PCBWay mini-review

[moshee]

(On second look, this probably should've gone in the PCB manufacturing sub-sub-subforum. Sorry, new forum dweller.)

I decided to try out PCBWay (http://www.pcbway.com/) to make the boards for a school project. They are incredibly under-priced and seemed too good to be true. About $130 for five (minimum order) 120x75mm 4-layer boards with ENIG finish. I wanted to check out their quality before we decided to switch over for a slightly larger run (300+ boards) of a different project.

The boards just arrived today (didn't know DHL delivered on holidays), after about 10 business days and two weekends. I was a little put off by the lack of detailed images of their boards so I thought I'd take a few close-ups. I should say first that they give up to $50 of credit for good reviews, so that should explain a large portion of the overwhelmingly positive feedback I've seen.


(Imgur album link)

The main thing I noticed is the sloppy application of solder mask. It bleeds through vias and through-holes in quite a few places, spilling out onto pads and inside through-holes. The mask doesn't quite make it in between those TSSOP pads, or even the 0.8mm pitch QFP, although the same mask swell settings do me good with other fabs.

[Richard Crowley]

Wow, the silk screen looks amazingly low-rez.  Almost like it was done with an inkjet printer or something?
It also looks like the frame (or the board) may have shifted during printing.  Looks a bit smeared.

[matseng]

I recall reading the specs at some pcb fab and noted that they had separate data for white soldermask that was worse than the other colors.

Can it be that the white pigmented color is flowing and adhering differently during application than the others? But why?

[rs20]

You've chosen to use tented vias* here, which may be worth avoiding in future from this fab. Most PCBs you see in "real products" have non-tented vias, which is handy for debugging, and also avoids issues like these.

Having said that, the solder mask being inside larger non-tented though-holes is pretty poor.

* Vias covered up by solder mask.

[zapta]

I should say first that they give up to $50 of credit for good reviews, so that should explain a large portion of the overwhelmingly positive feedback I've seen.

They are known as shameless spammers and we see here often people with low post count that try to push the PCBways name. Actually, I just noticed that this is your first post here...

No chance of any business from me.

[moshee]

I recall reading the specs at some pcb fab and noted that they had separate data for white soldermask that was worse than the other colors.

Can it be that the white pigmented color is flowing and adhering differently during application than the others? But why?

That's good to know. I also considered this too, perhaps I will try a different color next time.

You've chosen to use tented vias* here, which may be worth avoiding in future from this fab. Most PCBs you see in "real products" have non-tented vias, which is handy for debugging, and also avoids issues like these.

I seem to remember most of the things I've taken apart having covered vias, but I'll keep that in mind. I definitely understand the benefit to debugging.

Actually, I just noticed that this is your first post here...

I was apprehensive about posting for that reason, but there's a first post for everyone. Incidentally, my reason for registering only a few days prior has nothing to do with this (can't actually remember any more but I'm a long-time watcher and lurker).

Seeing some familiar names tweeting about them made me want to try them out, but I may have been expecting too much.

[Falcon69]

Yup!

Looks about as crappy as the ones I got from them.  I complained to them about it and his response was, "Sorry about that, we had a new guy working that area". I asked for some type of a credit since I had to reorder the boards, He stopped answering my emails.

I will never order form them again. I may go back to Sitopway or look for another.

[matseng]

I can't find the site with the white specs again, but dirtypcbs.com have a separate spec for black mask...

Min solder dam: 3mil(green) / 3.5mil(black)

So the color of the mask definitely affects the end result.

[Wilksey]

Wow, those images are shockingly bad!

Were the PCB's made by a 5 year old?!

[Richard Crowley]

So the color of the mask definitely affects the end result.

WHY?  Are they using conductive paint?  Are they unable to thin it down to the proper consistency to do a proper screen-print?
Why are others able to screen-print black so much better?  Doesn't make any sense to me.

[Scrts]

I'd say it's possible to avoid many problems when doing a *proper* PCB.
1) VIAs on the PADs? Seriously? Blind VIAs would be OK, but definitely not through hole, since all the solder would go through the hole to the other side.
2) Why do you cover the VIAs anyway? Leave them open anywhere possible, so it's easy to debug the PCB by touching the VIA using scope probe.
3) It would be interesting to see the Paste Mask Gerber file.

