SmallSMT - Discussion Thread.

[mrpackethead]

Moving the off topic discussion from the Neoden 4 Thread to over here.

[spool_of_wire]

Yes, to the best of my knowledge Michael designed it and was going to have it made in China and then have a later model made in Germany. I think costs were going to be too high (I'm guessing at this part) so he partnered with someone in china and he's doing the design / support / software work in Germany but the actual product is built in China.

Here is the original thread where he started talking about it:

http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=6477&sid=b5fa37d5a57cd46cf57f365f7278d83e

His original site was smallsmt.com (that site now points to his updated site smallsmt.biz)

He was going to name them something like SMT500D, SMT700 SMT600 (I might be somewhat off on the numbering) The 600 was the latest model (and better than the 700 but I degress) He was working on it for a while and then suddenly he released the VP2X00D (basically put VP for Visoin Placer in the front.) He though there were a lot of other pnp machines with similar names so different would help prevent confusion - which I really appreciated.

Anyway I was interested in his SMT600 (or was it SMT600D?) but with the newer models I'm interested in the one with the highest capacity of parts.

Here's the thread where he later announced the actual product:

http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=7340&sid=b5fa37d5a57cd46cf57f365f7278d83e

Anyway, that's the best I understand about it's history. I've been following it since the original thread and he sounded like he might be willing to let me get it piece by piece as my budget allowed. I just can't drop 10k on a machine all at once at this time. I was thinking I could get just the basic largest machine available and then gradually add a side of feeders or something as my funds allowed. He seemed to make it sound like the software was pretty capable of allowing different setups. but again I haven't seen the software and I believe English is his second language (which is muchbetter than my German) so I take what I hear with a grain of salt   

Also he claims the numbers of parts per hour are the actual numbers and not a "potential" number. If he's posting real numbers rather than just trying to paint a pretty picture that makes me lean towards his machine since he being upfront and honest - another thing I like especially when buying something from China. Again I'm not building a million boards so if it take 10 minutes - or 15 minutes to build up a board that won't bother me too much at this time.

For me I'm trying to work on a product and start selling it so I can't afford to stock full reels of the expensive parts all at once. So I won't  be building up a lot of boards at a time. I'm more inclined to build up one or maybe two boards at a time. Or first just have the machine put on the small "cheap" parts I can afford like 0603 resistors and place the rest by hand and eventually (as funding allows) get more parts in stock and on the machine and buy additional pneumatic feeders as required.

But what I was really wondering is if it could be set up in the program to do a single board. then if I needed to do 2 boards just lay a second board next to it. or if I wanted to do 4 I could lay 4 boards next to each other in a square. (sort of cheating at a 2 x 2 array but not nearly as precise as an array from a fab) He made it sound like his software could make it so it checked the fiducials on each board individually and adjust each board accordingly. For me that's huge, so I have a machine that could build up a single board just fine, or I could lay 4 of them in there and let it run for 40 minutes or so and then that's it. I plan on using this machine for a small (in the basement) setup so for me that sounded ideal.

Again, I've never seen the software or the machine (other then the dropbox videos he posted of the machine running - didn't see software) so I can't give any really good first hand experience. but if you are able to check out an actually live setup I would LOVE the feedback as this sounds like the best / most flexible option of a machine. Especially since he seems pretty dedicated to working on it and improving it. Plus the few people that have commented about the machine have said his help has been awesome.

The other thing I liked about the machine was you got the pneumatic feeder for each side of tapes you're going to use and you're good. So I thought that was really great because if you had all the parts for 3 sides of tapes you had 81 feeders (or whatever the number was). How this works with larger size tapes I'm not sure - but that's another question I'll have to figure out.

Whether or not the pneumatic feeders are better than the other types of feeders out there I don't have a clue - this is where my inexperience with pnp machines shows.
 
One other thing I noticed is it seem to require a high volume of compressed air to run. Perhaps it's because of those pneumatic feeders? but I really don't know. I have a smaller type compressor that's really nice and quiet but if I can't use it and have to buy a larger one with a higher air volume I will. A new compressor is way less expensive than a pnp machine.

Anyway that's about all I know about it's history but any info you're able to get I'd appreciate.

-J

[Smallsmt]

Hi,

the machine picture you show is the new 4 head prototype we release the machine in May.

Our current machines look like this:
VP-2500D  Belt machine stepper motors


VP-2500HP Ball screw spindle servo motors


We have a lot of informations on our website please read the know how section too.

Yesterday I did some videos for the current VP-2500HP Ball screw spindle, servo motors on x and y axis, and linear guidings.
The result was impressive the machine can place 0402 using vision in perfect quality and running high speed without vision in good quality.

This machine is fast and precise we reach 3600 cps / h using one head and it's possible to use the second head together to increase the speed.
If you run our machine on mid speed using vision for every part you reach up to 2700pcs / h using one head.

Please view my Twitter postings showing videos and placement results.
https://twitter.com/SMALLSMT

Vor a VP-2500D customers report please read Alans feedback
http://www.smallsmt.biz/customer-report-allan/

You find us here www.smallsmt.biz

In the next months we add vibration feeder and nozzle changer to our machines.
It is possible to upgrade your machine at any time.

If you have any question feel free to ask me!

I have an good overview of the market and used Neoden machine before too.
Last year I visited Neoden and Qihe factory.

This was my first machine construction




Best regards
Michael

[Smallsmt]

I forgot to answer the question sorry!

>>Whether or not the pneumatic feeders are better than the other types of feeders out there I don't have a clue - this is where my inexperience with pnp machines shows.
 
The cheap machines including neoden TM245P / TM240 / Quihe TVM802 / Charming High CHMT36 .... have drag feeder using a solenoid to push a needle inside the traktor hole and drag the tape using the head mechanics. On feeder problems you may loose the head position and second problem the needle shaft is not very precise for moving.
 
>>One other thing I noticed is it seem to require a high volume of compressed air to run. Perhaps it's because of those pneumatic feeders? but I really don't know. I have  a smaller type compressor that's really nice and quiet but if I can't use it and have to buy a larger one with a higher air volume I will. A new compressor is way less expensive than a pnp machine.

You only need a small silent air compressor because we have vaccum generators inside consuming less air so you need a small compressor delivering 6Bar 110L/minute oil free compressed air.

[rwb]

@SmallSMT  The more i look at your machines the more I like it's features.

Looking at my current design I have a tad over 100 different parts which I'm sure can be brought down to 80 some parts which would allow me to load your machine with all parts and complete the board without having to load new parts into and run the board 2 different times.

I also have radial CAP's that are 10mm high and your machine picks up parts that are up to 12mm high so its nice that the machine could place the caps also. With the CharmHigh & Neoden 4 machines the max part height is 5mm so I was going to have to place the Cap's by hand.

I wanted to ask you about how much more accurate using the screw drive and linear rails are vs using the Belt Drive that most other systems use. The CharmHigh vision system now has encoders which I think is ideal for a belt drive but can you educate us on why you made the machine using the screw drive?

I have a laser cutting machine that uses belt drive and it has worked perfectly for years now. I have CNC machine that uses screw drive and it works perfectly for years now also. I do see most professional PNP machines using the linear slides and screw drives so it must be best.

Also you say on your website that you using your machines to professionally produce finished PCB's and you would not sell a machine that you were not personally happy with. That is good to hear, is there any way you could share some pictures and video of the production runs and boards that your machines are producing?

Is your PC software open source or is it something custom? Do you consider it better than the PC software that comes with the NeoDen 4 based on what you have seen or do you know?

I think the more you can share via pictures and videos of the machine in action the more people you will have interested in buying one. There are quite a few options on the market now in the 5-10K price range so its getting harder for the beginner to choose which is right for them and as a beginner it's important that we get it right since most of us are working with limited budgets.

Stuffing boards sucks when your doing it by hand so the demand for the machines will never go away.

Sorry for all the questions but I'm sure I'm not the only person wanting to know all the details.

[Smallsmt]

I also have radial CAP's that are 10mm high and your machine picks up parts that are up to 12mm high so its nice that the machine could place the caps also. With the CharmHigh & Neoden 4 machines the max part height is 5mm so I was going to have to place the Cap's by hand.

The machine can take parts 10mm height but you need to take care to avoid collisions. I think the modern caps can replace your 10mm height component at 6.6mm height which is much better for your placement.

I wanted to ask you about how much more accurate using the screw drive and linear rails are vs using the Belt Drive that most other systems use. The CharmHigh vision system now has encoders which I think is ideal for a belt drive but can you educate us on why you made the machine using the screw drive?

First of all you need to know a belt machine need to be calibrated because the belt length change over time. A belt need to be replaced too depend on your usage.
So you loose precision over time and need to adjust from time to time. Second problem is the belt machine loose precision if the speed is high because if the head need to stop it swings around the position. A ball screw machine stops immediately. We add the servo motors to our high precision machine because you suppress the vibration of the placement system caused by a stepper belt drive combination. So finally if you add the linear guide you achive the best precision over time especially if machine runs on high speed too.
A lasercutter has the advantage to cut when moving and it is mostly traveling one direction so if it stops the laser stop too. That's a different way of use.

Also you say on your website that you using your machines to professionally produce finished PCB's and you would not sell a machine that you were not personally happy with. That is good to hear, is there any way you could share some pictures and video of the production runs and boards that your machines are producing?

I showed some things on Twitter but I prepare some vidos and results soon.

Is your PC software open source or is it something custom? Do you consider it better than the PC software that comes with the NeoDen 4 based on what you have seen or do you know?

I think neoden 4 software is at the beginning and need some care to get finished but I believe our software is more user friendly.
We are now running our software for more than one year and it's been used on more than 140 machines so I can say it's not perfect but well tested.
The main problem of an integrated pc is the machine vibration and you need to maintain two systems as manufacturer.
As I asume Neoden software is running on windows XP did you ask if the software is licensed? And how about the network functions of an unsupported operating system?
We use an external PC and a windows 7 up to windows 10 compatible software build in dotnet.
Our main knowledge is inside this software so we can't share the source sorry!

I think the more you can share via pictures and videos of the machine in action the more people you will have interested in buying one. There are quite a few options on the market now in the 5-10K price range so its getting harder for the beginner to choose which is right for them and as a beginner it's important that we get it right since most of us are working with limited budgets.

I think the main problem is to buy a machine without the knowledge to operate.
We offer a online web training free of charge and before you buy the machine too!
We have operating manual and maintainance manual in english for our machine.
So you know all advantages and disadvantages before you buy!
I didn't cover our disadvantages.

