Author Topic: Prometheus for Rapid Prototyping - Forget Everything You Know About PCB Milling  (Read 48327 times)

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Offline roccoTopic starter

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You didn't miss it in the video - there is no pressure foot because Prometheus doesn't need one! Instead, ProCAM runs a ~90 second probing cycle before milling begins, where the tip of the tool moves down until it makes electrical contact with the copper-clad surface. When it does, it records the height with 1.25-micron resolution. After probing a grid of points, ProCAM forms a surface map behind the scenes and automatically tells Prometheus how to adjust the Z axis on the fly to keep a consistent milling depth. Basically, it follows the peaks and valleys of the board on its own. This has proven to produce fantastic results and users don't have to worry about pressure foot limitations or the pad wearing or snagging or anything like that. It just works.

Sounds impressive. How well will that work with very thin PCB material that tends to bow/flex upwards? eg 0.02" Rogers 4003C or thinner?
The thinnest RF PCB material I've milled on my old T-Tech machine was two sided copper with a 60 micron thick dielectric. It was like copper paper. However, that is very much a rare extreme :)

It's really funny you mention that - I have Rogers 4003C arriving in the mail later today. It's only .012" and .008" thick. I'm testing it out for a  large aerospace customer that has pre-ordered Prometheus. Thicker Rogers 4350 worked out great so far. We shall see...
 

Online G0HZU

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This machine is a total nonsense, making pcb's with UV Light is very easier,  faster, better results and cheap.

UV light boxes and PCB mills have been around for decades and both are valid ways to make a prototype PCB. If PCB mills are 'total nonsense' compared to UV light then how come T-Tech and LPKF have been making and selling these expensive machines for decades now? Maybe someone should have told them 30 years ago that their business plan for the next 30 years was 'total nonsense' and they should be selling cheap UV light boxes instead  ;D

I still can't fathom why the experts on here can't accept that there is a market for these machines and there has been for decades. It may well be a shrinking market because of the low cost of buying cheap FR4 boards from fab houses but these machines are often popular with companies that do RF design on exotic laminates. Plus there is the value of being able to make several iterations of a design the same day.

UV light boxes and smelly/staining chemicals aren't for everyone. At my place of work we stopped using the UV method about 25 years ago in favour of a T-Tech mill. No more complaints of chemical smells wafting through the labs on hot days, no more complaints of drips and stains left by clumsy or lazy engineers, much easier production of (accurate) 2 sided boards, much easier to drill, much easier and faster to produce PCBs with accurate custom outlines and with accurate custom cutout areas. No more sounds of engineers furiously filing the edges of PCBs to make them fit or drilling and filing out apertures within the PCB :)




« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 05:09:19 pm by G0HZU »
 
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Online G0HZU

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It's really funny you mention that - I have Rogers 4003C arriving in the mail later today. It's only .012" and .008" thick. I'm testing it out for a  large aerospace customer that has pre-ordered Prometheus. Thicker Rogers 4350 worked out great so far. We shall see...
You might get away with it because your machine has a limited PCB area so there is less chance of flexing or bowing.

My T-Tech 7000S is way too big for most jobs as it can do boards or front panels up to 19" x 13" and I rarely use a sheet of PCB material larger than 12" x 8". I tend to buy PCB sheets in this size or guillotine them down to this size. Usually this bare PCB size will cope with several jobs but it does mean that the thinner PCB materials tend to bow upwards in the middle of the large PCB area. This isn't an issue for the foot system but it might cause you problems on very thin materials when you mill up near your PCB size limit.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 05:19:55 pm by G0HZU »
 

Offline usagi

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I still can't fathom why the experts on here can't accept that there is a market for these machines and there has been for decades.

there is a market, but OP's market is a niche within a niche. and despite the pretentious title doesn't revolutionize pcb milling.
 
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Offline roccoTopic starter

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businesses and universities serious about pcb prototyping will buy something with a commercial onsite support contract. if they are so dependent on 1hr turnaround, then they will want a support engineer on site to fix it NOW.