Other than that:
the service is crappy. Not even the solder mask issue, but the drills are crappy. I see different hole sizes and it doesn't seem to be Gerber issue?

[Monkeh]

You've chosen to use tented vias* here, which may be worth avoiding in future from this fab. Most PCBs you see in "real products" have non-tented vias, which is handy for debugging, and also avoids issues like these.

Having said that, the solder mask being inside larger non-tented though-holes is pretty poor.

* Vias covered up by solder mask.

I would disgree, tented vias seem to be the norm these days.

[rx8pilot]

I'd say it's possible to avoid many problems when doing a *proper* PCB.
1) VIAs on the PADs? Seriously? Blind VIAs would be OK, but definitely not through hole, since all the solder would go through the hole to the other side.
2) Why do you cover the VIAs anyway? Leave them open anywhere possible, so it's easy to debug the PCB by touching the VIA using scope probe.
3) It would be interesting to see the Paste Mask Gerber file.

Other than that:
the service is crappy. Not even the solder mask issue, but the drills are crappy. I see different hole sizes and it doesn't seem to be Gerber issue?

Via-in-pad can work with laser drilled <5mil micro-vias. The hole is so small the capillary action is too slow to do much during the short period the solder is melted. I have been looking at this closely to get better density on my PCB's. going to 0201's, micro vias, and via in-pad.

[mamalala]

I decided to try out PCBWay

What did you pay for the boards, and for how many boards?

Greetings,

Chris

[uoficowboy]

You've chosen to use tented vias* here, which may be worth avoiding in future from this fab. Most PCBs you see in "real products" have non-tented vias, which is handy for debugging, and also avoids issues like these.

Having said that, the solder mask being inside larger non-tented though-holes is pretty poor.

* Vias covered up by solder mask.

I would disgree, tented vias seem to be the norm these days.

Completely agree - everything I've put into production had tented vias. Every board I've seen go into production in recent years had tented vias.

Regarding these boards - the soldermask quality and silkscreen quality are terrible. I've never seen rough edges like that on mask - I'd love to hear if anybody has a theory as to why it looks like that.

The silkscreen is also funny looking - like they used one of those dot matrix style silkscreen printers, instead of actually using a silkscreen. But those things normally achieve much, much better looking print then this - so maybe their printer is old/busted?

[T3sl4co1l]

To be fair, I'm sorry to say but your layout doesn't look very good.

Likely, it's possible to make reasonable-to-good boards with their process, making some allowance on design rules.  This is standard; there is no absolutely consistent spec that all manufacturers will adhere to, and ultimately it is your responsibility as the designer to work with the capabilities of the board house you're ordering from.

The IPC has some standards, which most manufacturers adhere to.  But ultimately, it's as with any other purchased part or contract: you tell them what you want, and you decide if what you received is satisfactory or not.

That said, obviously, the better producers will try to make things better than spec, not marginally at it.  So we get the answer to the question we had already guessed: "do you get what you pay for?"

Economics aside... how's the soldermask strength?  Is it weak and easy to chip away, or tough and strong?  Do you have a micrometer capable of measuring the foil thickness?  (Peel some off, somewhere.)  What's the peel strength, good?  After scraping off the soldermask and peeling up a corner, does the rest come up easily under the soldering iron, or is it fairly adherent while hot?

Tim

[moshee]

To be fair, I'm sorry to say but your layout doesn't look very good.

Likely, it's possible to make reasonable-to-good boards with their process, making some allowance on design rules.  This is standard; there is no absolutely consistent spec that all manufacturers will adhere to, and ultimately it is your responsibility as the designer to work with the capabilities of the board house you're ordering from.

The IPC has some standards, which most manufacturers adhere to.  But ultimately, it's as with any other purchased part or contract: you tell them what you want, and you decide if what you received is satisfactory or not.

That said, obviously, the better producers will try to make things better than spec, not marginally at it.  So we get the answer to the question we had already guessed: "do you get what you pay for?"

