Author Topic: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?  (Read 22985 times)

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Offline cgroenTopic starter

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QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« on: April 21, 2016, 01:51:26 pm »
I pulled myself together and just ordered a QS-5100 reflow oven (based on the positive comments on the forum).
I ordered it from here: http://www.aliexpress.com/snapshot/7592749862.html?orderId=74706341677918

Are there any of you that has some experience they want to share, and especially any tips, warnings, precautions etc ?
Or is it just "working right out of the box" ?

(it seems from the video from Dangerous Prototypes that the temperature is quite a "bit" off, is that so with all the units, or was that just this particular unit Ian tested ?)
 

Offline wraper

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2016, 02:36:17 pm »
Uneven heating guaranteed, and no possibility to visually inspect solder melting process.
 

Offline harry4516

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2016, 11:24:24 pm »
all these ovens are off-temperature.
It needs a couple of test boards to find the right temperature and see if there are any hot/cold spots
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2016, 01:21:04 am »
Hi

It needs the masking tape replaced with Kapton. If you don't it will be a mess when you fire it up.

The time calibration on the profiles is likely off by 2:1. A firmware update will take care of this.

Like all ovens, it has temperature gradients. Don't plan on packing any of them wall to wall with parts.

It is an IR based system so flat black low temp parts right next to gold plated shiny high temp parts ... not going to work

Depending on the fan in your particular example, it may (or may not) be a bit noisy.

It gets the table under is a bit warm. Be a bit careful what you set it up on.

It's a "top heating" device. If you have parts on both sides of the board ... not going to work well.

Lots of fun !!

Bob
 

Offline ar__systems

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2016, 03:20:58 am »
Yeah, I have a similar one, and it barely passable. Ok for small boards, but leave at least 1.5" on all sides.
 

Offline cgroenTopic starter

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2016, 07:21:40 pm »
Thanks for the info, especially from those that actually have the same oven. I'm not planning on using every square inch for PCBs, as long as I can make maybe 4 PCBs (each 2 x 2") at a time I'm happy.
I will do some measurements on it (one of my boards can log and measure temperatures from up to 8 K sensors)
The oven should be with me in a couple of days, then we will see ;)
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2016, 07:59:50 pm »
Hi

Mix of parts and board design are at least as significant variables as board size. A 16 layer board with 10 full layer planes will be a challenge on a lot of machines. Parts with a lot of thermal mass are a challenge to many machines.  If you stick with double sided boards and minimal planes, they will work better on any reflow gizmo. If your parts mix is all ~0805 resistors and caps plus "normal" IC's, that will go through any reflow system easier.

Solder type matters on these ovens. If you are ok with lead solder, it will make using one a much easier task.

All of the IR systems I have used (not just this one) have been better with "parts soldering only on one side" processes. Running double side boards through a single pass reflow is *not* something I recommend. That makes the "one side soldering" a minor issue to me. The risk with this machine is getting cold (frosty) joints on the back side.

Lots of things to watch.

Bob
 

Offline ar__systems

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2016, 08:30:53 pm »
A 16 layer board with 10 full layer planes will be a challenge on a lot of machines.
Let's be realistic here. Nobody will build 16 layer boards and put them into the bottom of the barrel oven.
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2016, 10:20:05 pm »
A 16 layer board with 10 full layer planes will be a challenge on a lot of machines.
Let's be realistic here. Nobody will build 16 layer boards and put them into the bottom of the barrel oven.

Hi

That board might be a challenge for a number of reflow systems. Since this is a "who knows what" sort of dialog ... it's not that bad a "outside the limits" target.

Bob
 

Offline coppice

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2016, 03:26:05 am »
It needs the masking tape replaced with Kapton. If you don't it will be a mess when you fire it up.
Are you confusing this with the T-962?
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2016, 11:12:09 am »
It needs the masking tape replaced with Kapton. If you don't it will be a mess when you fire it up.
Are you confusing this with the T-962?

