SmallSMT - Discussion Thread.

[Smallsmt]

Here is a first working video for my old VP-2500D belt machine I use for demonstration and prototyping jobs.

Thanks for the video, i always like to see this kind of machine works.

I do not understand how the cover peeling work, why the plastic tape cover "inflated" all together before the feeding action?

Can't see it clearly, seems the camera angle is too low.

-ichan

Ichan,
the cover tape is first released before pushing the tape to keep the pocket closed.
After push cycle finished the cover tape is pulled back to open the pocket.

Best Regards
Michael

[thommo]

I've often wondered what keeps the tapes in place/position?

With an independent feeder, it is clearly the 'sprocket' wheel which does the locking.

I can't see any mechanical locking device in this system.
So, what stops the tape from moving [backwards or forwards] and 'locks it into place' as the cover is peeled, and the components are being picked?

Here is a first working video for my old VP-2500D belt machine I use for demonstration and prototyping jobs.

Thanks for the video, i always like to see this kind of machine works.

I do not understand how the cover peeling work, why the plastic tape cover "inflated" all together before the feeding action?

Can't see it clearly, seems the camera angle is too low.

-ichan

Ichan,
the cover tape is first released before pushing the tape to keep the pocket closed.
After push cycle finished the cover tape is pulled back to open the pocket.

Best Regards
Michael

[Smallsmt]

MrP, your Taobao link leads to a Yushengtech listing.

Why do you assert Yushengtech is ripping off the design? He's already stated he works with Yushengtech. Right here in this thread:

Maybe i'm wrong.  But its very unclear who owns the IP.  The Chinese company "SmallSMT".. ( being trying very hard to verify its existance ), or YS ( who appear to be a bonafide company..     I struggle to understand how the machine that sells for aound $5,500 sells for $10,000 when its sold outside of china.   Yeah we all need to make a margin.. but in todays global markets you just can't hide that..      Micheal just needs to put an end to the speculation simply by answering a few simple questions...

1. whats the AIC number of SmallSMT
2. whats the business address of SmallSMT
3. ( Thommos question ).. Who owns the IP

These are not hard questions I woudl have thought.    Every factory visit i've made in china, the companys have their AIC certificates proudly on display in their entry way.  ( same goes for lots of buiness's actually )..  You see on Yungshungs web page they have a link to the AIC authority..

My last reply to this topic:
1. SMALLSMT is a sales office in China and general sales agent for foreign countries for YUSHENGTECH
If you need I write an german invoice for you! TAX number DE126805807  349/5040/1007

2. YUSHENG and SMALLSMT are developing together and I never said i own YUSHENGTECH's IP
3. Our company address is right and shown on our website
#202 B,Nan bingjiang building,xin feng village ,Feiyun Town, Rui'an City, Wenzhou City, Zhejiang Province, China 365207
4. We have a 30% sales margin and need to cover the warranty, after sales support and all advertising costs / discounts so what's your problem you are working for free?

[Smallsmt]

I've often wondered what keeps the tapes in place/position?

With an independent feeder, it is clearly the 'sprocket' wheel which does the locking.

I can't see any mechanical locking device in this system.
So, what stops the tape from moving [backwards or forwards] and 'locks it into place' as the cover is peeled, and the components are being picked?

There are springs on top of the tape holding it down and apply some friction.
Last year I did a slow motion video for my old drag feeder machine showing the complete cycle.
https://youtu.be/uXZsBRifWc0

[Smallsmt]

 

[alexanderbrevig]

Just read through this thread, and at page five I almost pulled the trigger. Now I'm through it all and my enthusiasm is dead...
Choosing is an elimination game so I guess I can thank you for self-elimination. 

[sparkswillfly]

...

It's not as straightforward as a standard reseller or affiliate because it appears that he has made contributions to hardware and software design improvements.  I am not even sure you get the exact same hardware and software if you buy the YS version.  And the support is probably much better, especially if you don't speak chinese.  Certainly it's OK to be concerned with the business structure/details but would be nice to focus on the performance of the machine itself.

