New Beeprog 2 disappointment

[costas]

Hello,
 Half of year passed since I made an upgrade on the ELNEC program. I have renounced at the old LabProg 48LV (firstly bought) and I bought the Beeprog 2C from the same producer. I was very disappointed by the acquisition.  I expected that the new product will continue the job done by the old one without new charges.  I was surpised to find out that in order to access a memory type whcic has 10-15 years i have to buy an specialized adaptor which cost about 10-20% of the program.  Moreover, for a lot of integrated circuits you have to buy 2 adaptors.  Also, for  some serial flash with 8 pins you have to buy adaptors- it works witout on    Seeprog but you have to buy one with Beeprog 2C.
I belive that the new market policy of ELNEC is not correct towards the clients:
1. when you buy the program you are not aware of the new  business strategy;
2. The cost on the new adaptor is very high compared with the program (between 10-30% of the program value).
3. The trend is that for every memory you need  to buy special adapter for any software uprgrade;  you are surprised to read you can not access  the same memory acessed  one month before with  the same programmer unless you buy a special adapter;
4. acquisition time is very high. for the last adapter i waited 8 weeks . Using the option "Quick!" 2-5 days (real 7-10 days) has much  higher costs!
5. lack of a minmum  package of specialized adaptors that the programmer can use a "low cost" $ 100;
6. I didn’t find on the ELNEC site a list to present assigned to each adapter the specialized kind of memory that can be accessed, in order to buy the most common adapters instead of the more specialized ones.
Honestly now I'm going to buy me another programmer Although I considered myself a original ELNEC fan for almost 20 years...

The fact is that currently can not use Beeprog 2C than at the level of "ponyprog"  without making an investment  of a few hundred euros ... (I never allowed him to compare with Hobbist site for the Willem Willem I managed to read some of the memories attached list).
Short list :
M25P10V [SOIC8-150]
AT25DF041A [SOIC8-150]
SST39VF3201 [TSOP48]
AT49LV320 [TSOP48]
AT49LH00B4 [PLCC32] 
M50FLW080A [PLCC32]
AM 28/29F200-800 [PSOP44]
I put down  a brief list of some circuit that I have not actually been able to access due to lack of adapters, memory that you have read successfully with old Lab Prog using a universal adapter ( the complete list is very long though).
Believe me that was I placed in embarrassing  situations with the client for which I had to deny or postpone his service on the same equipment that i serviced one year ago! the client does not understand what kind of upgrade I made so that now i can’t serve him!!!. .. (Admit I made the mistake of quickly selling old Lab Prog).
In the short list you will see that it in not about antique memories (i.e. 2716) or memories for extreme tensions. There are actual memories that are used on the market today but were probably produced avout 10 years ago.
As a personal oppinion, to buy an original ELNEC Beeprog is more of a scam than buying a Chinese clone of the product! If you want to buy the program honestly and correctly you are taken as a fool!

In these conditions if i am asked I can make only negative advertise for ELNEC policy and products. 

Costas

[Nukster]

Yes you are right about this....

I just registered here to confirm that Elnec business practice sucks big time.

They are trying to rip-off customers by creating multiple adapters for similar devices.

Example:

With original Beeprog programmer you could use universal TSOP48 adapter (DIL48/TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm (ord.no. 70-0065)) for almost all devices in TSOP48 package.

With Beeprog 2 series they started to divide support for different chips in TSOP48 package to different adapters:

1. DIL48/TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm NAND (ord.no. 70-1105)
2. DIL48/TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm NAND-ONFI (ord.no. 70-1106)
3. DIL48/TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm NAND-2 (ord.no. 70-1453)
4. DIL48/TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm NAND-3 (ord.no. 70-3081)
5. Bottom TSOP48 NOR-1 (ord.no. 70-1227) + Top TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm (ord.no. 70-1228)
6. Bottom TSOP48 NOR-2 (ord.no. 70-1226) + Top TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm (ord.no. 70-1228)
7. Bottom TSOP48 NOR-3 (ord.no. 70-1225) + Top TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm (ord.no. 70-1228)
8. Bottom TSOP48 NOR-4 (ord.no. 70-1224) + Top TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm (ord.no. 70-1228)
9. Bottom TSOP48 NOR-5 (ord.no. 70-1223) + Top TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm (ord.no. 70-1228)
10. Bottom TSOP48 NOR-6 (ord.no. 70-1222) + Top TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm (ord.no. 70-1228)
11. Bottom R-TSOP48 NOR-1 (ord.no. 70-1221) + Top TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm (ord.no. 70-1228)
12. Bottom R-TSOP48 NOR-2 (ord.no. 70-1220) + Top TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm (ord.no. 70-1228)
13. Bottom R-TSOP48 NOR-3 (ord.no. 70-1219) + Top TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm (ord.no. 70-1228)
14. Bottom R-TSOP48 NOR-4 (ord.no. 70-1218) + Top TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm (ord.no. 70-1228)