Neoden 4 has a nice conveyor function if you need to produce long PCB we can build up to 360x500mm PCB's.

The addressable clear tape peel off is nice too because Neoden 4 can move a single feeder line to peel of the tape we can only run the peel off for the whole feeder on one side this can cause a tape cut on unused feeder after some time.

Modular feeder is only an option for Neoden 4 machine because you can't move out feeder and reel together. It's only to have a flexible configuration for your machine to apply different feeder sizes before you mount all the reels. A bigger pnp machine use a feeder cassette to carry the reel too.

We have a similar placement speed for a single or double head operation depend on the distance the head need to travel.
The feeder count on our machine is higher depend on machine and feeder size we can use up to 93 Feeder 8mm lines in one placement job.

Neoden 4 can take a picture for all 4 nozzles at one time we need to take the pictures in a line.

We add a nozzle changer soon and it is possible to upgrade any machine in field.
The vibration feeder on south side is coming too.
And for the last point I think our HP machines are nice because of ball screw spindle, servo drives, and linear guides. I was impresssed about the precision and performance compared to our belt machines.

So finally it depends on your needs which machine is better for you.

Best regards
Michael

[mikeselectricstuff]

I also have radial CAP's that are 10mm high and your machine picks up parts that are up to 12mm high so its nice that the machine could place the caps also. With the CharmHigh & Neoden 4 machines the max part height is 5mm so I was going to have to place the Cap's by hand.

The machine can take parts 10mm height but you need to take care to avoid collisions. I think the modern caps can replace your 10mm height component at 6.6mm height which is much better for your placement.

That is not an acceptable answer to the question of max height. Max height is the tallest part that can be placed with no risk of collision in any circumstance, typically 50% of the nozzle travel height across the panel.
If there is some way to support taller parts then this should be stated as additional functionality along with any constraints (e.g. whether supported by feeders, whether placement needs to be in a specific order etc.)

And how exactly do you "take care to avoid collisions"? Does the software support automatic or manual path planning?

[Smallsmt]

@Mike

yes we are planning to do a function to avoid collision but now you are able to sort your parts by selecting different placement strategy.
You can use the partname field to do a different sort order too by applying a sorting key.

I do a video for the tall parts soon to show the travel range.

[Smallsmt]

We use a 1.6mm PCB for the test.

Here you see a 6,3mm cap under the nozzle >5mm space left under the part and 10mm cap on the right side.



Here you see a 10mm cap under the nozzle >1mm space left under the part and 6.3mm cap on the right side.


So if you have a lo of tall parts you need to take care but the machine can move and place!

[mikeselectricstuff]

The problem with dealg with it by sorting placement order is dealing with mis-picks etc. that need to be placed after everything else.
The point of a P&P is that it can be left to get on with the job with minimum attention.
Therefore when a feeder runs out, or you get too many retries, it should not stop, but continue with the next part, until it has placed everything possible, and then alert the operator that some parts were not placed, so the problems can all be sorted out at once and the board completed.

[Smallsmt]

The problem with dealg with it by sorting placement order is dealing with mis-picks etc. that need to be placed after everything else.
The point of a P&P is that it can be left to get on with the job with minimum attention.
Therefore when a feeder runs out, or you get too many retries, it should not stop, but continue with the next part, until it has placed everything possible, and then alert the operator that some parts were not placed, so the problems can all be sorted out at once and the board completed.

Nice idea Mike but  I did not know a machine in this segment which can do like this.
If you have a cover tape the machine need to stop because if you don't care many other problems occur.
What's the real problem you receive cut sheet parts and the stripes will be re reeled so you have the extension problem maybe to thick and tape hangs or the cover tape was extend using a glue tape and maybe cuts or glues on a useless position.
The machine didn't know the strength of problem.

On feeder pickup errors you have a lot of options to prevent the machine to stop.
1. the pick up retry count limit
2. the feed limit count if the first pick up limit was reached you can define how many parts will be feed and pickup retries occur until machine stop.
3. the vacuum detection switch limit to detect if a part hangs under the nozzle.

We are talking here about prototyping machines the have a limited feature set but if customers need a function and are willing to pay for it everything is possible.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Nice idea Mike but  I did not know a machine in this segment which can do like this.
If you have a cover tape the machine need to stop because if you don't care many other problems occur.
What's the real problem you receive cut sheet parts and the stripes will be re reeled so you have the extension problem maybe to thick and tape hangs or the cover tape was extend using a glue tape and maybe cuts or glues on a useless position.
The machine didn't know the strength of problem.
[/quote ]
All these are singe-lane issues, so there is no reason it can't carry on with other parts

In my experience, with my machine (Versatronics RV4) which does this, it generally makes sense - you just leave it going and deal with all issues in one go afterwards . By far the majority of errors are things that only affect a single lane, so carrying on with other parts is the best strategy.

On feeder pickup errors you have a lot of options to prevent the machine to stop.
1. the pick up retry count limit
2. the feed limit count if the first pick up limit was reached you can define how many parts will be feed and pickup retries occur until machine stop.
3. the vacuum detection switch limit to detect if a part hangs under the nozzle.

None of these help if the problem is that parts have run out, or the tape is jammed.

We are talking here about prototyping machines the have a limited feature set but if customers need a function and are willing to pay for it everything is possible.

It's just a simple software feature so no reason it should add any cost.

It would be good to at least have the option for the user to specify the action on error - stop, or continue with other parts.
All you need is the ability for it to flag parts that haven't been placed.
Consider the situation where the machine is located in another room, or even the other side of the room.  Do you want to get up to go fix every issue as it arises, or once to fix everything at the end when most of it is done?

[Smallsmt]

@mike
I put it on the customer feature request list thank you for the idea.

[Smallsmt]

We solve the 10mm part placement problem by moving the nozzle to -5mm z axis position while moving so we receive 6mm free height under the part. It should be easy to avoid the collision if the 10mm part is 6mm above the pcb surface.

[Smallsmt]

The Z axis can move -15mm but head 2 moves down to so I decided to use -5mm to keep 10mm distance between head 2 and the pcb surface.
If we have the nozzle changer the second nozzle can be send to the nozzle cart and we have enough space left for single head operation.
We are discussing now how to add this Z axis feature to our machine.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The Z axis can move -15mm but head 2 moves down to so I decided to use -5mm to keep 10mm distance between head 2 and the pcb surface.
If we have the nozzle changer the second nozzle can be send to the nozzle cart and we have enough space left for single head operation.
We are discussing now how to add this Z axis feature to our machine.

Would an option be to simply not fit the second nozzle?

[Smallsmt]

Yes the only problem is you need to change manually.

[Smallsmt]

I just finished a test our VP-2500HP spindle machine can place 0201 parts using vision system alignment!

www.twitter.com/smallsmt

This is the result 0402 and 0201 resistors placed at mid speed 0.6 x 0.3mm sized parts!

[Smallsmt]

Does the 2500 and 2800 work pretyt much the same way, with the differnece just being the size of the workspace and the number of reels on the machine.

The High Precision machine VP-2500HP and VP-2800HP work the same way because have spindle and servo motors and linear guides.

Our mid range VP-2X00D machine has it's limit placing 0402 components because it's a belt machine using microstepping stepper motors.

But we have a common software and vision system all machines have the same features only different precision and placement quality.

Please compare the 0402 placement results for our belt machines (VP-2000D, VP-2500D, VP-2800D) in our know how section http://www.smallsmt.biz/home/know-how/vp-2500d-0402-placement-test/

We offer a wide range of different working table sizes and feeder configurations.



Only the 2500 / 2800 range offer up to 3 side feeder and High Precision mechanics plus servo motors on X / Y - axis. (VP-2500HP, VP-2800HP)

I do some placement and software videos next week too busy just now sorry!

Machine descriptions http://www.smallsmt.biz/home/vision-placer-vp-2x00d/

Shop catalog http://www.smallsmt.biz/shop-catalog/

VP-2500HP machine used for this test run.



Top view of VP-2500HP machine having 3 side feeders.

[es]

Moving the off topic discussion from the Neoden 4 Thread to over here.

Are the three slots pictured in the four heads prototype machine used to route the spent component tapes underneat the machine?

The spent component tapes management on the current machines doesn't seem very practical IMO. It's an area I'd like to see improved before considering getting such a machine.

[Smallsmt]

Are the three slots pictured in the four heads prototype machine used to route the spent component tapes underneat the machine?

The spent component tapes management on the current machines doesn't seem very practical IMO. It's an area I'd like to see improved before considering getting such a machine.

The current tape routing works perfect for West and North feeder only if you use the East feeder it cause a problem.
The East feeder should not be used to place a lot of parts in one placement job so you need to cut the waste tape ever 100 pcs maybe.

Now we try to route the waste tape down under the machine so our 4 head prototype will be the first time we use this way.
If it works we add this feature to the other machines too.

[rwb]

I have to admit your machine does hit the spot in many different ways like Good Software, Tons of Feeders, 12 mm max part height, ect......

Looking forward to seeing the machine videos once you get them done.

[Smallsmt]

@rwb

The maximum part height is 10mm because you need some space under the part for movement but up to 7mm is preferred now (for VP-2X00D machines!).
We try to improve soon using a head retract mode the head will stay on -5mm Z-axis position while moving so it should be possible to place 12mm tall parts and keep more than 5 mm under the part to avoid colissions.

[Smallsmt]

There is an important change for VP-2500HP and VP-2800HP we can take 10mm tall parts and the space left between PCB and part is 5mm.
So the total range is 15mm!

VP-2500HP taking a 10mm tall cap!

[Smallsmt]

Here is the result of my placement tests today.

I took the picture using  a lens in front of the camera!

This is a professional placement result!

We placed 0402 at different speed and 0201 at mid speed.

[thommo]

There is an important change for VP-2500HP and VP-2800HP we can take 10mm tall parts and the space left between PCB and part is 5mm.
So the total range is 15mm!

VP-2500HP taking a 10mm tall cap!

I think the point of the question SmallSMT is the maximum height component which can be placed at anytime, onto any area of the board.

It is great that you can select a 10mm high component, but as you're aware, this component could not actually be placed on any board confidently [without logical software-determined path control and placement-order management], which had several other components of the same size. It appears with a total operating height of 15mm, the largest safe component would be ~7mm in height [allowing for ~1mm of component separation at 'fly-over' points].

