Author Topic: OT: New video camera for the blog  (Read 35226 times)

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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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OT: New video camera for the blog
« on: July 23, 2014, 06:58:41 am »
I just wasted a whole day of research and shooting video for my new Wayback Wednesday segment to find (once again) that my Canon HF G10 camera failed to record the video like it said it was doing by flashing the little red record icons.
To say I'm angry is an understatement, and no the files are not recoverable, I've tried 3 different programs.
Some of you may know this has happened before.

I will not let this camera destroy my sanity again. I want a new camera.

Suggestions please on a high end video camera to replace the Canon HF G10.
But PLEASE do not mention a DSLR, they don't do the job properly for my purpose and I don't want one.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2014, 07:13:38 am »
Come to think of it, I probably don't have much choice but to stick with an upgraded Canon  :(
I already have the battery system that is common across by 2nd camera, macro lens, and operational familiarity.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2014, 07:21:21 am »
I've used Canon for 20 years, a great deal can be said for sticking to that brand.

I have been eying some of the Panasonic camcorders (700.00-1000.00) dollar mark. The colour just looks amazing.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2014, 07:42:47 am »
PANASONIC HC-X920



 

Offline bwat

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2014, 08:34:25 am »
I understand when the "trust" is gone you may want to change brands but as an engineer you know there is no actual technical reason to.
Surely he has a very good technical reason to do so namely repeated failure. Brands are marketing thing, not a technical thing.

Actually I've never been disappointed with a Canon purchase.
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Offline Legit-Design

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2014, 08:50:12 am »
Teardown the HF G10? Or try fixing it with a big hammer?  :-/O


I've used Canon for 20 years, a great deal can be said for sticking to that brand.
I have been eying some of the Panasonic camcorders (700.00-1000.00) dollar mark. The colour just looks amazing.
Typically you would want as flat image as possible to have more to work with in post? But Dave doesn't do any color correction/grading or fancy stuff...

Come to think of it, I probably don't have much choice but to stick with an upgraded Canon  :(
I already have the battery system that is common across by 2nd camera, macro lens, and operational familiarity.
not much choice there.
Canon XA25, same sensor, same lens thread, but same batteries will not work. Yes it has long 20x zoom, which might not be needed, but other things are also upgraded.


more professional camera, maybe more durable and reliable?

From what I've understood the camera has been used really hard and one SD card slot is already dead and now it has developed this issue of not recording. Using pro-sumer camera for so long, something has to give eventually. I think the important bit is that your camera is already partly faulty, yet you choose to use it and hope it functions correctly.
 

Offline Legit-Design

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2014, 08:59:05 am »
I'd be more inclined to agree if the repeated failure was with multiple cameras and there was some rash of problems on the internet. But there isn't, and Dave may just have a single faulty camera or card.

that camera is already faulty, the other SD card slot has not been working for some time now. And Dave has been doing video blogging professionally now for years.
 

Offline Legit-Design

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2014, 09:22:50 am »
I'd be more inclined to agree if the repeated failure was with multiple cameras and there was some rash of problems on the internet. But there isn't, and Dave may just have a single faulty camera or card.

that camera is already faulty, the other SD card slot has not been working for some time now. And Dave has been doing video blogging professionally now for years.

Yes, I agree the camera is already faulty. I don't understand what point you are making. Also that Dave has been blogging for years. Are you suggesting he should have known better?

I didn't know his camera already had one faulty SD card slot. Was that the card slot that he had his previous problem with? Was it worn out from repeated insertions?
It's not a "professional" camera,  that's what I meant. Dave was talking about the camera I think on one of the recent long live streaming tests. Dave has to use some workaround to get it to record on the second slot and still had problems with it.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2014, 09:32:18 am »
Was it with the same SD card you had the previous problem? Maybe you have damaged the card.

Nope, brand new.

Quote
Was it perhaps a problem with the same card slot? It might be faulty. Damaged contact, or dirt.

Nope, different slot.

I believe it is an intermittent software bug caused by inserting the memory card when the camcorder is on.
Almost all the time it works no problem, but very occasionally if you do this then you can encounter the bug where it then fails to record anything onto the card after it is inserted. It works and displays everything just as if you are recording (e.g. red record light, timers etc), but nothing gets written to the card. Or at least nothing that can be easily recovered.
The camera will display empty clips on the playback screen.

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I understand when the "trust" is gone you may want to change brands but as an engineer you know there is no actual technical reason to.

There is a technical reason, this is not the first time I have lost a days worth of shooting to this bug. I'm pretty sure it's not a hardware fault.

Quote
The best solution if you can't identify a fault and get it repaired is to get another camera the same.