With Beeprog you had to buy ONE universal adapter and you were able to support all chips in TSOP 48 package, while you need FOURTEEN adapters for the same task with Beeprog 2 !!!!

Please note that these "Special adapters" are technically the same as the universal adapters.

The only difference between these special adapters and the uiniversal adapter is that the "special version" has fewer connected pins with a changed wiring to prevent using the universal one and that the "special version" also contains an EEPROM so the programmer software can identify the adapter and record number of actuations !

The biggest SCAM was when they introduced so called "Turbo Mode" for their programmer software...

Of course you can use turbo mode, but you will have to buy another adabpter (DIL48/TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm NAND-3 (ord.no. 70-3081))

Recently they have also started to charge for ISP programming with a device called "CreditBox" because programmer and adapter sales are not enough to "justify development cost"...

http://www.elnec.com/support/application-notes/html/?file=cb_and_isp

Elnec is using the same method for most of their adapters so I advise everyone to avoid buying Elnec products until they change their business practice !

[amyk]

Now who will be the first to dump the EEPROM contents and figure out how to hack your own adapters on? Bonus points for using the programmer itself for that...

[Fraser]

This sounds like a company wishing to cut its own throat. They must think their customers are stupid ! Customers will likely lose all confidence in the company and move to a different universal programmer platform that does not employ such tactics.

[Nukster]

Now who will be the first to dump the EEPROM contents and figure out how to hack your own adapters on? Bonus points for using the programmer itself for that...

I don't think that would solve the problem because Elnec would fight these "short-term" solutions by inventing new scams.

The only way to solve this issue is not to buy their products in order to force them to rethink their business model.

This sounds like a company wishing to cut its own throat. They must think their customers are stupid ! Customers will likely lose all confidence in the company and move to a different universal programmer platform that does not employ such tactics.

Yes, Elnec guys have developed their own understanding of the term "Universal Programmer" because their programmers are only universal if you have the full collection of "specialized" adapters... LOL !!

If you look at their website with the programming adapter list (http://www.elnec.com/products/programming-adapters), every "specialized" adapter where the number of pins on the "Specialized" socket is less than or equal to the number of pins on the programmer's ZIF socket is a scam just created to rip-off customers.

For Beeprog 2 programmer with 48 pins on the ZIF socket, this means that every "Specialized" adapter with a pin count less than or equal to 48 pins is a scam.

[SArepairman]

these guys sound like serious scumbags 

[free_electron]

what a pile of assturds !

All the more since these elnec machines are rebranded Dataman machines.
They are also sold by BK Precision.

simply download the dataman software or the bk precision software. big chance you can use universal adapters.

[Nukster]

what a pile of assturds !

All the more since these elnec machines are rebranded Dataman machines.
They are also sold by BK Precision.

simply download the dataman software or the bk precision software. big chance you can use universal adapters.

Thanks for the tip but I don't think this will work since the Dataman site for example offers almost exactly the same socket adapters as the Elnec site.

The BK Precision website doesn't list any adapter information at all

I think that Dataman and BK precision are selling rebranded Elnec products because the idea of ripping off customers with useless specialized socket adapters has been developed and brought to perfection by Elnec.

Another fact that points in this direction is that software for Elnec, Dataman and BK Precision programmers is all the same.

