread can bring ideas and experience together.

[mrpackethead]

Doesn't the water in the coils start boiling when they sit in the hot Galden?
As you said, the circulation pump is only on when the cooler fans are on.

yes, it did.  I had a bit of hotwater, and then a small amoutn of steam.   This is why its really important to have an 'open' end to your pipe, so that if it does boil it has somwhere to go.
what i did to get aroudn this,  ( and i need to get a soliendoi in the mix ), was put my water pump higher than the coil, and put a one way valve on its output.  ( more on that later ).. I also needed to put a "T" in the pipe that i coudl open or close to the environment ).   

When the pump stops, water stops flowing, but it does stay in the pipe because its working against the vacumn that forms after the one way valve.     By opening the pipe to 'the' air, it 'dumps' the rest of the water out. ( its gravity feed ), and so it just free flows out.    Its a bit of a struggle for the water to get out of the coils. I'm thinking that you might consider blowing air in to empty it. but thats yet another improvement.   Because the pump is NOT self priming if you just stop it, and its above the water level of what its pumping it will empty out and then wont' work again.

<quote>
Most commercial machines have some kind of cooling apparatus at the top part of the tank to produce a condensation zone so that hot vapor does not reach the lid and to form a preheat and cool down zone for those machine that lower the PCB down into the vapor.
</quote>

yes, but remember they are continous systems. they never fully cool the galden back to liquid.   ( this woudl be MUCH MUCH faster as the boards only need to be in the galden for a much shorter period. For the low volume stuff, this is not nearly as much of a problme.


<quote>
In my IMDES machine I observe a kind of vapor "storm" in the tank during the second half of the process time which reaches the lid and leads to several thick drops of Galden.
</quote>
That has been an issue for me, but not somethign that particyully is of concern, I've done a lot of boards, and i'm not really loosing any.  Arguably a better shaped lid that has a ridge line might be better, so the galden rolls of the lid aback into the tank

<quote>
So I think my first "enhancement" will be adding a cooling pipe around the top and see if one can create a "hot tub" of steadily present vapor into which we lower the PCB.
</quote>
That will be really interesting to see how it goes.  Its a BIG step in complexity though.