My data doesn't agree with your statement. I've already pre-sold to businesses and universities. Not a single one has requested a "commercial onsite support contract".
 

Offline roccoTopic starter

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UV light boxes and PCB mills have been around for decades and both are valid ways to make a prototype PCB. If PCB mills are 'total nonsense' compared to UV light then how come T-Tech and LPKF have been making and selling these expensive machines for decades now? Maybe someone should have told them 30 years ago that their business plan for the next 30 years was 'total nonsense' and they should be selling cheap UV light boxes instead  ;D

I still can't fathom why the experts on here can't accept that there is a market for these machines and there has been for decades. It may well be a shrinking market because of the low cost of buying cheap FR4 boards from fab houses but these machines are often popular with companies that do RF design on exotic laminates. Plus there is the value of being able to make several iterations of a design the same day.

UV light boxes and smelly/staining chemicals aren't for everyone. At my place of work we stopped using the UV method about 25 years ago in favour of a T-Tech mill. No more complaints of chemical smells wafting through the labs on hot days, no more complaints of drips and stains left by clumsy or lazy engineers, much easier production of (accurate) 2 sided boards, much easier to drill, much easier and faster to produce PCBs with accurate custom outlines and with accurate custom cutout areas. No more sounds of engineers furiously filing the edges of PCBs to make them fit or drilling and filing out apertures within the PCB :)

All great points.
 

Online nctnico

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But these point are extremely focussed on RF prototyping which is a tiny niche.
I understand you want to make your product look like it's a solution to everyone's problem but most just don't have the problem you are trying to provide a solution for.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline roccoTopic starter

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But these point are extremely focussed on RF prototyping which is a tiny niche.
I understand you want to make your product look like it's a solution to everyone's problem but most just don't have the problem you are trying to provide a solution for.

nctnico, I think your remarks have been pretty reasonable but guys, I've never said it's for everyone or even implied it. I don't know how I could have been more clear on that after re-reading my posts. Seems like every critic wants to insist that either I, or anyone saying anything positive, believes that this is for everyone and then proceeds to argue with us about why it isn't.

It is not for everyone. Hope that's clear now :)

 

Offline usagi

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your subject title was really asking for it. then you profess surprise when people challenge your claim.

if it were a whole lot less clickbaity and less pretentious you wouldn't be getting hammered like you are.

Online G0HZU

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The only pretentious people I see are the ones pretending to be experts on why milling is a waste of time. This seems to happen a lot when PCB milling gets discussed. Clearly a lot of effort has gone into designing and building this piece of equipment although I get the impression that it hasn't been fully trialled yet for various PCB types and PCB designs.

For me, the footless design that uses optical tracking is interesting and so is the use of the oil. However, I would have some doubts how well the oil copes when doing a fairly thorough rubout and I think the manual use of the vacuum isn't attractive in its present guise. But the price looks really low.

How long it lasts before wear becomes an issue would be one concern but I guess this is offset by the low price. My milling machine has lasted over 20 years because I have used it with care and skill and I've serviced it regularly. I've never needed to use any of the parts in the service kit that came with it apart from changing the tiny grub screw for the tool chuck at recommended intervals. The identical model at my place of work only lasted a few years because we made the mistake of letting any engineer play with it. So it inevitably lost performance and was eventually damaged so much the wear and 'lack of true' in the spindle became so ridiculous it couldn't mill anything beyond a basic outline for a tool.

We replaced it with an LPKF machine and only a trained operator is allowed to use it. So despite being used many times a week for maybe 15 years it is still running. It has needed a few repairs in this time but nothing too serious or costly.

 
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Offline mrpackethead

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This machine is a total nonsense, making pcb's with UV Light is very easier,  faster, better results and cheap.

UV light boxes and PCB mills have been around for decades and both are valid ways to make a prototype PCB. If PCB mills are 'total nonsense' compared to UV light then how come T-Tech and LPKF have been making and selling these expensive machines for decades now? Maybe someone should have told them 30 years ago that their business plan for the next 30 years was 'total nonsense' and they should be selling cheap UV light boxes instead  ;D

I can't tell you how many people who have been duped into buying LPFK machines and then they have been left lying idle.  So many universitys and fab.. ( and ourselves.. )..   Good marketing and hype sold lots of these machines..