Economics aside... how's the soldermask strength?  Is it weak and easy to chip away, or tough and strong?  Do you have a micrometer capable of measuring the foil thickness?  (Peel some off, somewhere.)  What's the peel strength, good?  After scraping off the soldermask and peeling up a corner, does the rest come up easily under the soldering iron, or is it fairly adherent while hot?

Tim

I am not surprised if my layout sucks as it's really like my third "real" layout ever, and the first with more than 50 or so components. I was actually hesitant to post for that reason but I figured it would be good to show the board quality, inexperienced layout aside.

Unfortunately I don't have a micrometer, but I can say a few things about the mask. It seems about as strong and scratch-resistant as some boards I got from OSHPark. I managed to peel up an edge and with some pliers I could peel it back. The adhesion seems decent. Heating it up with my iron doesn't seem to affect the adhesion.

[edavid]

I decided to try out PCBWay (http://www.pcbway.com/) to make the boards for a school project. They are incredibly under-priced and seemed too good to be true. About $130 for five (minimum order) 120x75mm 4-layer boards with ENIG finish. I wanted to check out their quality before we decided to switch over for a slightly larger run (300+ boards) of a different project.

Why do you say they are underpriced?  Looking at pcbshopper.com, that price doesn't seem that great.  You could have gone with Elecrow or Seeed.

P.S. Thanks for posting your review!

[moshee]

Why do you say they are underpriced?  Looking at pcbshopper.com, that price doesn't seem that great.  You could have gone with Elecrow or Seeed.

Their turn time is comparatively a bit better and they provide a lot of opportunity for store credit ($50 favorable review, $25 per referral, etc.)

That said, it was not the most educated decision on my part, as I had discovered pcbshopper the week after I placed my order. I was in a hurry. Many lessons learned.

[iampoor]

Why do you say they are underpriced?  Looking at pcbshopper.com, that price doesn't seem that great.  You could have gone with Elecrow or Seeed.

Their turn time is comparatively a bit better and they provide a lot of opportunity for store credit ($50 favorable review, $25 per referral, etc.)

That said, it was not the most educated decision on my part, as I had discovered pcbshopper the week after I placed my order. I was in a hurry. Many lessons learned.

After quite a few orders with Elecrow, it usually takes 7-9 days from submitting my gerbers to getting the boards using DHL shipping....thats pretty fast. 

[rx8pilot]

How is the quality, in your experience, with Elecrow? Have you done any fine pitch and small vias?

[iampoor]

How is the quality, in your experience, with Elecrow? Have you done any fine pitch and small vias?

It has been pretty consistant with the other cheap PCB services I have tried. The boards are decent, but you do have to be careful with the pads. I have found that when reworking them multiple times (3-5) it is pretty easy to life them off the board.

I havent. I only use through hole to 0805 sized components. I will be trying a QFN16 package in the next few weeks. I will report back!

What I really like about elecrow is they contact you if there are any issues with your order. With all of the other cheap PCB fabs I have tried, most of them will either ignore it, and spin your board or someone will edit your file, change the trace, and not provide any notes or emails about it. I have had some dead prototype boards because of that.

[kingofkya]

I have to thow my opinon in here as well. i relly liek pcb-ways's order process it works nice and keep you in the loop on production.

However there seasm to be a very wide quailty on pcbs, the normal thikness ones are ok a bit worse than elecrow (weeker solder resist, copper easy to overheat only tested green and blue), but when you drop thikness down the pcb quality seams to go up and the above issues go away and shipping gets cheaper:)

Now all that being said, i have gotten 2 pcbs with shorterd traces on them so i don't know about there e-test seams like there not bothering. In both cases the spaceing was around .9-8mm so its not like it was crazy close.

[coflynn]

I had recently ordered from 3PCB as a test, which is the same as PCBWay (didn't realize that at the time, trying to avoid feeding the spammers). But since I've got them thought some comparison photos might be interesting. All boards just 2 layers, 1.6mm. First off, the white soldermask:



This has the not-very-clean edge seen earlier on the soldermask! But looking at Blue mask (different layout, but this is same library part):



There are no problems with nice clean edges. Drill hit accuracy in both boards aren't amazing. For comparison the exact same blue board done with DFRobot:



This particular pad is a little small for hole size, although I'm just using a default library from Eagle so never checked too carefully...