PS:
The 'new May scheduled machine' looks like a big move in the right direction.
Any thoughts about introducing a linear encoder on the rails?

[Smallsmt]

@thommo
I think it's ok if you have 5mm space left under a 10mm component to place at any place on the board.(using HP machine!)
The tall parts will be placed at the end and you can change the placement order to solve the problem!
We support different placement strategies to avoid collisions.
I don't know any prototyping machine below 15000usd having path control!

I don't know why you need linear encoders on the rails we have feed back servo motor and spindle how should this increase the precision???

We don't want to place below 0201 components.
Do you use a pnp machine for prototype productions? I use and build my boards every week and i know the requirements for this kind of machine.
If you need to fulfill this requirements spend 30000 - 100000 usd and buy a professional pnp machine you will receive all of this functions!

Best regards
Michael

[Smallsmt]

I forgot to post this picture

We placed 0402 at different speed and 0201 at mid speed.

[Smallsmt]

We have Chinese New Year Promototion for our VP-2X00D belt machines!.

Please visit our shop http://www.smallsmt.biz/shop-catalog/

[coppice]

I thougth you were a German Company? Why are you having a CNY sale?

Because he's monkeying with the prices?

[Smallsmt]

I thougth you were a German Company? Why are you having a CNY sale?

Because SMALLSMT is a chinese company we show on our website clearly like NEODEN and other too ...

So it's normal to do a promotion!

We offer a big discount for the belt machines and you find working videos in http://www.smallsmt.biz/home/know-how/

Because he's monkeying with the prices?

So what's your problem?

[Smallsmt]

@mrpackethead

I'm sorry I'm currently sick.
I hope to start working on Saturday again.

And second problem my VP-2500HP was sold need to wait for a new one.
I took some videos placing 0201 and 0402 parts but you had special requests so I need to wait for the new machine.
Our Nozzle changer is working now I received the first working video on our 4 head prototype.
The machine controller is upgraded now to support up to 4 heads and vibration feeders too.

Best regards
Michael

[Smallsmt]

We show our new nozzle changer at 4 head prototype machine on twitter.

www.twitter.com/smallsmt

All HP machines will receive the nozzle changer for free!

The new machine controller supports upt to 4 heads, the nozzle changer and a vibration feeder.

Best regards
Michael

[Smallsmt]

@mrpackethead

How about the videos that you promised three weeks ago..

And second problem my VP-2500HP was sold need to wait for a new one.

I take the videos you need if my new VP-2800HP machine arrive as I wrote before! (in 4 weeks!)

In my office are only 2 belt machines left! (VP-2500D and VP-2000D)

Here is a first article in the know how section of our website showing how to align BGA on bottom camera 2.
I do some more articles soon showing QFN and smaller BGA's.

http://www.smallsmt.biz/home/know-how/bga-alignment/

Best regards
Michael

[Smallsmt]

I can do the UI video's next week I am after one week non working very busy to finish all jobs!

We normally use a web meeting for demonstration.

Best regards
Michael

[es]

Michael,

Can you give us some general description/specifications of the reflow oven you plan to offer? It's listed for Q1 2016 on your web site but no details at all. Is it a entirely new design or it's based or similar to some chinese reflow ovens that are already available.

Also, do you still plan to offer a frameless stencil printer? I've seen some pictures of it: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37962674/Stencilprinter_V1_1g.126.jpg

Thanks.

[Smallsmt]

Hi es,

I finished a new reflow controller design to use for a hot air reflow oven.

Some things changed after our first planning and we will release a vapor phase reflow in the next 8 weeks at 1500€ price level build in Europe. We have a partner company to do this it's Marc from IMDES.

The frameless stencil printer is still to expensive to produce because of the custom parts we used.
I stopped the development because my first plan was to release a printer for 650USD but my design will cost more than 1000USD now!

So our development will be focussed on PNP machines.
We extend our range soon.

Best regards
Michael

[Smallsmt]

How will the stencil be fixed inside the frame?

[Smallsmt]

This is a preview of the controller UI.
- web upgrade for the software
- paste profiles download from website
- complete remote access from any Webbrowser based device
- 4 channel JK temperature sensor
- 8 Channel heater driver
- Stepper motor driver to move the pcb inside the oven
- optional webcam support for remote view
Based on Raspberry PI 2 computer and capacitive touch panel plus DSP based main controller board.


http://www.smallsmt.biz/reflow-simulator

[thommo]

Hi Michael,

What is IMDES?
The Vapor Phase solution sounds exciting.
Is it being designed as a small batch oven - for single panels, or as a conveyor type continuous feed oven?

Do you have any pics, drawings or renders you can share at present?

We are in the market at present.

Hi es,
I finished a new reflow controller design to use for a hot air reflow oven.
Some things changed after our first planning and we will release a vapor phase reflow in the next 8 weeks at 1500€ price level build in Europe. We have a partner company to do this it's Marc from IMDES.

The frameless stencil printer is still to expensive to produce because of the custom parts we used.
I stopped the development because my first plan was to release a printer for 650USD but my design will cost more than 1000USD now!

So our development will be focussed on PNP machines.
We extend our range soon.

Best regards
Michael

[TJ232]

This one looks interesting too at €599.17: https://eleshop.eu/vapour-phase-mini-condens-it.html

I have used VP Reflow process in LAB environment many years ago for some very expensive PCB's and IC's soldering and what I remember exactly about the process was the insane high quality of the solder joints, perfect temperature control and the VERY HIGH Operational cost.

In the case of the above, not clear max PCB size, cost of 500ml Galden, €189.26 : https://eleshop.eu/vapour-phase-galden-ls-230-liquid-500ml.html

If this is the Galden cost only for 100 PCB's, this is not for mass cheap production but for fancy stuff as I rememeber about.

[Smallsmt]

Yes the Mini-condense-it is from Mark (IMDES) we are currently improving the design for a industrial solution I show some pictures soon after we finished the construction.

I hope to find time this weekend to edit the first UI video.

[thommo]

This sounds great SmallSMT,

While we wait for the images and manufacturing to be sorted out and become production-ready, can you please tell us what additional 'features' the new design will incorporate, along with the specs? There are a few of us keen to make a purchase 'now', and will possibly consider an advance order to you if you convince us it is worth waiting for.

Please let's know the details and features ASAP.

Some things changed after our first planning and we will release a vapor phase reflow in the next 8 weeks at 1500€ price level build in Europe. We have a partner company to do this it's Marc from IMDES.

[Smallsmt]

@thommo
The construction will be finished in the next 4 weeks.
I post a preview this week before I go to hospital.
I get the gallbladder removed next week.

Best regards
Michael

[thommo]

Hi Michael,
Firstly, good luck, and I wish you a speedy recovery with the procedure.

I saw mention of an 'improved' machine, but no real specs or details regarding the fundamental things like max PCB, etc.

The existing machine IMDES produce has a very small potential PCB area and is therefore limiting. What size will the new machine load, does it have mechanised lifting, etc?

If figured that with the increase in cost from approx 600 Euros to 1500 Euros, that there would be significant modifications.

Please let's know.

Would be good to learn more about your mention of working on the NeoDen platform with us too.

@thommo
The construction will be finished in the next 4 weeks.
I post a preview this week before I go to hospital.
I get the gallbladder removed next week.

[Smallsmt]

Hi Thommo,

the new vapor reflow will handle bigger pcb sizes we discuss on Saturday with Marc.
The complete case will be changed so all components are inside. We add some security features and change the pcb holder.
I don't know if we implement the new reflow controller at this price level but we wan't to add a pcb elevator to support temperature profiles for sensitive parts.
For the bigger machines it will possible to add a water chiller to speed up the process.

For the Neoden 4 problem I want to start a developers group to build a common PNP machine software supporting many different machines. ( Free for all people supporting the project! I thought about a Kickstarter project or a donation based system to the developers)

First, we create a requirements specification ud then divide the work.

In my opinion we are able to support open source hardware controllers too for all makers who want to build their own pnp machine.
My dream for the product range is a simple design for 2000USD build in a rugged case for prototyping  in a small office (After use, you put it on the shelf) and on the other end of the range a 120 modular feeder professional system.

Maybe we support retro fitting old pnp machines too.
The software design will use a hardware abstraction layer and a clear user interface supporting plug ins.
So it's possible to support all different feeder types from strip, drag feeder, push feeder and finally feeder modules.
I dislike to support multi platform development the software should be based on C# c++ in Dotnet and OpenCV for the vision system.
Because a windows license is so cheap and the development system is stable.
The software testing and distribution is simple too.

Best regards
Michael

 

[thommo]

Michael,

I'll look forward to seeing the new Vapor Phase reflow solution in about 4 weeks then I guess.

We can continue to discuss the SW development after you've had time to recover buddy.

Separate issue, can you please confirm the cost of shipping the Stencil Printer [advertised on your site] to Melbourne Australia, and what carrier you use & expected delivery time?

[Smallsmt]

@thommo

Please enter your information in our webshop and use email checkout.
Sunny will reply to you soon.

I think if we use the stencil frame from http://www.quickstencil.com/proframe1217.aspx  it could be a nice solution.

Best regards
Michael

[thommo]

Hi Michael,
I hope your recovery is coming along well.

Can you pls post some pics/renders, and specs for the new VP oven now?

The new vapor reflow will handle bigger pcb sizes we discuss on Saturday with Marc.
The complete case will be changed so all components are inside. We add some security features and change the pcb holder.
I don't know if we implement the new reflow controller at this price level but we wan't to add a pcb elevator to support temperature profiles for sensitive parts.
For the bigger machines it will possible to add a water chiller to speed up the process.

[Smallsmt]

Hi,

I am out of hospital now and need to recover the next 2 weeks.

We had some  problems for our new 4 head machine controller (V2) but mostly fixed now.

So we can use all new options on any machine like nozzle changer, up to 4 heads drive, 22 line additional pneumatic feeder support, vibration feeder.
Wasted tapes are now moving through the machine body to avoid tape crossing from west to east feeder.


Best regards
Michael

[Smallsmt]

Hi Thommo,

I didn't work on VP oven in the past two weeks.

But now we speed up the development for the VP oven.
Some sample parts arrived for the automatic elevator.

Best regards
Michael

[thommo]

Thanks for the update MICHAEL. Glad you've recovered now and back at it again.

It doesn't sound like you have an actual Industrial Design for the oven yet though. Are you just making it up as you go along?