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I still can't fathom why the experts on here can't accept that there is a market for these machines and there has been for decades.

You've missed the point.   There is a small niche market, but if you really think hard about it, you'll work out that what milluing does is just let you be sloppy with your design work and then you run lots of prototypes, rather than modeling, checking, rechekcing and running 1 or 2 protos and then getting a product to market much faster.     Does it work. Of cours.. Does it make real economic sense.  no. the limitations it presents are significant enough.. Now if you coudl produce a 2 layer, through plated board you'd move the equation significnatly, and if you coudl do a 4 layer board, you've massively changed the game.   

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It may well be a shrinking market because of the low cost of buying cheap FR4 boards from fab houses but these machines are often popular with companies that do RF design on exotic laminates. Plus there is the value of being able to make several iterations of a design the same day.

Are you dealing with unknown science?    Why not spend your time on designing it correctly to start with.   And there are so many packages and tools to help you!!

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UV light boxes and smelly/staining chemicals aren't for everyone. At my place of work we stopped using the UV method about 25 years ago in favour of a T-Tech mill. No more complaints of chemical smells wafting through the labs on hot days,
Substituted for the high pitched whine of drilling and the inhalliation hazzard of very fine powered laminate.    You are substituing one hazzard for another.  No matter which way you make PCB's, its got some uglyness attached to it!!

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Offline mrpackethead

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your subject title was really asking for it. then you profess surprise when people challenge your claim.

if it were a whole lot less clickbaity and less pretentious you wouldn't be getting hammered like you are.

Exactly..    In fact, what it did was Remdin me about everything i do know about pcb milling and why its such a bad idea for us, and almost everyone i've talked to. ( apart from our RF black magic people )
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Offline mrpackethead

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The only pretentious people I see are the ones pretending to be experts on why milling is a waste of time. This seems to happen a lot when PCB milling gets discussed.
Im not talking from some made up theortical position.   I did spend a large sum of money, and invested a lot of time into PCB Milliung after being suckered into the hype of it.    Talking from real experince, i can tell you that it not only wastes time, but also ends up costing money.   It encourages poor design and poor engineering, because people start thinking that they can just spin another board and solv things if it doe'snt work.. If theres a bit of pain in having to wait 2-3 days for a pcb, then that is good, bcause people are much much more careful.  And as they guy who has to pay the bills, i'm actually much more interested in the bottom line.

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Clearly a lot of effort has gone into designing and building this piece of equipment although I get the impression that it hasn't been fully trialled yet for various PCB types and PCB designs.

Indeed. I hope the creator has put as much effort into understanding the market that he hopes to sell this device to.

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and so is the use of the oil.

Yes, it is.  but it may well increase tool wear, if the material is not being ejected out..  Tool wear at 50krpm on .3mm tools in FR4 is a major factor.     They just dont' last very long.

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We replaced it with an LPKF machine and only a trained operator is allowed to use it. So despite being used many times a week for maybe 15 years it is still running. It has needed a few repairs in this time but nothing too serious or costly.

Your lucky. the two machines LPKF sent us where both disasters. ( though i largely think the software was to blame ).. 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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I think the manual use of the vacuum isn't attractive in its present guise. But the price looks really low.

FR4 dust is abrasive, and needs to be kept away from bearings, so local vacuum extraction is pretty much essential if you want it to last a decent amount of time.
 
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Offline roccoTopic starter

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your subject title was really asking for it. then you profess surprise when people challenge your claim.

if it were a whole lot less clickbaity and less pretentious you wouldn't be getting hammered like you are.

What claim did I make that people are challenging? The only thing some people are challenging is market size, something that I've made no claims about. Also, I've professed no surprise.