The recent demo video is good, showing a lot of closely spaced parts but no fine pitch ics.  Would also like to see some statistics on mispicks, drops, and placement errors over say 10000 parts.

[Smallsmt]

I am not even sure you get the exact same hardware and software if you buy the YS version

If you buy a chinese version you receive Chinese manual, different translation files, limited warranty, chinese support and finally machine need to stay in China.
For all other countries we are responsible And Yusheng will forward you to SMALLSMT.

The recent demo video is good, showing a lot of closely spaced parts but no fine pitch ics.  Would also like to see some statistics on mispicks, drops, and placement errors over say 10000 parts.

I show some fine pitch examples in 3 to 4 weeks after my new machine is calibrated.

The mispicks depends on the nozzle quality and part size and will be compensated by some pick up strategies.
We try to access a part 3 times (adjustable in the basic settings) and if it can't be picked up it's possible to advance the tape to access the next part.
After this fails the machine stops and ask for a fix.

Parts where dropped if not adjustable within the choosen precision ranges. If you increase the precision setting you receive more drops.
If the machine dropped a part on movement you need to decrease the acceleration but normally you don't receive part drops on movement.

Placement errors depend on 6 problems:
1. Fast changing ambient light conditions (Sun light from side) drop the vision alignment precision
2. If you pick up the part outside of the center the part may change position on placement
3. Wrong height settings
4. Z speed too high
5. Paste mask not ok.
6. wrong nozzle size for the part

If you use a well adjusted machine the over all error rate on 10000 components should be 0,05%.

Most of the machine stops will be cause by re reeled components because of different extensions and feeder problems caused by oversized tapes ....

[mikeselectricstuff]

If you use a well adjusted machine the over all error rate on 10000 components should be 0,5%.

WTF ? so on a board with 200 parts I will on avarage get a problem on every board.. 

[mikeselectricstuff]

The mispicks depends on the nozzle quality and part size and will be compensated by some pick up strategies.
We try to access a part 3 times (adjustable in the basic settings) and if it can't be picked up it's possible to advance the tape to access the next part.
After this fails the machine stops and ask for a fix.

Is there no option to tell it to automatically continue with the next feeder and deal with all the errors afterwards ?

[Smallsmt]

If you use a well adjusted machine the over all error rate on 10000 components should be 0,5%.

WTF ? so on a board with 200 parts I will on avarage get a problem on every board.. 

Sorry 0,05% 

[Smallsmt]

The mispicks depends on the nozzle quality and part size and will be compensated by some pick up strategies.
We try to access a part 3 times (adjustable in the basic settings) and if it can't be picked up it's possible to advance the tape to access the next part.
After this fails the machine stops and ask for a fix.

Is there no option to tell it to automatically continue with the next feeder and deal with all the errors afterwards ?

Sorry we dont have this function now.

Yesterday I placed 7120 parts and had 4 stops. Two of them because material finished.

[Smallsmt]

VP-2500HP running a 0402 double head placement job

https://youtu.be/cJUuk533XpU

And a new VP-2500D belt machine doing a mixed placement job (yusheng front sticker!)

https://youtu.be/-hweqX_Nbh8

[Ichan]

The last video is very good 

I will say that a PnP machine which reliably pick SOT23 is a good machine. As implied on its name, accurate placement of a PnP machine is only half of the business, the other half is reliability and consistency on picking the parts.

-ichan

[thommo]

Red board at about 7 minute mark.
Large components in vert row on right hand side.
Looks to be same issue with same components on PCB in machine too.

Just had quick look but surprised to see small components looking good and these large components which were vision assist positioned out of place ?

VP-2500HP running a 0402 double head placement job

https://youtu.be/cJUuk533XpU

And a new VP-2500D belt machine doing a mixed placement job (yusheng front sticker!)

https://youtu.be/-hweqX_Nbh8

[Smallsmt]

@Thommo I think that's a configuration problem because of mid point definition maybe I ask Li tomorrow!

[thommo]

OK - would be good to know, but unusual because SOME of the components are OK and others are WAY OFF placement.