I'd have thought if you had a design already, that getting some specific details would have been possible - and some renders too.

Let's know pls.  Thnx

I don't know how long we can wait ... without knowing what we're waiting for.

[Smallsmt]

@Thommo I want to finish the design in the next 4 weeks.

This is the DSP controller for the oven

[thommo]

Michael,

I don't think I can wait for this unfortunately.

On the 7th March you said construction will be finished in 4 weeks - so in about 2 weeks' time. At that point you already knew about having to take time out for personal reasons I think.

Now you are saying that the 'design' should be finished in 4 weeks - from today so around 20th April, and then construction.

It doesn't appear very well planned unfortunately.

@Thommo I want to finish the design in the next 4 weeks.

This is the DSP controller for the oven

[Smallsmt]

Sometimes more important things happen!
I went to hospital this changed my normal schedule

[thommo]

Hmmm - yes, I understand that'll change things but, I thought you had already considered this into your timing when you wrote :

"@thommo
The construction will be finished in the next 4 weeks.
I post a preview this week before I go to hospital.
I get the gallbladder removed next week."

Sometimes more important things happen!
I went to hospital this changed my normal schedule

[Smallsmt]

@Thommo Do you need the elevator inside the vapor phase oven?

[thommo]

Yes Michael, that's how you described the oven I believe.

But really, aside from this one thing, I have no other information or specs about it.
Lifting boards in molten state without this would be too unreliable based on my research.

@Thommo Do you need the elevator inside the vapor phase oven?

[Smallsmt]

I use a ball screw spindle and stepper drive too for the elevator.

This is my pcb holder design:

[thommo]

Looks good, but a fair way still to go I think.
What are the intended max PCB dimensions?

Expensive parts to fabricate Michael - you may want to consider using standard, readily available Stainless Steel mesh/grid seated into a rebate in the top plate, and secured with 6 bolts from underneath [where they are all hidden]. One piece and one machining process!

I use a ball screw spindle and stepper drive too for the elevator.

This is my pcb holder design:

[thommo]

Agree - like this small batch reflow from EuroCircuits
http://www.eurocircuits.com/ec-equipment-ec-reflow-mate

and their Pre-Heater table
http://www.eurocircuits.com/ec-equipment-ec-pre-heater

that design is not going to work well for double sided boards.  The cross rails you've got in the there will mean you can't have the boards lying down flat. 

You need to have some adjustable rails or moveable standoffs, to make this work.   Look at how some of the Stencil printers arrange this.

[thommo]

Take a look at the EuroCircuits 'reflow mate PCB holder' for their oven - this is what I was referring to [also]

My intial thoughts where to use the rails like in the preheater, but that does restrict you to having to have boards with straight egdes.. that maybe or maybe not an issue.

Agree - like this small batch reflow from EuroCircuits
http://www.eurocircuits.com/ec-equipment-ec-reflow-mate

and their Pre-Heater table
http://www.eurocircuits.com/ec-equipment-ec-pre-heater

that design is not going to work well for double sided boards.  The cross rails you've got in the there will mean you can't have the boards lying down flat. 

You need to have some adjustable rails or moveable standoffs, to make this work.   Look at how some of the Stencil printers arrange this.

[Smallsmt]

Hi,
I used a well tested design because we had a problem on our first test run using the condense it vp oven from mark.
The sheet metal was bend after heat applied and many parts jumped from the PCB.
I rethink about a punched metal sheet inside the holder frame.

[Smallsmt]

Here is a 0402 placement video using vision alignment more than 100 pcs placement!

The machine shows all new improvements like West and East tapes are moving now through the machine body.
We have add nozzle changer to all HP machines for free now!


https://youtu.be/_loKdD-Pgrs

[mikeselectricstuff]

Seems to spending a long tome at the camera.
And WTF is with the blue LEDs on top of the head ?

[thommo]

Hi Michael,

Congrats on the new machine. Like MrP said, it's quiet by comparison. Would be great if you were able to replace that solenoid in the peeler with something quieter too.

The video says 0402, but the footprint silk screen description say 0603. It looks like they are 0603s - is that correct?

Any reason that only a single head is used in the demo?
Can you load both heads from the same feeder, and image them, then place them before returning to the feeders?

Is the idea of 2 cameras to enable different fields of view? What is the largest single component you can image and load? We would like to load modules also if it were possible.

Like MrP asked, what are the plans for the tape peeler to stop fatigue and eventually breakage with seldom used components?

Have you considered rearranging the LEDs in the bottom cameras into linear rather than circular design to unify the light better and reduce reflections?

How do I modify the feeder formats/tape sizes? For instance, if I need to add say 2 more 16mm feeders and an extra 12mm feeder for a job.

Here is a 0402 placement video using vision alignment more than 100 pcs placement!

The machine shows all new improvements like West and East tapes are moving now through the machine body.
We have add nozzle changer to all HP machines for free now!

[Smallsmt]

Seems to spending a long tome at the camera.
And WTF is with the blue LEDs on top of the head ?

The machine did offset and angle alignment for 0402 chip!
This take some time but if you use and I7 instead of the used I3 it will be much faster 

[Smallsmt]

Hi Michael,

Congrats on the new machine. Like MrP said, it's quiet by comparison. Would be great if you were able to replace that solenoid in the peeler with something quieter too.

The video says 0402, but the footprint silk screen description say 0603. It looks like they are 0603s - is that correct?

Any reason that only a single head is used in the demo?
Can you load both heads from the same feeder, and image them, then place them before returning to the feeders?

Is the idea of 2 cameras to enable different fields of view? What is the largest single component you can image and load? We would like to load modules also if it were possible.

Like MrP asked, what are the plans for the tape peeler to stop fatigue and eventually breakage with seldom used components?

Have you considered rearranging the LEDs in the bottom cameras into linear rather than circular design to unify the light better and reduce reflections?

How do I modify the feeder formats/tape sizes? For instance, if I need to add say 2 more 16mm feeders and an extra 12mm feeder for a job.

Here is a 0402 placement video using vision alignment more than 100 pcs placement!

The machine shows all new improvements like West and East tapes are moving now through the machine body.
We have add nozzle changer to all HP machines for free now!

The machine was placing 0402 on a 0603 footprint!
This video was a function check for a customer machine so we didn't use the double head mode.
I thought it could be interesting to show the machine is reliable accessing and placing the small components.

Our vision system needs no even light so we don't improve this.

We have no plans to improve the clear tape winder it will increase the machine price again!

If you need a different feeder configuration you need to buy a different feeder block but it's possible to change.

[Smallsmt]

 

The warning on the front needs a grammar check.

" Keep in a safe distance " ...    ??

Any suggestion for a correct message?

[Smallsmt]

Thank you!

[Smallsmt]

The cover tape of unused line can break after some thousand access cycles.
One option is to sort the parts on different feeder sides depending on usage.
Another way is to take out the cover tape if line is unused.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Seems to spending a long tome at the camera.
And WTF is with the blue LEDs on top of the head ?

The machine did offset and angle alignment for 0402 chip!

Why does that make a difference? - it should go the the camera, wait just long enough for it to stop moving, grab a frame, then immediately start moving towards the placement position while doing the recognition and calculating the correction ready for when it arrives. 
If it's doing any recognition before moving that's just slowing things down unnecessarily.

[Smallsmt]

Seems to spending a long tome at the camera.
And WTF is with the blue LEDs on top of the head ?

The machine did offset and angle alignment for 0402 chip!

Why does that make a difference? - it should go the the camera, wait just long enough for it to stop moving, grab a frame, then immediately start moving towards the placement position while doing the recognition and calculating the correction ready for when it arrives. 
If it's doing any recognition before moving that's just slowing things down unnecessarily.

The complete alignment will be finished over the bottom camera and it's done in steps.
First step is offset correction next steps for angle correction.
We need to compensate all errors using the bottom camera.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Seems to spending a long tome at the camera.
And WTF is with the blue LEDs on top of the head ?

The machine did offset and angle alignment for 0402 chip!

Why does that make a difference? - it should go the the camera, wait just long enough for it to stop moving, grab a frame, then immediately start moving towards the placement position while doing the recognition and calculating the correction ready for when it arrives. 
If it's doing any recognition before moving that's just slowing things down unnecessarily.

The complete alignment will be finished over the bottom camera and it's done in steps.
First step is offset correction next steps for angle correction.
We need to compensate all errors using the bottom camera.

By "step" do you mean it takes more than one image ?
If so that's somewhat inefficient and unnecessary - why would you do it that way?
All you need is one image, from which you can measure all the offsets ( and do it while moving off).

[thommo]

Hi Michael,

To confirm [I think I understand it] we need to buy a new feeder block, containing a predefined set or configuration of tape widths. So if we needed for a particular job a wider distrubition than in the North station, we'd need to remove East or West stations to do so.

They can't be modified adhoc, or other than in predetermined sets?

Thanks

Hi Michael,

Congrats on the new machine. Like MrP said, it's quiet by comparison. Would be great if you were able to replace that solenoid in the peeler with something quieter too.

The video says 0402, but the footprint silk screen description say 0603. It looks like they are 0603s - is that correct?

Any reason that only a single head is used in the demo?
Can you load both heads from the same feeder, and image them, then place them before returning to the feeders?

Is the idea of 2 cameras to enable different fields of view? What is the largest single component you can image and load? We would like to load modules also if it were possible.

Like MrP asked, what are the plans for the tape peeler to stop fatigue and eventually breakage with seldom used components?

Have you considered rearranging the LEDs in the bottom cameras into linear rather than circular design to unify the light better and reduce reflections?

How do I modify the feeder formats/tape sizes? For instance, if I need to add say 2 more 16mm feeders and an extra 12mm feeder for a job.

Here is a 0402 placement video using vision alignment more than 100 pcs placement!

The machine shows all new improvements like West and East tapes are moving now through the machine body.
We have add nozzle changer to all HP machines for free now!

The machine was placing 0402 on a 0603 footprint!
This video was a function check for a customer machine so we didn't use the double head mode.
I thought it could be interesting to show the machine is reliable accessing and placing the small components.

Our vision system needs no even light so we don't improve this.

We have no plans to improve the clear tape winder it will increase the machine price again!

If you need a different feeder configuration you need to buy a different feeder block but it's possible to change.

[Smallsmt]

The cover tape of unused line can break after some thousand access cycles.
One option is to sort the parts on different feeder sides depending on usage.
Another way is to take out the cover tape if line is unused.