The title is "Prometheus for Rapid Prototyping - Forget Everything You Know About PCB Milling". If you'd like to know why I said, "Forget Everything You Know About PCB Milling", it's because some people have an impression that PCB milling has to be extremely slow and only produce boards for through-hole components or large SOICs. They don't realize that you can support .4 mm-pitch components with the right equipment. They might get this impression from the hobby machines on YouTube or from trying it out on a general-purpose mill with high spindle runout. On the other hand, others who are familiar with professional machines like LPKF, T-tech, Mits, etc. do know that you can get good results but they also know that the machines cost many thousands of dollars.

For example, if you were to search for a machine that can do 4-mil trace/5-mil space or better, you might come up with something like this: https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20160325161141/http://www.lpkfusa.com/Store/pages/ProductDetail.aspx?cat=51&cid=51&pid=364
Notice the $8,500 price. I had to use archive.org because it appears that you now have to call for a quote. I'm providing 4/5 trace/space for a fraction of that price - $2,300.

Relevant Prometheus specs to also consider when you compare machines are:
Spindle Speed: 50,000 RPM
Max X/Y Speed: 3,800 mm/min (150 IPM)
Spindle Runout (TIR): < 2.5 microns, 10 mm below the spindle bearing (static)

In summary, PCB milling no longer has to be as slow or as expensive anymore. I won't debate whether it's still too slow or too expensive for any given purpose; that is subjective. It's not for everybody.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 11:57:00 pm by rocco »
 

Online G0HZU

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Im not talking from some made up theortical position.   I did spend a large sum of money, and invested a lot of time into PCB Milliung after being suckered into the hype of it.    Talking from real experince, i can tell you that it not only wastes time, but also ends up costing money.   It encourages poor design and poor engineering, because people start thinking that they can just spin another board and solv things if it doe'snt work.. If theres a bit of pain in having to wait 2-3 days for a pcb, then that is good, bcause people are much much more careful.  And as they guy who has to pay the bills, i'm actually much more interested in the bottom line.

My impression is that just need to hire better, more committed engineers rather than blame the fact that you/they can't make the correct decisions on what tools will or won't work for your business. Telling the rest of the world that milling is a waste of time because it promotes laziness in your engineers doesn't make me think that the problem is with having a fast PCB turnaround. It sounds to me like you are spinning a positive (fast turnaround) into a negative/excuse because you have lazy engineers working for you?

« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 12:10:36 am by G0HZU »
 
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Offline roccoTopic starter

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The only pretentious people I see are the ones pretending to be experts on why milling is a waste of time. This seems to happen a lot when PCB milling gets discussed. Clearly a lot of effort has gone into designing and building this piece of equipment although I get the impression that it hasn't been fully trialled yet for various PCB types and PCB designs.

For me, the footless design that uses optical tracking is interesting and so is the use of the oil. However, I would have some doubts how well the oil copes when doing a fairly thorough rubout and I think the manual use of the vacuum isn't attractive in its present guise. But the price looks really low.

How long it lasts before wear becomes an issue would be one concern but I guess this is offset by the low price. My milling machine has lasted over 20 years because I have used it with care and skill and I've serviced it regularly. I've never needed to use any of the parts in the service kit that came with it apart from changing the tiny grub screw for the tool chuck at recommended intervals. The identical model at my place of work only lasted a few years because we made the mistake of letting any engineer play with it. So it inevitably lost performance and was eventually damaged so much the wear and 'lack of true' in the spindle became so ridiculous it couldn't mill anything beyond a basic outline for a tool.

We replaced it with an LPKF machine and only a trained operator is allowed to use it. So despite being used many times a week for maybe 15 years it is still running. It has needed a few repairs in this time but nothing too serious or costly.

Thanks. Just to answer some of the points you brought up...

I'll make a full rub-out video and post it at some point.

There will be a vacuum mount - I just haven't designed it yet so I hold it in the video.