[poorchava]

I have some PCBs at home, that my customer had ordered at pcbway. I'm gonna take some photos when i have some free time. Anyway, quality seemed pretty good, at least on par with popular places like itead, seeed or elecrow, but still nowhere near the quality that you can get from Eurocircuits, Technoservice, Wuerth Elektronik or similar manufacturers. I couldn't complain. One thing to note - IIRC they have manufactured PCBs with plated routed slots at no (or very little) extra cost.

P.S.
I hope I won't be flagged as pcbway sales guy  O0

[Corporate666]

I ordered boards from them - a mix of 1.6mm and 0.8mm.

Quality of the PCB's seemed reasonable, although I got green soldermask - so can't speak to the "white issue".  But my problem with them was 2 fold.

1) They only validate uploaded files within a 3 hour window (9am - 12pm China local time).  So I uploaded files around 1pm (their time) on Tuesday.  They validated 2 out of 5 the following day... then validated the other 3 the next day.  So it was Friday morning before I could actually check out and place the order.

2) They claim 5 days processing time.  Well, it was 11 days from the date I placed the order until they shipped the boards.  When I queried them on this, they said "Oh, sorry, we had a worker holiday here, we were closed 2 days".  OK, but that doesn't explain why it took 11 days, and they should tell clients about such holidays that impact schedule commitments. 

I might give them another shot for an order that isn't too critical and see how they do, but like many Chinese companies - don't rely on the commitments and claims they make on the website.

[zapta]

I might give them another shot for an order that isn't too critical and see how they do, but like many Chinese companies - don't rely on the commitments and claims they make on the website.

Some competitors have simpler ordering process. With elecrow for example, you upload the file and pay. The next day somebody looks at it an contact you if there is any issue. If not, then it just goes straight for production.

[Corporate666]

I might give them another shot for an order that isn't too critical and see how they do, but like many Chinese companies - don't rely on the commitments and claims they make on the website.

Some competitors have simpler ordering process. With elecrow for example, you upload the file and pay. The next day somebody looks at it an contact you if there is any issue. If not, then it just goes straight for production.

My usual CM has excellent online ordering with instant quoting, and I can choose "exotic" features like filled+capped vias, specify my panelization/fiducial requirements and plating type and thickness online.  In this case, I had some prototype boards I needed in a hurry and PCBShopper showed these guys as the fastest.

So the one thing that drew me to them ended up being the thing they failed to deliver on.   Not off to a great start in the (highly) competitive world of PCB fabrication.

[coflynn]

So the one thing that drew me to them ended up being the thing they failed to deliver on

Yeah, I had earlier tried some 4-layer PCBs and paid the rush fee... but it ended up a number of them failed e-test and it took them a while to get back to me in asking if they should just ship the OK boards or wait to remake the PCBs, so it took a few extra days. But my last 'regular' order ended up being done in my hands in ~9 calendar days (at least 4 of those are shipping) which is pretty good.

The time difference with China combined with need to pay after approval does often add a few days, since when they get approved it's normally midnight or later here. Then once I pay they might not start processing until the next business day (in China) as the payment was received towards the end of their day. I agree it's needless and they could just per-authorize payment instead, but such is life.

Those silkscreens are awful.

I'd be curious to see the Seed boards then! I had compared a number of silkscreens, and the white silkscreen didn't look that much worse than any other PCB with what I assume to be digital printing (noticeable dots). The high zoom level greatly exaggerates the edges... looking at the PCBs they look like solid lines. The black silkscreen (on white soldermask) is noticeably lower quality though. Something with the white soldermask I assume affecting the black silkscreen ink I assume?

[rollatorwieltje]

This is what Seeed looks like, this is the smallest I would go on silkscreen with them. The text in the table is 0.8mm high with 0.118mm trace width. It's just readable, but the limited resolution is very visible.

[PeterL]

Well, I also gave PCBWay a try. It was for a very simple pcb, only through hole stuff, and I really didn't care about how the silkscreen was gonna come out.
This was also my first Circuitmaker project, and Circuitmaker's default text for designators is much finer than what I'm used to in Altium. But since I didn't bother, I didn't change it.