Does this actually become a real problem, or one that only occurs peridoically.

In my case only peridoically but it depend on feeder line usage and configuration!

[Smallsmt]

Hi Michael,

To confirm [I think I understand it] we need to buy a new feeder block, containing a predefined set or configuration of tape widths. So if we needed for a particular job a wider distrubition than in the North station, we'd need to remove East or West stations to do so.

They can't be modified adhoc, or other than in predetermined sets?

Thanks

Hi Michael,

Congrats on the new machine. Like MrP said, it's quiet by comparison. Would be great if you were able to replace that solenoid in the peeler with something quieter too.

The video says 0402, but the footprint silk screen description say 0603. It looks like they are 0603s - is that correct?

Any reason that only a single head is used in the demo?
Can you load both heads from the same feeder, and image them, then place them before returning to the feeders?

Is the idea of 2 cameras to enable different fields of view? What is the largest single component you can image and load? We would like to load modules also if it were possible.

Like MrP asked, what are the plans for the tape peeler to stop fatigue and eventually breakage with seldom used components?

Have you considered rearranging the LEDs in the bottom cameras into linear rather than circular design to unify the light better and reduce reflections?

How do I modify the feeder formats/tape sizes? For instance, if I need to add say 2 more 16mm feeders and an extra 12mm feeder for a job.

Here is a 0402 placement video using vision alignment more than 100 pcs placement!

The machine shows all new improvements like West and East tapes are moving now through the machine body.
We have add nozzle changer to all HP machines for free now!

The machine was placing 0402 on a 0603 footprint!
This video was a function check for a customer machine so we didn't use the double head mode.
I thought it could be interesting to show the machine is reliable accessing and placing the small components.

Our vision system needs no even light so we don't improve this.

We have no plans to improve the clear tape winder it will increase the machine price again!

If you need a different feeder configuration you need to buy a different feeder block but it's possible to change.

Thommo I think you need a production machine not a prototyping one.
We release a new machine using yamaha CS feeders end of the year.
Maybe this is a better solution for you.

[Smallsmt]

Seems to spending a long tome at the camera.
And WTF is with the blue LEDs on top of the head ?

The machine did offset and angle alignment for 0402 chip!

Why does that make a difference? - it should go the the camera, wait just long enough for it to stop moving, grab a frame, then immediately start moving towards the placement position while doing the recognition and calculating the correction ready for when it arrives. 
If it's doing any recognition before moving that's just slowing things down unnecessarily.

The complete alignment will be finished over the bottom camera and it's done in steps.
First step is offset correction next steps for angle correction.
We need to compensate all errors using the bottom camera.

By "step" do you mean it takes more than one image ?
If so that's somewhat inefficient and unnecessary - why would you do it that way?
All you need is one image, from which you can measure all the offsets ( and do it while moving off).

Yes Mike it takes more than one image!
But it's necessary to do a lot of calibrations and you need index sensor on A- axis if you want to do so. ( and remember a calibration for each nozzle too!)
We decided to go the easy way and it's working well like this.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Seems to spending a long tome at the camera.
And WTF is with the blue LEDs on top of the head ?

The machine did offset and angle alignment for 0402 chip!

Why does that make a difference? - it should go the the camera, wait just long enough for it to stop moving, grab a frame, then immediately start moving towards the placement position while doing the recognition and calculating the correction ready for when it arrives. 
If it's doing any recognition before moving that's just slowing things down unnecessarily.

The complete alignment will be finished over the bottom camera and it's done in steps.
First step is offset correction next steps for angle correction.
We need to compensate all errors using the bottom camera.

By "step" do you mean it takes more than one image ?
If so that's somewhat inefficient and unnecessary - why would you do it that way?
All you need is one image, from which you can measure all the offsets ( and do it while moving off).

Yes Mike it takes more than one image!
But it's necessary to do a lot of calibrations and you need index sensor on A- axis if you want to do so. ( and remember a calibration for each nozzle too!)

Why would you need an index sensor ? Assuming your rotation axis is a stepper, you know the angle per step.
And you would only need nozzle calibration if there was significant runout on the nozzle.
 

We decided to go the easy way and it's working well like this.

..except that it's slower than it could be.

[thommo]

Hi Michael - I don't suppose you have ANY details on that NEW machine yet huh?

Like anticipated number of feeders for example?

Are the Yamaha feeders you're referring to pneumatic or elec/mech type, or still undecided?

Thommo I think you need a production machine not a prototyping one.
We release a new machine using yamaha CS feeders end of the year.
Maybe this is a better solution for you.

[Smallsmt]

Hi Michael - I don't suppose you have ANY details on that NEW machine yet huh?

Like anticipated number of feeders for example?

Are the Yamaha feeders you're referring to pneumatic or elec/mech type, or still undecided?

Thommo I think you need a production machine not a prototyping one.
We release a new machine using yamaha CS feeders end of the year.
Maybe this is a better solution for you.

Thommo we use yamaha CS pneumatic feeders and the maximum feeder count is 128 x 8mm lines for our biggest machine.
You can upgrade the machine in groups by 8 feeder.
The base machine support up to 64 feeder on ones side and the biggest machine have two groups of 64 feeder on North and South side.
The maximum PCB size will be 350 x 700mm.
Placement range will be from 0201 to 30x30mm parts.
Starting point is 20000USD!
 

[thommo]

OK Michael
You have my attention.

Will it be a similar design to your current machine?
Will it have rail/conveyor system?
What is the reason for using pneumatic feeders, and advantage over elec/mech type?
Screw thread ball drives?
Encoders?
Aluminium or granite bed?
Existing software like current machines?
What month 'later his year'?

Thanks

Hi Michael - I don't suppose you have ANY details on that NEW machine yet huh?

Like anticipated number of feeders for example?

Are the Yamaha feeders you're referring to pneumatic or elec/mech type, or still undecided?

Thommo I think you need a production machine not a prototyping one.
We release a new machine using yamaha CS feeders end of the year.
Maybe this is a better solution for you.

Thommo we use yamaha CS pneumatic feeders and the maximum feeder count is 128 x 8mm lines for our biggest machine.
You can upgrade the machine in groups by 8 feeder.
The base machine support up to 64 feeder on ones side and the biggest machine have two groups of 64 feeder on North and South side.
The maximum PCB size will be 350 x 700mm.
Placement range will be from 0201 to 30x30mm parts.
Starting point is 20000USD!

[Smallsmt]

>>Will it be a similar design to your current machine?
Based on HP machine technology but completly different frame setup

>>Will it have rail/conveyor system?
Conveyor system is possible as upgrade option

>>What is the reason for using pneumatic feeders, and advantage over elec/mech type?
The price and easy interface??? and you can buy from different sources! professional design!
Well tested and reliable technology and modular design you can take out the complete feeder carrying the wheel!

Yamaha CL feeder from 8mm up to 56mm wide


>>Screw thread ball drives?
Same as HP machine yes

>>Encoders?
Same as HP machine feed back servo drive no extra linear encoders planned

>>Aluminium or granite bed?
granite bed  yes need to place 50000cph
Aluminium machine based on a frame contruction closed working area build in Germany.

>>Existing software like current machines?
yes we use the same

>> What month 'later his year'?
I told you we release END of the year!

[Smallsmt]

>>Its odd for a Chinese Company to be building in a high cost location like Germany? Are you ditching your chinese manufaturing?
No we only add a third line of products especially for Europe customers so it's a good solution to build the heavy chassis in Europe to reduce shipping costs.
Our Chinese partner don't need this kind of machine.
And finally we close the gap between the prototyping machines and the smaller professional machine from Juki / Samsung ...
We don't want to build a high speed machine we want a flexible reliable solution for a good price.
And because of the modular design a future upgrade is possible.

[Smallsmt]

The machine stops if the line was accessed and the cover tape not removed.
To repair this problem you need to advance the tape for some parts and feed the tape in the winder again.
You have many options to prevent this case:
1. Arrange the parts on the different feeder sides
2. Take out the cover tape of unused lines
3. Remove the complete tape of an unused line

[Smallsmt]

Our Chinese partner don't need this kind of machine.

Is SmallSMT a chinese company or a german company?  THis is very cofusing.

I think it's easy to understand we are a Chinese company sales office and manufacturing located in China.
I am German so I stay most of my time in Germany run our support and control the development.

[Smallsmt]

This is a preview for the nozzle changer and vibration feeder function.



https://youtu.be/AYg5mWZnSvk

[Smallsmt]

This problem happens after thousands of access cycles so it is not a real problem!
I always tell our customers all advantages and disadvantages.

[Smallsmt]

Yes the cover tape slips between the 2 saw tooth wheels when it reaches the end.
But on each access cycle the tape moves forward and back for the complete feeder side.
Our advantage is we can control the tape length to open different sized pockets and reduce the overrun by using a short retract length. It is also possible to control the speed and acceleration of the tape for sensitive parts.
The only option is a type of clutch and maybe it's possible to enable using the push feeder head.
But my favorite solution is a modular feeder cassette.
And finally if your machine setup is good the unused tape maybe cut after more than 2500 access cycles.
Remember a normal setup use the West feeder for common parts placements and North / East feeder for special parts. I never had a tape cut on my north feeder.

[thommo]

MrP,

As I understand, this it what occurs.

There is only one drive for the tape peeler, and it is common for all reels on that side of the machine.

It is a spindle that runs through the centre of the peeler's toothed gear.

Engagement between the spindle and gear is friction only  - there is no key way. Friction is relatively firm I imagine, and sufficient to peel off the tape.

Assuming that only 1 feeder is accessed per component pick then, although the spindle rotates to remove the tape on that feeder, all other tape peelers try to rotate simultaneously. The others can't peel any tape however because their tape is not advanced - no components are removed from their feeder.

So the tension is applied at the jaw where the tape and cover separate. If this happens frequently enough, the tape fatigues at the jaw and finally shears the cover material like a cutting blade.

Michael says it only happens after thousands of cycles, but if you intend leaving your machine setup and loaded for multiple jobs, and other jobs that consume 'thousands' of components, then those unused, or used less frequently become potential candidates I guess.

It doesn't take long to run 'thousands' of components.

So it all depends on your projects.

My main concern is the lack of flexibility is making up the 'mix' of component tape widths. It seems I would lose the advantage of the extra standard maximum qty of feeders right there. Hence I'm looking for a machine that advances tape and cover in sync, and one with individual cartridge feeders ideally.