As for machine lifetime, I won't know until they're in the field but I believe that it would be comparable to other professional machines. Even though the price is much lower, I'm still using quality parts. For linear bearings, Prometheus uses precision ground steel linear guides, similar to what you see in LPKF's "educational" line of machines (in fact, I think they are even from the same manufacturer). When the spindle bearings eventually go, it'll be less than $50 to replace the spindle block. The cost of lead screw replacement if ever needed will be about that price also. The lead screws are custom-made in the US. The lead accuracy is +/-.0003 inches/inch. They use anti-backlash nuts on the X and Y axes (Z doesn't need one as the weight of the carriage takes out the backlash). Out of curiosity, did you get that damaged spindle at work replaced? If so, do you remember how much it cost?

Also, just a small correction so no one is mislead - the surface tracking isn't optical. What happens is that Prometheus probes points on the board via electrical contact and creates a surface map. Armed with that surface map, ProCAM projects the 2D tool paths to the 3D surface so the bit follows the hills and valleys.
 

Offline usagi

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that's not backlash. that's skipped steps. backlash does not accumulate, it is a fixed error.
This is not strictly true - the backlash itself doesn't accumulate (except over time with wear) but you can show that backlash can contribute to a cumulative error with the following pseudo code:

the point is an axis can never be more than backlash offset from true position. you can accumulate error but it can never be more than backlash.

Offline mrpackethead

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FR4 dust is abrasive, and needs to be kept away from bearings, so local vacuum extraction is pretty much essential if you want it to last a decent amount of time.

Extremely..   it wears out tools faster than anything else i've ever machined.    Probalby the combination of high speed and small tools doe'snt hlep..   the oil idea is helpful to keep the dust down, but i'm wondering how much oil ends up in the FR4?  and if that is even an issue.
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Offline mrpackethead

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My impression is that just need to hire better, more committed engineers

Yes, i'm always looking for better more committed engineers.  Its a great thing to hire great people.   

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rather than blame the fact that you/they can't make the correct decisions on what tools will or won't work for your business.

We made a decision on buying a mill based on the information that the LPKF distributor provided.  Sometimes you have to trust people.  Sadly that trust was misplaced and the system comp failed to deliver on what it promised.    LPKF aggreed that it did'nt do what was promised either, and refunded our money.  Sadly we wasted a LOT of time, but the right decision then was to quit, and not waste any more time. 

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Telling the rest of the world that milling is a waste of time because it promotes laziness in your engineers doesn't make me think that the problem is with having a fast PCB turnaround.
Sounds like you are content with sloppy work, where you endlessly iterate over a problem just because you can, and you've covninced your self that your making progress becaue youre continastnaly producing new boards..   What i'm interested is shortening the time frame from concept to billing.    Time put in up front to design properly is time ( and money ) well spent 

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It sounds to me like you are spinning a positive (fast turnaround) into a negative/excuse because you have lazy engineers working for you?

Yeah, thats it. We are lazy.  its why we've gone from being a tiny 1 man band to somethign much larger. Its why we have customers who place repeat orders..  If my team is lazy, then i congradulate them for doign what they have done and being able to take the afternoon off to play golf.    < sigh>     

If lazy means, doing your design properly upfront, then we are lazy. 

Anyway im going to be more lazy and call it quits on replying you now, beucase your comments moved from being constructive discussion to something else which im not going to enterrtain.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 01:07:55 am by mrpackethead »
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Offline mrpackethead

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What claim did I make that people are challenging?

The title of your post.

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The title is "Prometheus for Rapid Prototyping - Forget Everything You Know About PCB Milling". If you'd like to know why I said, "Forget Everything You Know About PCB Milling", it's because some people have an impression that PCB milling has to be extremely slow and only produce boards for through-hole components or large SOICs.

I knew this. already, so not sure why you wanted me to forget it.   But what the title asked me to do was also forget that the business case for PCB Milling does'tn work for me.    And that is challenging.   
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Offline mrpackethead

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In summary, PCB milling no longer has to be as slow or as expensive anymore. I won't debate whether it's still too slow or too expensive for any given purpose; that is subjective. It's not for everybody.

Could you tell us who it is for and what use-case it provides a positive return?   I cant' see it, but i'm big enough to know that i dont' know everything and if there is a use-case that might work for me, id love to know what it is. 