I have downloaded all 3 software packages and compared the driver installation inf files:

Code: [Select]

[Strings]
MFR="Elnec"
VolumeLabel = "Pg4u installation CD"
PID_0192.DeviceDesc="BeeProg, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0233.DeviceDesc="SmartProg2, Universal 40-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0342.DeviceDesc="BeeHive4, multiprogramming system"
PID_0355.DeviceDesc="PRO-48, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0469.DeviceDesc="BeeProg+, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0533.DeviceDesc="BeeProg+ Core, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0534.DeviceDesc="BeeProg+, site of multiprogramming system"
PID_0576.DeviceDesc="T51prog2, Specialized 40-pindrive MCS51 programmer"
PID_0577.DeviceDesc="PIKprog2, Specialized 40-pindrive PICmicro programmer"
PID_0578.DeviceDesc="MEMprog2, Specialized 40-pindrive memory programmer"
PID_0579.DeviceDesc="SmartProg2 V4, Universal 40-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0595.DeviceDesc="Remote Control Unit for Stand-Alone Programmers"
PID_1176.DeviceDesc="BeeProg2, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_1179.DeviceDesc="BeeProg2 core, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_1180.DeviceDesc="BeeProg2, site of multiprogramming system"
PID_1200.DeviceDesc="BeeProg3, Universal 64-pindrive Programmer"
PID_1201.DeviceDesc="BeeProg2AP, site of multiprogramming system"
PID_1450.DeviceDesc="BeeProg2AP, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_2312.DeviceDesc="Remote Control Unit V2 for Stand-Alone Programmers"
PID_2339.DeviceDesc="ZIF socket actuation control unit #2"
PID_2365.DeviceDesc="BeeProg2AP-AU, site of multiprogramming system"
PID_2693.DeviceDesc="BeeProg2C, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_2909.DeviceDesc="Credit box"
PID_3078.DeviceDesc="BeeProg3, site of multiprogramming system"

[Strings]
MFR="Dataman Programmers Ltd."
VolumeLabel = "Pg4u installation CD"
PID_0342.DeviceDesc="DATAMAN-448PRO, multiprogramming system"
PID_0192.DeviceDesc="DATAMAN-48PRO, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0233.DeviceDesc="DATAMAN-40PRO, Universal 40-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0355.DeviceDesc="Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0469.DeviceDesc="DATAMAN-48PRO+, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0533.DeviceDesc="DATAMAN-48PRO+ Core, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0534.DeviceDesc="DATAMAN-48PRO+, site of multiprogramming system"
PID_0576.DeviceDesc="DATAMAN-T51pro, Specialized 40-pindrive MCS51 programmer"
PID_0577.DeviceDesc="DATAMAN-PIKpro, Specialized 40-pindrive PICmicro programmer"
PID_0578.DeviceDesc="DATAMAN-MEMpro, Specialized 40-pindrive memory programmer"
PID_0579.DeviceDesc="DATAMAN-40PRO, Universal 40-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0595.DeviceDesc="Remote Control Unit for Stand-Alone Programmers"
PID_1176.DeviceDesc="DATAMAN-48Pro2, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_1179.DeviceDesc="DATAMAN-48Pro2 core, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_1180.DeviceDesc="DATAMAN-48Pro2, site of multiprogramming system"
PID_1201.DeviceDesc="Dataman-48Pro2AP, site of multiprogramming system"
PID_1450.DeviceDesc="Dataman-48Pro2AP, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_2312.DeviceDesc="Remote Control Unit V2 for Stand-Alone Programmers"
PID_2339.DeviceDesc="ZIF socket actuation control unit #2"
PID_2365.DeviceDesc="Dataman-48Pro2AP-AU, site of multiprogramming system"
PID_2693.DeviceDesc="Dataman-48Pro2C, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_2909.DeviceDesc="Credit box"


[Strings]
MFR="BK PRECISION"
VolumeLabel = "Pg4u installation CD"
PID_0192.DeviceDesc="866, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0233.DeviceDesc="844USB, Universal 40-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0342.DeviceDesc="site of multiprogramming system"
PID_0355.DeviceDesc="Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0469.DeviceDesc="866B, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0533.DeviceDesc="866B Core, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0534.DeviceDesc="859, site of multiprogramming system"
PID_0576.DeviceDesc="Specialized 40-pindrive MCS51 programmer"
PID_0577.DeviceDesc="Specialized 40-pindrive PICmicro programmer"
PID_0578.DeviceDesc="Specialized 40-pindrive memory programmer"
PID_0579.DeviceDesc="844USB, Universal 40-pindrive Programmer"
PID_0595.DeviceDesc="Remote Control Unit for Stand-Alone Programmers"
PID_2339.DeviceDesc="ZIF socket actuation control unit #2"
PID_2693.DeviceDesc="866C, Universal 48-pindrive Programmer"
PID_2909.DeviceDesc="Credit box"
PID_3708.DeviceDesc="site of multiprogramming system"


[amyk]

866? That number looks familiar... and that one also has adapters containing "identification" not in the form of an EEPROM but a challenge-response with an MCU! But there's been a lot of RE-work on the firmware of that one.