Not if you suspect it's software fault, in that case that's a very silly thing to do.

The new G30 model is claimed to fix many nasty bugs inherent in the previous G10 and G20 models.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2014, 09:38:25 am »
Canon XA25, same sensor, same lens thread, but same batteries will not work.

WTF? Really? I was going to check that.  >:(

Quote
From what I've understood the camera has been used really hard and one SD card slot is already dead and now it has developed this issue of not recording.

Yes, the other slot developed a fault, probably just bad contact. I've been using the 2nd slot for some time now.

Quote
I think the important bit is that your camera is already partly faulty, yet you choose to use it and hope it functions correctly.

That was entirely reasonable to assume that.
I believe the first memory slot has developed a bad contact, and that to be expected after thousands of insertions.
The 2nd slot was virtually unused, and I'm fairly certain this is an intermittent firmware bug at fault here. The HF G10 is known as having some bugs which Canon never fixed. They never released a new firmware update for it since it was released.
 

Offline Legit-Design

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2014, 09:48:54 am »
Canon XA25, same sensor, same lens thread, but same batteries will not work.
WTF? Really? I was going to check that.  >:(

My quick googling checks come without any kind of warranty. Hmm google says it's actually 1/2.84” HD CMOS PRO sensor . Looks like the XA25 has lot of additional features which cost extra money like, HD-SDI, the handle with sound things and XLR. I'm not sure but you might not need any of that.

Filter Diameter   58mm (http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/professional_cameras/hd_video_cameras/xa25#Specifications)

Batteries

Quote
Can battery packs BP-808D/BP-819D/BP-827D be used with the camcorder?
ID : 8201867600 _ EN _ 1
Solution   
BP-808D/BP-819D/BP-827D battery packs cannot be used with XA25 / XA20 / VIXIA HF G30 / LEGRIA HF G30.

If an incompatible battery pack is attached to XA25 / XA20 / VIXIA HF G30 / LEGRIA HF G30, the following screen will be displayed.

Battery pack is not compatible. Turning off the camcorder.


(http://kbsupport.cusa.canon.com/system/selfservice.controller?CONFIGURATION=1011&PARTITION_ID=1&secureFlag=false&TIMEZONE_OFFSET=&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=60169)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 09:58:07 am by Legit-Design »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2014, 09:54:16 am »
The G30/XA25 looks really good.
Some new feature I don't have that would be very useful
- wider angle lens
- more zoom (not so handy, but ok)
- 3.5" screen instead of 3" screen, with increased resolution (super important for a technical blogger looking at boards etc through the lens)
- Much improved touch screen. The G10 is a dog to use, lots of pressure required.
- WiFi that allows manual control from a smart phone. The G10 only allows rudimentary control via remote
- MP4 recording (also simultaneous) which allows faster direct upload for non-edited stuff
- Bigger sensor for lower light work. For those not aware, a typical office environment is low light.
- 50P. Meh, might come in handy for action stuff.
- A real size shoe mount

But it's now over a year old? Maybe a new one in the works?

This seems like a comprehensive review:
http://tubeshooter.co.uk/2013/06/22/preview-canon-xa20-xa25-hf-g30/
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 09:57:46 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2014, 09:55:56 am »
My quick googling checks come without any kind of warranty. Hmm google says it's actually 1/2.84” HD CMOS PRO sensor . Looks like the XA25 has lot of additional features which cost extra money like, HD-SDI, the handle with sound things and XLR. I'm not sure but you might not need any of that.

Correct. The G30 is the base model as I have now. The XA20 adds the (removable, so turns into a G30) handle with external audio. The XA25 adds HD-SDI output to that.
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2014, 10:02:49 am »
Are you sure that they have addressed the issue on newer models?

Alexander.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2014, 10:14:35 am »
From:
This seems like a comprehensive review:
http://tubeshooter.co.uk/2013/06/22/preview-canon-xa20-xa25-hf-g30/

Quote
And one final function which could have been useful but has been rendered impotent by its implementation, is Last Scene Review. Just press one button and the last scene you filmed gets played back, no need to switch the camcorder into playback mode. Sounds great but a) it only plays back the last four seconds and b) it doesn’t play back the sound!!! Utterly useless.

 |O
This is one of my pet peeves of the G10, not being able to easily play back the last clip you shot. It's so infuriatingly bad that I had to learn to simply trust (or more likely recall) that what I just shot was good, as it was so hard to play back a clip. Ironically though I think I'm better at this gig because of this limitation.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2014, 10:15:14 am »
Are you sure that they have addressed the issue on newer models?