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Online G0HZU

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Out of curiosity, did you get that damaged spindle at work replaced? If so, do you remember how much it cost?
I think someone at work replaced a bearing in it and they may have fitted a new motor to it. When the machine was new it came with a spares/service pack including quite a few components from the main head assy.

I actually bought this damaged machine from the company to use as a spares donor for my main T-Tech 7000S machine. I looked through my documentation and I contacted T-Tech UK (Wessex Electronics) back in 2002 to ask how to take the assembly apart to repair it. Their response wasn't very detailed but they did fax diagrams and instructions how to take it apart and reassemble it. This was in May 2002 so I must have bought this 7000S machine around that time. I can't remember how much they quoted for the parts but I think the bearings may be standard types anyway. I've only used this worn/damaged machine for milling basic aluminium tools a few times since I bought it. It definitely isn't repaired properly so it can only do basic milling tasks now.

I bought my first 7000S some time around 2000. The original owner was HP but they hardly used it (they lost the dongle for the SW for one thing) and they traded it in for a modern LPKF machine. I got it cheap because they had lost the parallel dongle for the software.  I quickly managed to hack the Isopro SW so it didn't need the dongle although I inherited our company dongle when I bought the second 7000S machine a couple of years later anyway.

I do remember the UK T-Tech rep saying that the lead screws were quite cheap to replace and I think he may have said the same about the stepper motors. I've got two sets of spares for a lot of the main items in the service packs and so far I've not needed any of them for my main machine :)
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 02:10:46 am by G0HZU »
 
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Offline roccoTopic starter

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In summary, PCB milling no longer has to be as slow or as expensive anymore. I won't debate whether it's still too slow or too expensive for any given purpose; that is subjective. It's not for everybody.

Could you tell us who it is for and what use-case it provides a positive return?   I cant' see it, but i'm big enough to know that i dont' know everything and if there is a use-case that might work for me, id love to know what it is.

Sure. I don't know if there's a use-case that works for you, but I think the best way I can answer the question of who it's for is by telling you who I've seen order one. I've noticed a nice portion of orders have come from electronics consultants. Universities have been another group that have placed orders. The largest business that has ordered is a private aerospace company that will use it for RF designs. It looks like some individuals/hobbyists have even purchased but it's tough to say how many because they might use their personal email address to order but really be consultants are have a small business. It's safe to say they are the minority though, and businesses and universities the majority.

One of the Ivy League schools here and a "makerspace" affiliated with another university inquired, but those did not lead to purchases (they ended up buying a different PCB mill).

I don't really want to opine on general use-cases and positive returns because that's just asking for someone to jump on here and begin arguing, and I'm not really interested in that. On the other hand, actual sales can't be argued with.

I don't know if that's a very satisfying answer. There were also a couple of PCB mill users on here that voiced their happiness with other machines (and of course others that voiced their unhappiness), so maybe some of them can elaborate on specific use-cases and returns for them.

 

Offline mrpackethead

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Sure. I don't know if there's a use-case that works for you, but I think the best way I can answer the question of who it's for is by telling you who I've seen order one.

Not really.. It just tells me whos bought it.  I'm really interested i knowing what and how you would use pcb milling and get a truely postivie return from it, when you consider all aspects of the process of getting from concept to finished product.

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The largest business that has ordered is a private aerospace company that will use it for RF designs.

This does seem like somethign that might be viable, as the pcb is truely part of the 'component' list. ( at least considerably more than than in many designs, where the pcb ).

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I don't really want to opine on general use-cases and positive returns because that's just asking for someone to jump on here and begin arguing, and I'm not really interested in that. On the other hand, actual sales can't be argued with.

The problem is that sadly PCB milling has been sold for a long time, with a lot of hype and its failed to deliver for many folks.     But your asking me to forget that.   So i'm assuming that this system does something different and will deliver something that the others cant.        So far, we know that it might be useful for some RF designs,  but I can't see any use-cases for anything else yet. 



On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 


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