Hi

My guess was that it had the same issue. The two ovens are very similar.

Bob
 

Offline cgroenTopic starter

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2016, 11:15:49 am »
But, according to the video from Dangerous Prototypes they are in fact NOT the same ?

It would be really cool (no pun intended) if some of the users that actually have this particular oven had some input/experience etc)

Video:
 

Offline zapta

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2016, 11:27:18 am »
An advice from the iantube video, don't place your boards directly on the metal shelf, raise them with small pieces of unused PCB.
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2016, 11:32:15 am »
But, according to the video from Dangerous Prototypes they are in fact NOT the same ?

It would be really cool (no pun intended) if some of the users that actually have this particular oven had some input/experience etc)

Video:


Hi

Interestingly the forum software does not pop that video link up in the normal message listing. No idea why. It's there when I quote your message, so you did indeed link it.

I promise I will never ever give you any more input on any of your questions ...

Bob
 

Offline coppice

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2016, 11:41:27 am »
It needs the masking tape replaced with Kapton. If you don't it will be a mess when you fire it up.
Are you confusing this with the T-962?

Hi

My guess was that it had the same issue. The two ovens are very similar.

Bob
The T-962 and the QS-5100 clearly have some common ancestry, but the QS-5100 appears to be a T-962 with most of the serious shortcomings cleaned up. There are videos like , where someone familiar with the T-962 tears down a QS-5100 and finds it a considerable improvement.
 

Offline cgroenTopic starter

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2016, 11:49:11 am »
Thanks for input! It seems that the temperature is way off on the test shown, maybe it is because of the position of the sensor in the oven? I will try and do some measurements once I get the oven (hopefully the nice DHL guy will show up here in not too long ;) )
 

Offline ar__systems

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2016, 12:52:14 pm »
the temperature will always be off for IR oven. Unless you place thermo-couple on the PCB.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 02:31:51 pm by ar__systems »
 

Offline cgroenTopic starter

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2016, 12:55:20 pm »
the temperature will always be off for IT oven. Unless you place thermo-couple on the PCB.

Are there any possibilities to relocate the sensor in the oven so it can be attached to a PCB on the tray or will one just have to adjust the profiles in the oven so that it follows more correctly (when measuring with a probe on the PCB) ?
Or is this not possible and/or not needed ?
 

Offline zapta

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2016, 07:56:08 pm »


Quote from: uncle_bob I promise I will never ever give you any more input on any of your questions ...

Bob
[/quote

Why? You can give him misleading answers instead.

 

Offline ar__systems

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2016, 11:03:31 pm »
the temperature will always be off for IT oven. Unless you place thermo-couple on the PCB.

Are there any possibilities to relocate the sensor in the oven so it can be attached to a PCB on the tray or will one just have to adjust the profiles in the oven so that it follows more correctly (when measuring with a probe on the PCB) ?
Or is this not possible and/or not needed ?
You can leave with temperature being off... Stay far from the sides. use simple boards. It can work kind of ok. But it is not very consistent. So it is really only ok for prototypes.
 

Offline legacy

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2016, 11:16:25 am »
interesting topics  :D
 

Offline engineer@iotexpert.com

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2016, 02:28:02 pm »
I bought and use this oven.  Like some of you above Mr. Lesnets Dangerous Prototypes review was helpful.

This weekend I put a temperature recording system into mine and made a bunch of runs to see about the temperature.... which turned out very close to correct... and was also very repeatable.

I used the profile from the YT video..
preheat 150/60s
heat 180/58s
solder 210/30s
keep 180
cool 150

Here is one of the plots:


I believe that the oven is does pretty damn close to what it says that it will do.  I don't know that the +6 degrees during the heat phase matters... maybe? 

Certainly, I think that some of the commentary in this thread seems like it is 2nd hand.