I assume that they are all from the 'same pick', and are the 'same component'.

It's the inconsistency that is of concern here. Please let's know what you find.
Like I said, it occurred on both the boards - both in the machine, and the close up afterwards.

In the RED board video;
5:30 on the board in the machine, and 7:00 on the reflowed board
[which appears to show 1 component completely off the pad altogether]

I don't see what 'mid-point definition' or otherwise has to do with this problem Michael, as these components are placement-determined with machine vision on. It should therefore not matter if they are picked from dead-center, or on the corner - the machine vision compensates for this [or at least it should].

I also see that the current design in this machine contemplates a 4x head PnP [according to the front panel vacuum status indicators]
When can we see this model released from Yusheng?

@Thommo I think that's a configuration problem because of mid point definition maybe I ask Li tomorrow!

[48X24X48X]

7:00 on the reflowed board

Diode D14 right?

[ServoKit]

It perfectly possible that the part was placed correctly and knocked off the pad when the PCB was taken out of the machine and put into the oven. Can easily happen. The paste only holds so much.

Regards, Axel

[Smallsmt]

I understand Q14 but I think there maybe  2 reasons

1. Wrong height definition for the part need more force to push in paste.
2. The nozzle used maybe have no suction cup to improve the friction under the nozzle.

[thommo]

Can't read the designator on my phone, but I'm referring to the large components in the vertical column.

See position 5:30 in the RED video [from memory] where the board is still in the machine, and these parts have just finished getting placed.

It perfectly possible that the part was placed correctly and knocked off the pad when the PCB was taken out of the machine and put into the oven. Can easily happen. The paste only holds so much.

Regards, Axel

[Smallsmt]

I hope my new VP-2800HP will be finished end of the week and we can do some videos and pictures in China.
One week later it will arrive in Germany and I can do some special videos to show fine pitch placements.

[thommo]

Hi Michael
I asked about the 4 head model a few days ago ...

"I also see that the current design in this machine contemplates a 4x head PnP [according to the front panel vacuum status indicators].
When can we see this model released from Yusheng"

Will this machine that you're waiting on have 4 heads?
If not, is this option available now?

What is current lead time for 2800HP with 4 heads?
How many different nozzles does the 4 head nozzle changer hold?
Do you have any photos of the 4 head unit or new nozzle changer?

[Smallsmt]

Only for a VP-2800D

https://twitter.com/SMALLSMT/status/661215051538395137

https://twitter.com/SMALLSMT/status/661684902514040836

[Smallsmt]

Hi Peter,
here are my answers:

[qoute]
"I also see that the current design in this machine contemplates a 4x head PnP [according to the front panel vacuum status indicators].
When can we see this model released from Yusheng"
[/quote]
Every V2 machine controller supports up to 4 heads and we use the same controller in every new machine so you will see 4 vaccuum indicators.

Will this machine that you're waiting on have 4 heads?
If not, is this option available now?

The new machine is a VP-2800HP and we will not add the 4 head feature to this kind of machine because need too much space and we need to increase the machine design again.
Our two head design using the nozzle changer is a better overall solution.
We will release the 4 head machine as belt machine soon but the timeline is shifted because we had to solve some V2 controller problems first. But now fixed!

What is current lead time for 2800HP with 4 heads?

The lead time for a VP-2800HP 2 head is 3 to 4 weeks.
But if you like we build a custom machine having 4 heads for you (take about 6 weeks). (but remember your workspace decrease!)

How many different nozzles does the 4 head nozzle changer hold?

You can store 3 nozzles one place need to stay free for nozzle exchange.

Do you have any photos of the 4 head unit or new nozzle changer?

The nozzle changer pictures can be found in our websites gallery http://www.smallsmt.biz/home/gallery/

Our 4 head prototype system can be viewed in  a video on twitter https://twitter.com/SMALLSMT/status/701527444453519364

I don't know if we release the 4 head machine need to discuss with the community about the advantages to do.

The VP-2000D is a non selling product too so we dislike to add another bad selling product.