[thommo]

Michael,

Where does the 'spent tape' actually 'go' after it disappears through the slot?

Who writes the software for these machines - is it you or the machine manufacturer?

Is there a vibrator mechanism in the vib feeder, or does it rely largely on low friction and gravity?

Have you used the Yamaha feeders ever? How noisy are they compared to the solenoid tape peeler/feeder?

[thommo]

Michael - a couple of questions that didn't get addressed in previous post.

1.  Can you load both heads from the same feeder, and image them, then place them before returning to the feeders?

2.  Is the idea of 2 cameras to enable different fields of view? What is the largest single component you can image and load? We would like to load modules also if it were possible.

Hi Michael,

Congrats on the new machine. Like MrP said, it's quiet by comparison. Would be great if you were able to replace that solenoid in the peeler with something quieter too.

The video says 0402, but the footprint silk screen description say 0603. It looks like they are 0603s - is that correct?

Any reason that only a single head is used in the demo?
Can you load both heads from the same feeder, and image them, then place them before returning to the feeders?

Is the idea of 2 cameras to enable different fields of view? What is the largest single component you can image and load? We would like to load modules also if it were possible.

Like MrP asked, what are the plans for the tape peeler to stop fatigue and eventually breakage with seldom used components?

Have you considered rearranging the LEDs in the bottom cameras into linear rather than circular design to unify the light better and reduce reflections?

How do I modify the feeder formats/tape sizes? For instance, if I need to add say 2 more 16mm feeders and an extra 12mm feeder for a job.

Here is a 0402 placement video using vision alignment more than 100 pcs placement!

The machine shows all new improvements like West and East tapes are moving now through the machine body.
We have add nozzle changer to all HP machines for free now!

The machine was placing 0402 on a 0603 footprint!
This video was a function check for a customer machine so we didn't use the double head mode.
I thought it could be interesting to show the machine is reliable accessing and placing the small components.

Our vision system needs no even light so we don't improve this.

We have no plans to improve the clear tape winder it will increase the machine price again!

If you need a different feeder configuration you need to buy a different feeder block but it's possible to change.

[Smallsmt]

Michael,

Where does the 'spent tape' actually 'go' after it disappears through the slot?
Yes through the slot under the machine there is a tunnel.

Who writes the software for these machines - is it you or the machine manufacturer?
Our Chinese manufacturer / partner

Is there a vibrator mechanism in the vib feeder, or does it rely largely on low friction and gravity?
There is a vibration motor in the bottom

Have you used the Yamaha feeders ever? How noisy are they compared to the solenoid tape peeler/feeder?
Yes I did some test runs the are working nice

[Smallsmt]

MrP,

As I understand, this it what occurs.

There is only one drive for the tape peeler, and it is common for all reels on that side of the machine.

It is a spindle that runs through the centre of the peeler's toothed gear.

Engagement between the spindle and gear is friction only  - there is no key way. Friction is relatively firm I imagine, and sufficient to peel off the tape.

Assuming that only 1 feeder is accessed per component pick then, although the spindle rotates to remove the tape on that feeder, all other tape peelers try to rotate simultaneously. The others can't peel any tape however because their tape is not advanced - no components are removed from their feeder.

So the tension is applied at the jaw where the tape and cover separate. If this happens frequently enough, the tape fatigues at the jaw and finally shears the cover material like a cutting blade.

Michael says it only happens after thousands of cycles, but if you intend leaving your machine setup and loaded for multiple jobs, and other jobs that consume 'thousands' of components, then those unused, or used less frequently become potential candidates I guess.

It doesn't take long to run 'thousands' of components.

So it all depends on your projects.

My main concern is the lack of flexibility is making up the 'mix' of component tape widths. It seems I would lose the advantage of the extra standard maximum qty of feeders right there. Hence I'm looking for a machine that advances tape and cover in sync, and one with individual cartridge feeders ideally.

>>So the tension is applied at the jaw where the tape and cover separate. If this happens frequently enough, the tape >>fatigues at the jaw and finally shears the cover material like a cutting blade.

That's not the problem only the slipping between the sawtooth wheels damage the clear cover tape!

[Smallsmt]

1.  Can you load both heads from the same feeder, and image them, then place them before returning to the feeders?

Yes the machine take 2 parts from the same feeder and move to camera adjusting both in two steps

2.  Is the idea of 2 cameras to enable different fields of view? What is the largest single component you can image and load? We would like to load modules also if it were possible.

We use different magnification to improve precision for small parts.

Have you considered rearranging the LEDs in the bottom cameras into linear rather than circular design to unify the light better and reduce reflections?

There is no need to improve the light now the vision system has no problems.

How do I modify the feeder formats/tape sizes? For instance, if I need to add say 2 more 16mm feeders and an extra 12mm feeder for a job.

You buy a special feeder layout at the order time. But if you need to change you can mill a feeder by yourself or buy a different feeder block. It's easy to change it's hold by 6 screws. After changing the feeder block you need to adjust the feeder lines using camera. If you repeat this some times you should add two dowel pins for proper alignment.
Some user did custom feeder blocks by themselves.

And if you dislike the cover tape winder you can add your own solution it's easy to separate from the machine and add a custom solution. Future upgrades possible too.

[Smallsmt]

You can visit me in Germany for a demonstration if you need 

[Ichan]

How about you make some demonstration video yourself? A real job from start to end is what people waiting for.

-ichan

[Smallsmt]

I think we have a lot of informations on our website and videos too.
That should be enough!

[Ichan]

None i saw doing a real assy job, that just not enough to convince anyone.

I do really interested to see it.

-ichan

[Ice-Tea]

You can visit me in Germany for a demonstration if you need 

Where in Germany exactly?

[Smallsmt]

In Bielefeld near Hannover

[elgonzo]

In Bielefeld near Hannover

People, don't get fooled! Bielefeld does not exist. 

[Ice-Tea]

In Bielefeld near Hannover

That'd not too bad! Could go to Cebit one day and say Hello! I'll keep that in mind.

[Smallsmt]

In Bielefeld near Hannover

People, don't get fooled! Bielefeld does not exist. 

  old joke

[thommo]

Hi Michael - I'm confused why you insist this is an example of the machine placing 0402 passives.

The footprint clearly says '0603' and they 'fit' that footprint correctly.

Beside that, the PnP component list describes the components as being 0603 also.


Many of us would be really interested in purchasing a machine like this, but our biggest concern is support - both pre & post sales.
These and other videos are really helpful, but there is very little benefit in posting 'demo' videos like the ones on your website, where the menu and the voice over is all in Chinese.

Are you going to invest in English version of these videos, or do we need to continue to guess what is being said and told to us in the demos?

Finally, I'm still wanting to know WHERE the TAPE goes to AFTER it enters the SLOT.
Does it just curl up inside the body of the machine?
If it feeds out of the machine once it has gone through the slot, then where does this exit occur?

Actually, another question - you have said in several posts now that the machine's software is 'open' via APIs.
Where can we view a list of the controls and commands available via this interface?

I see the software application is written in Visual Studio, so it would be a tremendous benefit if critical parts of the app were accessible - even if via APIs.

Here is a 0402 placement video using vision alignment more than 100 pcs placement!

The machine shows all new improvements like West and East tapes are moving now through the machine body.
We have add nozzle changer to all HP machines for free now!


https://youtu.be/_loKdD-Pgrs

[Smallsmt]

Dear Andrew,

- You've told us that your a chinese company,  and your sales office is in China, but when i asked to see the machine, you told me i would have to come to germany.  Sorry thats just odd. 
I clearly tell all customers, and in our meeting I told you too, we are a chinese company having German support!

- You originally told us that you do the software development, but recently said that the Chinese partner does it?
I am responsible for the machine software development!
You know the work of a team manager?

- We are still waiting for the video of the UI that you promised ages ago.
I don't like to show our Software in a public video, because many people only like to copy our functions and workflow.
We spend a lot of time to develop this system and interested customers can review it in a web meeting.

Best Regards
Michael

[Smallsmt]

Hi Michael - I'm confused why you insist this is an example of the machine placing 0402 passives.

The footprint clearly says '0603' and they 'fit' that footprint correctly.

Beside that, the PnP component list describes the components as being 0603 also.

You can hear clearly the machine only use the push feeder every second part.
Our pneumatic push feeder advance the tape by 4mm so it's clearly a 0402 placement on a 0603 decal!

Many of us would be really interested in purchasing a machine like this, but our biggest concern is support - both pre & post sales.
These and other videos are really helpful, but there is very little benefit in posting 'demo' videos like the ones on your website, where the menu and the voice over is all in Chinese.
Are you going to invest in English version of these videos, or do we need to continue to guess what is being said and told to us in the demos?

We use a different way to support our customer!
1. Web meeting before buy to explain all functions and show hardware and software working!
2. Our customer receive manuals!
3. Every customer receive support by using email or web meeting.

Please compare to our competitors!

Finally, I'm still wanting to know WHERE the TAPE goes to AFTER it enters the SLOT.
Does it just curl up inside the body of the machine?
If it feeds out of the machine once it has gone through the slot, then where does this exit occur?

The tape moves through a tunnel under the machine. We use this for West and East feeder configurations. You need a special table plate to support.

Actually, another question - you have said in several posts now that the machine's software is 'open' via APIs.
Where can we view a list of the controls and commands available via this interface?
I see the software application is written in Visual Studio, so it would be a tremendous benefit if critical parts of the app were accessible - even if via APIs.

I asked for developers to build a software supporting hardware abstraction layers and open API to support different pnp machines.
And I like to support this development.

[Smallsmt]

I can do the UI video's next week I am after one week non working very busy to finish all jobs!

We normally use a web meeting for demonstration.

Best regards
Michael

^^^^ Seems not

I changed my decision!

[Smallsmt]

Good luck Micheal, I don't think the SmallSMT solution will match our requirements. Your machine seems great, but your business model presents too much risk to me. 

Thank you Andrew but you're the first one after 26 machines sold in the past 4 months telling me my support or business model takes too much risk.

All other Chinese supplier supply support like us?
What do you think if you buy a machine like Ichan he bought without risks?
Do you think there are more informations on any other Chinese PNP manufacturer website available than on SMALLSMT?

This is our mission and that's not only a sentence on a website!
We do not only supply a good machine, but we provide THE BEST SERVICE for a long time.

Best regards
Michael

[sparkswillfly]

- You've told us that your a chinese company,  and your sales office is in China, but when i asked to see the machine, you told me i would have to come to germany.  Sorry thats just odd.