I received the pcb's just this morning, and I must say, I'm really surprised by the result of especially the silkscreen. Just look at the little 'K' next to LED1. This is only 0.5mm high, and the lines themselves have a width of 3 mil.

They also milled the internal slots properly, which was my biggest concern. 

[VeriEdILA]

Agreed ISO Standards are available to read for " proper PCB lay out agreed "

quote
once you are the DRC checker, you are no longer the pcb wrecker.

[matseng]

I received the pcb's just this morning, and I must say, I'm really surprised by the result of especially the silkscreen. Just look at the little 'K' next to LED1. This is only 0.5mm high, and the lines themselves have a width of 3 mil.

That is really some quality silk.  I wish the other elcheapo fabs was able to do silk like this...

[markg735]

So I was looking to get some lower cost PCBs for my project and found PCBWay. So here is my data point: My PCB is 2 layers and mostly through hole. Some of the spacing is critical and I have my rather elaborate logo in the silkscreen layer. I placed my order on a Thursday night and got a friendly engineer named Lynne who said everything looks good.

Much to my surprise the PCBs arrived in the US (Florida no less) Tuesday morning. According to their website they seem to work the weekend. I built a few up and they worked fine. I can't get over the quality I got for the price. And my elaborate logo came out looking really sharp. Sharper than some of the domestic prototypes I had built. There were a few knicks in the solder mask but not in a critical area and electrically the PCBs passed all my tests. I chose green solder mask although they offer blue for free as well I believe.

I also reworked a pad a few times on purpose to see how they would stand up to reworks and the pad stayed on the board through my abuse.

The turnaround is quick enough and their price low enough I would definitely say give them a shot.

[fivefish]

Been using PCBWay since last year, I've ordered 10+ jobs from them, totalling several hundred boards. No complaints here. The only downside is the DHL shipping... expensive. But at least you get a tracking # and you pretty much receive it 2-3 days after they ship it out. I also like with PCBWay, you can do combined shipping and that's one way of saving money.

I used to use PCBCart, but their prices have slowly gone up over the years, and I HATE the setup fees for 1st time ordering of the board, and possibly new setup fees if dramatic revisions done to the board.  If you're spinning and doing lots of revisions to the board, I just HATE those setup fees. So I left them, but used them for a good maybe 5 years. Their quality also seems to have gone over the years, vs the first year I tried them. A few times, I had to complain and they had to redo the boards, as the hole sizes turn up too small.

I tried SeedStudio, but their ordering process isn't straightforward and easy as PCBWay.

[Selectech]

Put an order into Pcbway last Sunday evening, got the boards back today + a frameless stencil.

Everything looks good, so all in all quite pleased with their service & quality. Two more items went in this evening so I hope the quality and service is maintained.

Like a lot of folks, I do use PCBcart, Myro and Sitopway. I needed some quicker turn for a project and decided to give Pcbway a test. Seems to have been a good choice.

[mrpackethead]

Yup!

Looks about as crappy as the ones I got from them.  I complained to them about it and his response was, "Sorry about that, we had a new guy working that area". I asked for some type of a credit since I had to reorder the boards, He stopped answering my emails.

I will never order form them again. I may go back to Sitopway or look for another.

I'm getting pretty good results out of Sitopway.   This review is interesting because i seriously had thought about giving them a try. Seems folks are reporting a pretty mixed bag.. Not sure if thats something i want from a PCB fabricator.

[Psi]

This was from elecrow a year ago

There was a solder mask alignment issue, but it didn't cause any problem with the 30 or so boards i made.

Interestingly, you can see where the board test probes touched each pad.

I still like elecrow, they are a good compromise of cost vs quality and can make boards really fast at a pretty reasonable extra cost

[rs20]

Woah, your solder mask expansion is enormous. Is that what you specced? A mistake, or am I missing something?

[Psi]

i cant remember exactly, but i think that was me who expanded it completely on that QFN. The sliver was just too small.

[T3sl4co1l]

Also quite narrow pads for a QFN.  IPC says +0.03/-0 mm against part pads for that dimension.