Anyway.  You can read about it if you like on my blog https://iotexpert.com/2016/11/28/qinsi-qs5100-sn63pb37-solder-profile/

Alan Hawse
@askiotexpert
http://www.iotexpert.com
 
Alan Hawse
@askiotexpert
http://www.iotexpert.com
 
The following users thanked this post: invzim, NF6X, cgroen

Offline cgroenTopic starter

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2016, 05:21:57 pm »
Brilliant Alan !!
Thanks for the very nice report, very well done!
 

Offline NF6X

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2016, 03:48:40 pm »
I would have joined this thread much earlier if I had noticed it, but I just discovered it after Ian posted a link to Alan's blog post on Twitter. I just don't spend as much time in the EEVBlog forums as I should.

I have both a T-962 and a QS-5100 which have been gathering dust for quite some time. By a funny coincidence, I am also finally getting around to trying to tame the wild temperature profile of my QS-5100, so I was very interested in Alan's recent work. I may not bother to do the same with the T-962, which has dramatically inferior construction to the QS-5100. The T-962 is wrapped with masking tape as many of you know, and its oven drawer window is held in place with hot melt glue! :wtf: The QS-5100 has no such dangerously brain-dead construction features (but it sadly has no oven drawer window at all). I have made tear-down videos of both ovens, which I'll link to at the end of this post. While the two ovens are similar in concept and they can easily be confused with each other at first glance, they're clearly different designs once you take a close look at their innards.

I have a Pax Instruments 4-channel temperature logger, and I'm waiting for some thermocouples to arrive from Digi-Key which are rated for the temperatures they will encounter in the oven. The probes which came with the logger were having trouble in the oven heat. Their cloth jackets char, and one of them became intermittent at high temperature. I'm using multiple probes so I can get a better look at the temperature distribution at different points in the oven. I expect that there are hot and cold spots that I'll need to work around.

I don't have a plot handy, but my first attempt to plot the temperature profile showed that my actual board temperatures were MUCH higher than the oven's profile settings. I was surprised to see Alan's plot showing temperatures much closer to a proper soldering profile. I'll gather more data and share my results once I get my new probes.

I suppose that the easiest fix would be to monkey around with the profile settings until my measured profile is reasonably close to what I want, but I have doubts about the repeatability of such an open-loop approach. I think that I will probably want to replace the oven's thermocouple with one in contact with the board being soldered, rather than hanging in the air right between the two heater tubes. I had an idea about placing a contact thermocouple in the drawer to contact the bottom of the board, but a quick experiment with thermocouples on both sides of a test board showed that would not work much better than the oven's dangling air probe due to the temperature differential between the two sides of the board. That's a shame, because it would have been so convenient to just set boards on top of a sensor mounted in the drawer. I have the beginnings of an idea of how to mechanically mount a thermocouple to make it easy to have it contact the top of the board while making it easy to swap out boards without knocking components off.

Here are my T-962 and QS-5100 teardown videos:



 

Offline engineer@iotexpert.com

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Re: QS-5100 Reflow oven, any tips, warnings etc ?
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2016, 01:44:57 pm »
Quote
I suppose that the easiest fix would be to monkey around with the profile settings until my measured profile is reasonably close to what I want, but I have doubts about the repeatability of such an open-loop approach.

Dont do that...

My data was very stable... I ran it something like 20 times and had basically the same thing going on every time.

I guess that if I were you I would run exactly the same profile that I did... then we can start looking for the differences.. firmware version, thermocouple, cold junction...  board version...  I guess Id like to see a plot of your data.  Im not sure what you mean by "wild temperature profile"

I think that if you are using a leaded solder... then it would be much better not to re-engineer the temperature measurement profile.

I would be open to working on an open source oven controller to retrofit into that oven....   

Do you think that the design of the IR tubes is correct?  i.e. is the platform sound sans temp measurement.
Alan Hawse
@askiotexpert
http://www.iotexpert.com
 


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