Doesn't sound that odd.  I'm sure you could get eyes on the machine in China but there would not be anyone to give you a useful English presentation of the features. There is probably only one person in the world that can do that and he's in Germany. And just because they know how to build it doesn't mean they know how to use it.  I guess it requires a slightly open mind but desktop PNP is a bit of a frontier.

[sparkswillfly]

I'm in the market for a desktop pnp, but not motivated enough to coordinate a web meeting demo across continents.  Would really like to see a video of a full run on a complex board (real functional design) that can show all capabilities of the machine.  It might push me over the edge. 

[Smallsmt]

Nice guys!

I am building my prototype boards and standard PCB up to 150 in a row using our machines.
This discussion is totally useless.

I share a production run video today!

[Royce]

Doesn't sound that odd. 

I agree. It seems clear he is a Chinese expat living in Germany working remotely with a Chinese company. Expat status is common enough that people have grown tired of saying the whole word "expatriate" and now say only "expat". Remote working and branch offices are also very common arrangements. These aspects don't warrant suspicion.

That's not to say due diligence isn't warranted. "How many people in your company speak English?" is a fair question. At the same time, however, you are looking at a Chinese company for cost reasons. Such issues are to be expected.

[Hufi]

Hello to all,

I´m new in this forum and I have read a lot of posts in the last week concerning PnP machines because I´m looking for a reliable and cheap PnP machine.

First I was impressed by the Neoden 4 (looks really great) but then I´ve seen SmallSMT. Please find my comments after reading all your Posts:

Concerning the support:
I have sent an email inquiry to Michael last Wednesday morning. Four hours later he called me back and proposed a webmeeting. He spent nearly 3 full hours to explain the software and the machine itself – without any cost!
On Friday (public holiday) we had another telephone call concerning trays and some other technical issues. Also perfect support!
And when you read all the comments and answers it seems that Michael is really very busy and patient. What do you expect? No other company will answer all the questions in such a short time. I really appreciate this!

Concerning the risk:
The whole life is full of risks  . When you buy a cheap machine where only a few people are familiar with you have a risk – right. But if you need full support and no dependency on only one person you have to buy a 50.000+USD machine from a big company. People are expensive – engineers are expensive. You cannot have all for nothing.

Just my 5 cents!

We (my company) will buy a fully equipped VP-2800HP with table and all available accessories mid of next week. Why? Because I trust in the machine and in Michael even if there is a risk when he lost his enjoyment or stops his activities. But I get a really cheap machine with obviously perfect function and perfect service. When I cannot accept this “risk” I have to buy a 50.000+ machine. Then I am on the safe side - very simple  .

I´m very curious about the machine and may be there is an exchange of experiences within this thread (also with other users).

Btw.: We have been working about 8 years with a German manufactured Fritsch PnP machine. The SmallSMT hits the older machine in all properties and cost only 15% of the Fritsch unit  .

Kind regards
Robert

[Ichan]

I share a production run video today!

That would be very nice, i eagerly waiting for that. We all do, i believe... 

-ichan

[Smallsmt]

Here is a first working video for my old VP-2500D belt machine I use for demonstration and prototyping jobs.

https://youtu.be/BOXoaGBBK-A

I can't do VP-2X00HP videos now because waiting for my new machine.

Unmodified after placement


After reflow!

[Smallsmt]

Michael my experience is that many companys put a massive effort into presales, but as soon as the money is collected, its a whole different story.

Andrew I think it's enough I really don't know what's your problem but you definitely don't need my machine so stop writing these useless things!

[Smallsmt]

I think you know only Chinese company's having an export license have such a number.
We use a forwarding agent in Hong Kong to export our machines this is a common business.

We are trying to receive an export license but this takes time ask Ian from Dangerous Prototypes how easy this is?

[thommo]

Hi Michael,

I'm not taking sides here, but it seems that some points have been raised which, if SmallSMT were my company, I'd consider it a priority to respond to.

What is, and over time has become, perfectly clear, is that there are many contradictions in what is being said (including by yourself - not just in communication with 'others'), which only serve to make things perfectly unclear.

If you have good answers, or even mediocre ones, then, simply providing them to the satisfaction of those with interest, should solve these issues and calm everything down again.

I must say that I am totally confused about your business model, what you 'actually' do, whether any of the Yushengtech IP is actually yours, and what formal relationship you do, or don't, have with this company - compared for example with the other seller of this machine on Taobao.

I'm not sure 'who' said it, but there's a well tested argument in sales that goes something along the lines of 'The Customer is Always Right'. You may not agree, but it's a proposition that's worth pondering on for a little while at least.

[Smallsmt]

'The Customer is Always Right' sure

[thommo]

Hmmm?

Michael, I'm not sure if you made that comment with scant disregard (in which case I suggest a career outside of sales altogether), or

if it is truly your credo and accepted position - in which case I'll look forward to proper, considered responses to the, now, many questions that remain currently unanswered.

Many thanks

'The Customer is Always Right' sure

[Smallsmt]

I really dislike this kind of conversation. I am sure i do my best to support my customers. I never said anything bad about you so why do you do this?
I operate my business for more than 30 years but this is the first time I am speachless. No need to say i stop wasting my time responding to your postings. Nobody need to buy my machines so why do you say it's SCAM.
Best regards
Michael

[thommo]

Hey Michael,

At the risk of this sounding like 'fatherly advice', I think you should re-read the comment MrP made.

He offered 3 potential scenarios. 'Scam' was one of those, and it was the last one.
Perhaps the 'first scenario' has more to do with what's happening than the other 3.

But if I were you, right now I'd stop reacting, pause for a day or so, and begin responding.

This 'attack' and 'retreat' approach is doing nothing towards building your business. I can tell you are passionate about what you are doing, so it's time IMHO, to get back to business.

Take your time, go over the threads, and 'look' for '?' - then in a thorough manner, address each one.

Best of luck and patience.

I really dislike this kind of conversation. I am sure i do my best to support my customers. I never said anything bad about you so why do you do this?
I operate my business for more than 30 years but this is the first time I am speachless. No need to say i stop wasting my time responding to your postings. Nobody need to buy my machines so why do you say it's SCAM.
Best regards
Michael

[Royce]

MrP, your Taobao link leads to a Yushengtech listing.

Why do you assert Yushengtech is ripping off the design? He's already stated he works with Yushengtech. Right here in this thread:

YUSHENG + SMALLSMT working together we are responsible for development and oversea sales.
HOT HOT SMT is the Chinese company of XIAO JUAN WU (Sunny)
Sunny + me operate SMALLSMT

We are the general sales agent for all Yusheng machines sold outside of China so Yushengtech sells in China and we do no support or give warranty for machines bought in China!

[Ichan]

Here is a first working video for my old VP-2500D belt machine I use for demonstration and prototyping jobs.

Thanks for the video, i always like to see this kind of machine works.

I do not understand how the cover peeling work, why the plastic tape cover "inflated" all together before the feeding action?

Can't see it clearly, seems the camera angle is too low.

-ichan

[Smallsmt]

Here is a first working video for my old VP-2500D belt machine I use for demonstration and prototyping jobs.

Thanks for the video, i always like to see this kind of machine works.

I do not understand how the cover peeling work, why the plastic tape cover "inflated" all together before the feeding action?

Can't see it clearly, seems the camera angle is too low.

-ichan

Ichan,
the cover tape is first released before pushing the tape to keep the pocket closed.
After push cycle finished the cover tape is pulled back to open the pocket.

Best Regards
Michael

[thommo]

I've often wondered what keeps the tapes in place/position?

With an independent feeder, it is clearly the 'sprocket' wheel which does the locking.

I can't see any mechanical locking device in this system.
So, what stops the tape from moving [backwards or forwards] and 'locks it into place' as the cover is peeled, and the components are being picked?

Here is a first working video for my old VP-2500D belt machine I use for demonstration and prototyping jobs.

Thanks for the video, i always like to see this kind of machine works.

I do not understand how the cover peeling work, why the plastic tape cover "inflated" all together before the feeding action?

Can't see it clearly, seems the camera angle is too low.

-ichan

Ichan,
the cover tape is first released before pushing the tape to keep the pocket closed.
After push cycle finished the cover tape is pulled back to open the pocket.

Best Regards
Michael

[Smallsmt]

MrP, your Taobao link leads to a Yushengtech listing.

Why do you assert Yushengtech is ripping off the design? He's already stated he works with Yushengtech. Right here in this thread:

Maybe i'm wrong.  But its very unclear who owns the IP.  The Chinese company "SmallSMT".. ( being trying very hard to verify its existance ), or YS ( who appear to be a bonafide company..     I struggle to understand how the machine that sells for aound $5,500 sells for $10,000 when its sold outside of china.   Yeah we all need to make a margin.. but in todays global markets you just can't hide that..      Micheal just needs to put an end to the speculation simply by answering a few simple questions...

1. whats the AIC number of SmallSMT
2. whats the business address of SmallSMT
3. ( Thommos question ).. Who owns the IP

These are not hard questions I woudl have thought.    Every factory visit i've made in china, the companys have their AIC certificates proudly on display in their entry way.  ( same goes for lots of buiness's actually )..  You see on Yungshungs web page they have a link to the AIC authority..

My last reply to this topic:
1. SMALLSMT is a sales office in China and general sales agent for foreign countries for YUSHENGTECH
If you need I write an german invoice for you! TAX number DE126805807  349/5040/1007

2. YUSHENG and SMALLSMT are developing together and I never said i own YUSHENGTECH's IP
3. Our company address is right and shown on our website
#202 B,Nan bingjiang building,xin feng village ,Feiyun Town, Rui'an City, Wenzhou City, Zhejiang Province, China 365207
4. We have a 30% sales margin and need to cover the warranty, after sales support and all advertising costs / discounts so what's your problem you are working for free?

[Smallsmt]

I've often wondered what keeps the tapes in place/position?

With an independent feeder, it is clearly the 'sprocket' wheel which does the locking.

I can't see any mechanical locking device in this system.
So, what stops the tape from moving [backwards or forwards] and 'locks it into place' as the cover is peeled, and the components are being picked?

There are springs on top of the tape holding it down and apply some friction.
Last year I did a slow motion video for my old drag feeder machine showing the complete cycle.
https://youtu.be/uXZsBRifWc0

[Smallsmt]

 

[alexanderbrevig]

Just read through this thread, and at page five I almost pulled the trigger. Now I'm through it all and my enthusiasm is dead...
Choosing is an elimination game so I guess I can thank you for self-elimination. 