No, it would be a gamble.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2014, 10:25:00 am »
Oh my:
http://www.panasonic.com/au/consumer/imaging/camcorders/hc-x920m.html
The Panasonic HC-X920M streams to the web via WiFi live and also records it. Blogging heaven.  :clap:
 

Offline bwat

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2014, 10:26:21 am »
This is one of my pet peeves of the G10, not being able to easily play back the last clip you shot. It's so infuriatingly bad that I had to learn to simply trust (or more likely recall) that what I just shot was good, as it was so hard to play back a clip. Ironically though I think I'm better at this gig because of this limitation.
Haven't done much 16mm film have you? You do up your game when the cost of failure is raised.
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Offline richms

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2014, 10:32:11 am »
I was all set to get a locally available cheap consumer Panasonic camera, but I found that they cripple the ones sold in NZ (and therefore I assume AU as well) into only recording at 25 and 50 FPS, no 30 or 60Hz option.

Their justification for this is based on some arcane analog TV format being 50Hz, but it makes video that judders massively when dropped into a 60Hz project.

Only solution was to spring for a "pro" model at 10x the price.

I again ended up getting a camera off amazon thru a reshipper because it was way cheaper than anything locally.
 

Offline mariush

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2014, 10:42:01 am »
You could buy that Sony FDR-AX100  that does 4k @ 25-30fps, 1080p at 50-60mpbs, 720p@120fps,  huge 1" cmos sensor which makes it very good at low light,  supports lens and has a few built in filters,works with standard sony batteries you can easily buy, supports input mic, built in wifi,  canrecord avhcd high bitrate and a low bitrate mp4 at same time so you can use the mp4 for some quick upload while saving the high quality video for something else.

The only problem is the price, but at least you'd be future proof (sort of): http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1022653-REG/sony_fdrax100_b_hdr_ax100_full_hd_handycam.html



There's some newer Panasonic cameras that do 4k but at higher bitrate (100mbps I think)

ps. If you do decide on it, i'd recommend asking someone to buy it for you from US to get the 4k@30fps version.. the EU version only does 4k@25fps. 30fps is already a bit bad if you're doing lots of motion in 4k.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 10:44:24 am by mariush »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2014, 11:05:35 am »
You could buy that Sony FDR-AX100  that does 4k @ 25-30fps

4K isn't going to happen.

Quote
huge 1" cmos sensor which makes it very good at low light,  supports lens

Interchangeable lenses are great until you are in my situation and have to change the lens 10 times during a shoot.
Not going to be good on the sensor.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2014, 11:06:48 am »
I was all set to get a locally available cheap consumer Panasonic camera, but I found that they cripple the ones sold in NZ (and therefore I assume AU as well) into only recording at 25 and 50 FPS, no 30 or 60Hz option.

That's standard practice with every manufacturer on the market.
This is why I shoot at 25P, because it's all my camera can do.
This time I might go for the 30P overseas model of any camera I get. But that means my B-Roll camera will be 25P.
Given that even with the canon G30 option I have to ditch all my batteries, I guess the option of getting two new cameras and selling both my current ones isn't off the table.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 11:09:30 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2014, 11:13:43 am »
I just re-read the manual. Step 1 for inserting a memory card is to ensure the camera is off.
I know you knew that. Perhaps Canon had a reason to say it.
Why do you say it is a bug. Because it works most of the time?

Because I suspect it might have happened once even doing it the proper way too.
In any case, I don't care if the manual says that, actually being able to accidentally do it is enough for it be classed as a serious bug.
I wouldn't mind at all if the camera locked up or did something else if you didn't follow the manual, that's fine. But when the camera appears to be operating correctly yet records nothing because of a mistake is inexcusable.
 

Offline mariush

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2014, 11:26:24 am »
Quote
4K isn't going to happen.
You don't have to record in 4k, but you can take advantage of the fact it records in 1080p 50mbps, the 4k would be an added bonus you may want take advantage of in future,
Or you could record closeups in 4k if you're too lazy to connect your microscope and everything, and then just crop 1080p or resize to 1080p in the editor.

Quote
Interchangeable lenses are great until you are in my situation and have to change the lens 10 times during a shoot.
Not going to be good on the sensor.

No, can't remove the original lens, the sensor is well protected behind it. I meant to say you have a ring around the lens to which you can attach additional macro lens or filters (if the built in ones aren't good enough) and so on.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: OT: New video camera for the blog
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2014, 11:28:55 am »
Oh my:
http://www.panasonic.com/au/consumer/imaging/camcorders/hc-x920m.html
The Panasonic HC-X920M streams to the web via WiFi live and also records it. Blogging heaven.  :clap:

Once again, over a year old. New model coming perhaps?
 


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