[Nukster]

866? That number looks familiar... and that one also has adapters containing "identification" not in the form of an EEPROM but a challenge-response with an MCU! But there's been a lot of RE-work on the firmware of that one.

These are not the same devices...

The Elnec Beeprog 2 is the same as the Dataman 48Pro2 and the BK Precision 866c.

All three are 48 pin "universal programmers" with support for more than 75000 devices with current programmer software, while the programmer softwares for the BK precision and the Dataman are just rebranded versions of the Elnec software.

The device in your link is just a 40 pin lowcost programmer with support for about 15000 devices.

It also doesn't matter if they are using an EEPROM or an MCU for socket identification because it's not the type of chip that counts - The problem is that these companies scam their customers with the requirements for "specialized" manufacturer specific socket adapters where a universal socket adapter would be enough.

[Refrigerator]

All three are 48 pin "universal programmers" with support for more than 75000 devices with current programmer software.
The device in your link is just a 40 pin lowcost programmer with support for about 15000 devices.

That's the point, if you want a higher ammount of devices that can be supported you need to buy their product and adapters to go with your particular device.
What a ripoff, they're making big money for this stuff because people will certainly need more than two adapters... (if they choose to use this programmer...)

[dorkshoei]

The BK Precision 866 (original,  not the B or C version) .... which Elnec and Dataman product is it rebranded from?

If the ordering of those inf files is consistent,  then the 866 == BeeProg == DATAMAN-448PRO

With original Beeprog programmer you could use universal TSOP48 adapter (DIL48/TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm (ord.no. 70-0065)) for almost all devices in TSOP48 package.

With Beeprog 2 series they started to divide support for different chips in TSOP48 package to different adapters:

So if I'm reading this correctly,  the original 866 doesn't suffer from the problem of large number of additional TSOP48 adapters? 

I was offered an 866 but I have a need to occasionally program very old 2708/TMS2716 so this means at a minimum I'd need the BK 70-0059 Adapter.    Looking at the device list there still seems to be a large number of adapters for the 866 and they're not cheap.  I'm not sure what if any have been cloned and are for sale on eBay/alibaba?

Thanks

[plesa]

Dataman SW will work with Elnec, but not the BK software. BK required different firmware in programmer if I remember it correctly.
I'm affraid that the adapters will be same, because manufacturer is not Dataman but Elnec, Dataman/BK is only rebrand of Elnec programmers.
Check this
https://www.elnec.com/distributors/odm-product-names/

Does anybody know the manufacturer of sockets for adaptors?

[helius]

Does anybody know the manufacturer of sockets for adaptors?

DIP ZIF sockets are made by Aries and Textool (3M). Most QFP ZIF sockets are made by Yamaichi.
Plastronics also makes QFP ZIF sockets, and Yamaichi and Wells-CTI make TSOP ZIF sockets.

[plesa]

Does anybody know the manufacturer of sockets for adaptors?

DIP ZIF sockets are made by Aries and Textool (3M). Most QFP ZIF sockets are made by Yamaichi.

Thanks, Yamaichi is the brand I was looking for 

[dorkshoei]

Dataman/BK is only rebrand of Elnec programmers.
Check this
https://www.elnec.com/distributors/odm-product-names/

Thanks for that,  so "BeeProg, Dataman-48Pro, UEP 49 and BK866" are all the same.

If I'm understanding this thread correctly,  the BK866 can use this universal adapter but the later models cannot?

I'm assuming this is a cheaper version and will also work (functionally at least, presumably lower quality)?  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Adapter-Socket-Brand-New-TSOP48-to-DIP-48-/281791195825

Are there details anywhere of the other functional differences between the Beeprog (866),  BeeProg+ (866B) and BeeProg2C (866C) ?