That leftmost QFN pad actually has mask on the pad, nasty.  Don't suppose you specified "no soldermask allowed on pads" so you can tell them to redo it.

Tim

[Psi]

I drag solder them myself , so I have made some tweaks to make assembly easier.

[T3sl4co1l]

Ah, there you go.  Manufacturing should always have the final say in these things!

Tim

[david-IT]

So I was looking to get some lower cost PCBs for my project and found PCBWay. So here is my data point: My PCB is 2 layers and mostly through hole. Some of the spacing is critical and I have my rather elaborate logo in the silkscreen layer. I placed my order on a Thursday night and got a friendly engineer named Lynne who said everything looks good.

Much to my surprise the PCBs arrived in the US (Florida no less) Tuesday morning. According to their website they seem to work the weekend. I built a few up and they worked fine. I can't get over the quality I got for the price. And my elaborate logo came out looking really sharp. Sharper than some of the domestic prototypes I had built. There were a few knicks in the solder mask but not in a critical area and electrically the PCBs passed all my tests. I chose green solder mask although they offer blue for free as well I believe.

I also reworked a pad a few times on purpose to see how they would stand up to reworks and the pad stayed on the board through my abuse.

The turnaround is quick enough and their price low enough I would definitely say give them a shot.

The same reason for me that i choose pcbway,here is my friend's project,wonderful

[DrTune]

My 2 cents - I just got a 2-layer back from PCBWay and it was fast and cheap ($12 for 10 boards, the DHL shipping was twice that but hey it was quick).  Looks fine, exactly as specified - I used green soldermask and no complaints about alignment or resolution of mask, silk or drills.  Impressed by the speediness.

Just submitted a larger, 4-layer high-speed USB board couple of days ago - it's 93mm x 55mm (with DHL it came to $75 for 10) - not as cheap of course.

I do like:
a) Their website is good - love that they show you time/date of all the manufacturing processes as it happens
b) Fast
c) Cheap
d) Good customer service - with my USB board I asked them about their stack-up because I want (roughly) 90-ohm diff traces and they send me a nice word doc with all their stackup options and dielectric constants etc. Then when I submitted the board they emailed and checked to see if I wanted a proper impedance controlled board (I said no; I'm cheap and I calculated the appropriate trace spacing/width for their stackup... correctly I hope ;-) but I appreciate the attention for a mere $49 order.

So far I like their stuff, and they're pretty much the cheapest as well (at least for small volumes like this).  Of course my enthusiasm may wane if the 4-layer boards have issues ...

[mrpackethead]

To be fair, I'm sorry to say but your layout doesn't look very good.

Thats what i was thinking as well.     I just had a good look at multiple boards that i have had from pcbway. and none of them look remotely like those.  The Silk Screen registraiton is great. Mind you i dont' lable a lot of parts since its all too small to read and a machine is placing them anway.. 

are you usign some odd ball font. Those dont' look like Stroke Fonts?

[MaximRecoil]

Wow, the silk screen looks amazingly low-rez.  Almost like it was done with an inkjet printer or something?
It also looks like the frame (or the board) may have shifted during printing.  Looks a bit smeared.

A good inkjet printer is capable of quality that appears perfect to the naked eye, especially when printing on a smooth/non-porous substrate. They are commonly used to make the film positives used for burning the screens for silkscreen printing. A film positive printed by my Epson Stylus Photo 1400 looks like it was printed by the hand of God; razor sharp lines, angles, and curves; though under magnification you can see it isn't perfect (nothing ever is perfect under magnification).

I'm guessing the printing on the OP's boards looks at least okay in person, to the naked eye, but it's definitely not particularly high quality. They are probably using a high speed mode on their printer instead of the highest quality (much slower) mode.

[xzswq21]

Also quite narrow pads for a QFN.  IPC says +0.03/-0 mm against part pads for that dimension.

That leftmost QFN pad actually has mask on the pad, nasty.  Don't suppose you specified "no soldermask allowed on pads" so you can tell them to redo it.

Tim

Dear
how much solder mask should I use for a SMD board?
in my board I have many QFN, LFCSP(OpAmp/ADC/DAC), 0603 Res/Cap/Inductor.

Thanks