If anyone is knowledgeable about the Beeprog (original) any chance you could fire me a PM?  Have some questions.

[plesa]

I will not hesitate to ask Elnec directly. It looks like they do not have problem to share info about OEM version of programmer.
They will maybe explain why they have so many adapters.

[dorkshoei]

Reason I ask is I've been offered a used BK 866 (original, not b or c).   I'm trying to find out it's limitations and also what is a good price for a used model. 

[coromonadalix]

Elnec  is listing Dataman and BK Precision, Chipmaster  etc ...as ODM  meaning they are original Elnec rebranded products.

I have a Dataman 48 pro+, when i opened the case, it has a sticker in it saying  Beeprog+    I use Elnec pg4uw software without problems, but considered an old programmer ...

And yes  the adapters is / are a big rip off, i needed an plcc84 zif to dip adapter a 175$ to 200$ buy  pfff     

I have taken an identical plcc84 zif adapter from a Chipmaster 6000xp,   removed the top section and hand made an bottom section, luckily for me, i have found an old Elnec document with a big list of adapters pinouts, and was able to program old Xilinx XC9500 series.

That was Until i found out Xilinx ISE suite v14.x serie (a 6 gigs torrent download), and bought an Xilinx / Altera adapter (clone DLC9) from ali express for 30$   




The BK866 software link : https://bkpmedia.s3.amazonaws.com/downloads/software/pg4uwarb.zip    don't know if it's for the "A, B or C"  is up to date (dec 4 2015 ) with Elnec v3.19

@ dorkshoei    if you have or can try the programmer,  try the BK or the Elnec software to see if it will detect it ?  if so, the model will be shown in the elnec software.

Mine is an used one  i have paid 600$ for it, and i have searched a lot and a lot,   one model is becoming popular is the TNM5000, for around 300-400$  you have a lot of power and easy to use software, i had owned this model for a while but needed  more ... was really impressed by the TNM5000, cheap cost adapters  etc...

[coromonadalix]

here's the comparative Elnec  ODM list with  brands and models

https://www.elnec.com/distributors/odm-product-names/

[timb]

Recently they have also started to charge for ISP programming with a device called "CreditBox" because programmer and adapter sales are not enough to "justify development cost"...

http://www.elnec.com/support/application-notes/html/?file=cb_and_isp

Elnec is using the same method for most of their adapters so I advise everyone to avoid buying Elnec products until they change their business practice !

This is so ludicrously absurd that I'm speechless. You buy a dongle with credits on it. You use a credit each time you perform ISP. The dongle is only good for 10 point revisions of the software (3.0 to 3.10 for example). They say there's no time limit, but then go on to talk about how it expires after a year.

They tout how their software is free, but then charge you $0.01 *each time* you program a device. Seriously? That's absurd.

If it's so hard to write support for new devices into their software, why not just charge for new versions? That would be a lot more straight forward.

Wow.

[amyk]

It's their attempt at moving to a "cloud"-ish service-like profit model. Stupid, but probably not that hard to hack...

I remember a similar scenario with inkjet printer "waste ink reset" software a few years ago - they'd charge per reset, but all I did was hook up a logic analyser to the port and capture the exact command sequence, then replay it.

[dorkshoei]

@ dorkshoei    if you have or can try the programmer,  try the BK or the Elnec software to see if it will detect it ?  if so, the model will be shown in the elnec software.

BK software works fine, as I said it's the 866.
http://www.bkprecision.com/products/discontinued/866-universal-device-programmer-with-usb-interface.html

[HiRam]

OK, I bought a BeeProg2 and have now noticed that my new universal TSOP48 adapter does not work with it (DIL48/TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm (ord.no. 70-0065)). What would you advice? Sell that programmer fast and what to buy instead or to buy all adapters needed?

[Nukster]

OK, I bought a BeeProg2 and have now noticed that my new universal TSOP48 adapter does not work with it (DIL48/TSOP48 ZIF 18.4mm (ord.no. 70-0065)). What would you advice? Sell that programmer fast and what to buy instead or to buy all adapters needed?

You should not have bought that programmer in the first place!

Get rid of it as fast as possible...