[sparkswillfly]

...

It's not as straightforward as a standard reseller or affiliate because it appears that he has made contributions to hardware and software design improvements.  I am not even sure you get the exact same hardware and software if you buy the YS version.  And the support is probably much better, especially if you don't speak chinese.  Certainly it's OK to be concerned with the business structure/details but would be nice to focus on the performance of the machine itself.

The recent demo video is good, showing a lot of closely spaced parts but no fine pitch ics.  Would also like to see some statistics on mispicks, drops, and placement errors over say 10000 parts.

[Smallsmt]

I am not even sure you get the exact same hardware and software if you buy the YS version

If you buy a chinese version you receive Chinese manual, different translation files, limited warranty, chinese support and finally machine need to stay in China.
For all other countries we are responsible And Yusheng will forward you to SMALLSMT.

The recent demo video is good, showing a lot of closely spaced parts but no fine pitch ics.  Would also like to see some statistics on mispicks, drops, and placement errors over say 10000 parts.

I show some fine pitch examples in 3 to 4 weeks after my new machine is calibrated.

The mispicks depends on the nozzle quality and part size and will be compensated by some pick up strategies.
We try to access a part 3 times (adjustable in the basic settings) and if it can't be picked up it's possible to advance the tape to access the next part.
After this fails the machine stops and ask for a fix.

Parts where dropped if not adjustable within the choosen precision ranges. If you increase the precision setting you receive more drops.
If the machine dropped a part on movement you need to decrease the acceleration but normally you don't receive part drops on movement.

Placement errors depend on 6 problems:
1. Fast changing ambient light conditions (Sun light from side) drop the vision alignment precision
2. If you pick up the part outside of the center the part may change position on placement
3. Wrong height settings
4. Z speed too high
5. Paste mask not ok.
6. wrong nozzle size for the part

If you use a well adjusted machine the over all error rate on 10000 components should be 0,05%.

Most of the machine stops will be cause by re reeled components because of different extensions and feeder problems caused by oversized tapes ....

[mikeselectricstuff]

If you use a well adjusted machine the over all error rate on 10000 components should be 0,5%.

WTF ? so on a board with 200 parts I will on avarage get a problem on every board.. 

[mikeselectricstuff]

The mispicks depends on the nozzle quality and part size and will be compensated by some pick up strategies.
We try to access a part 3 times (adjustable in the basic settings) and if it can't be picked up it's possible to advance the tape to access the next part.
After this fails the machine stops and ask for a fix.

Is there no option to tell it to automatically continue with the next feeder and deal with all the errors afterwards ?

[Smallsmt]

If you use a well adjusted machine the over all error rate on 10000 components should be 0,5%.

WTF ? so on a board with 200 parts I will on avarage get a problem on every board.. 

Sorry 0,05% 

[Smallsmt]

The mispicks depends on the nozzle quality and part size and will be compensated by some pick up strategies.
We try to access a part 3 times (adjustable in the basic settings) and if it can't be picked up it's possible to advance the tape to access the next part.
After this fails the machine stops and ask for a fix.

Is there no option to tell it to automatically continue with the next feeder and deal with all the errors afterwards ?

Sorry we dont have this function now.

Yesterday I placed 7120 parts and had 4 stops. Two of them because material finished.

[Smallsmt]

VP-2500HP running a 0402 double head placement job

https://youtu.be/cJUuk533XpU

And a new VP-2500D belt machine doing a mixed placement job (yusheng front sticker!)

https://youtu.be/-hweqX_Nbh8

[Ichan]

The last video is very good 

I will say that a PnP machine which reliably pick SOT23 is a good machine. As implied on its name, accurate placement of a PnP machine is only half of the business, the other half is reliability and consistency on picking the parts.

-ichan

[thommo]

Red board at about 7 minute mark.
Large components in vert row on right hand side.
Looks to be same issue with same components on PCB in machine too.

Just had quick look but surprised to see small components looking good and these large components which were vision assist positioned out of place ?

VP-2500HP running a 0402 double head placement job

https://youtu.be/cJUuk533XpU

And a new VP-2500D belt machine doing a mixed placement job (yusheng front sticker!)

https://youtu.be/-hweqX_Nbh8

[Smallsmt]

@Thommo I think that's a configuration problem because of mid point definition maybe I ask Li tomorrow!

[thommo]

OK - would be good to know, but unusual because SOME of the components are OK and others are WAY OFF placement.

I assume that they are all from the 'same pick', and are the 'same component'.

It's the inconsistency that is of concern here. Please let's know what you find.
Like I said, it occurred on both the boards - both in the machine, and the close up afterwards.

In the RED board video;
5:30 on the board in the machine, and 7:00 on the reflowed board
[which appears to show 1 component completely off the pad altogether]

I don't see what 'mid-point definition' or otherwise has to do with this problem Michael, as these components are placement-determined with machine vision on. It should therefore not matter if they are picked from dead-center, or on the corner - the machine vision compensates for this [or at least it should].

I also see that the current design in this machine contemplates a 4x head PnP [according to the front panel vacuum status indicators]
When can we see this model released from Yusheng?

@Thommo I think that's a configuration problem because of mid point definition maybe I ask Li tomorrow!

[48X24X48X]

7:00 on the reflowed board

Diode D14 right?

[ServoKit]

It perfectly possible that the part was placed correctly and knocked off the pad when the PCB was taken out of the machine and put into the oven. Can easily happen. The paste only holds so much.

Regards, Axel

[Smallsmt]

I understand Q14 but I think there maybe  2 reasons

1. Wrong height definition for the part need more force to push in paste.
2. The nozzle used maybe have no suction cup to improve the friction under the nozzle.

[thommo]

Can't read the designator on my phone, but I'm referring to the large components in the vertical column.

See position 5:30 in the RED video [from memory] where the board is still in the machine, and these parts have just finished getting placed.

It perfectly possible that the part was placed correctly and knocked off the pad when the PCB was taken out of the machine and put into the oven. Can easily happen. The paste only holds so much.

Regards, Axel

[Smallsmt]

I hope my new VP-2800HP will be finished end of the week and we can do some videos and pictures in China.
One week later it will arrive in Germany and I can do some special videos to show fine pitch placements.

[thommo]

Hi Michael
I asked about the 4 head model a few days ago ...

"I also see that the current design in this machine contemplates a 4x head PnP [according to the front panel vacuum status indicators].
When can we see this model released from Yusheng"

Will this machine that you're waiting on have 4 heads?
If not, is this option available now?

What is current lead time for 2800HP with 4 heads?
How many different nozzles does the 4 head nozzle changer hold?
Do you have any photos of the 4 head unit or new nozzle changer?

[Smallsmt]

Only for a VP-2800D

https://twitter.com/SMALLSMT/status/661215051538395137

https://twitter.com/SMALLSMT/status/661684902514040836

[Smallsmt]

Hi Peter,
here are my answers:

[qoute]
"I also see that the current design in this machine contemplates a 4x head PnP [according to the front panel vacuum status indicators].
When can we see this model released from Yusheng"
[/quote]
Every V2 machine controller supports up to 4 heads and we use the same controller in every new machine so you will see 4 vaccuum indicators.

Will this machine that you're waiting on have 4 heads?
If not, is this option available now?

The new machine is a VP-2800HP and we will not add the 4 head feature to this kind of machine because need too much space and we need to increase the machine design again.
Our two head design using the nozzle changer is a better overall solution.
We will release the 4 head machine as belt machine soon but the timeline is shifted because we had to solve some V2 controller problems first. But now fixed!

What is current lead time for 2800HP with 4 heads?

The lead time for a VP-2800HP 2 head is 3 to 4 weeks.
But if you like we build a custom machine having 4 heads for you (take about 6 weeks). (but remember your workspace decrease!)

How many different nozzles does the 4 head nozzle changer hold?

You can store 3 nozzles one place need to stay free for nozzle exchange.

Do you have any photos of the 4 head unit or new nozzle changer?

The nozzle changer pictures can be found in our websites gallery http://www.smallsmt.biz/home/gallery/

Our 4 head prototype system can be viewed in  a video on twitter https://twitter.com/SMALLSMT/status/701527444453519364

I don't know if we release the 4 head machine need to discuss with the community about the advantages to do.

The VP-2000D is a non selling product too so we dislike to add another bad selling product.

[thommo]

With the nozzle changer in that location it doesn't appear that head 3 or 4 can 'reach' across to nozzle 1 or 2 in the changer - is it possible Michael?

Do you know what the effective maximum PCB work area becomes on the 2800HP with 4 heads?

[Smallsmt]

Sorry I have no VP-2800HP picture now but there are 3 machines in production so we have some pictures soon.

The past HP machines where all build as VP-2500HP having 3 side feeders.

[Smallsmt]

With the nozzle changer in that location it doesn't appear that head 3 or 4 can 'reach' across to nozzle 1 or 2 in the changer - is it possible Michael?

Do you know what the effective maximum PCB work area becomes on the 2800HP with 4 heads?

I think 100mm so you receive 260 x 500mm working area and maybe you can't reach some feeder lines on the north feeder using all heads.
The feeder blocks on west and east need to move 50mm to the middle.

[thommo]

What about the 2 camera positions Michael?
Where do they go?
You have a photo of them in the middle of the machine - is this their new location?

[Smallsmt]

Yes you're right we need to move the cameras to the middle so you loose 60mm on Y axis too.
So only 260 x 440mm working area left.
But this will help to access all North feeder lines again!
I forgot the nozzle changer postion need to be changed too!

[Smallsmt]

They are in production now you will see the results next week!

[Smallsmt]

I had some new ideas for the cover tape winder mechanics.
We can use a magnet to pull the adressed wheel down and need a small spring to move the others up so the unused tape will be released.

Here is a simple drawing:

[Smallsmt]

They are in production now you will see the results next week!

The question was "Are these the first 2800HP's to be built?"

Possible answers are

(a) Yes
(b) No

Please select the best answer from the above options

sorry I misunderstood your question YES this are the first machines using the 2016 design. ( V2 controller, tapes from West and East feeder moving under the machine, nozzle changer, vibration feeder option)

The VP-2800HP is an extendend version of our VP-2500HP so there are only a little changes.
We shipped 2x VP-2800HP old style last year but I miss the pictures.
I ask for the pictures tomorrow!

[48X24X48X]

The VP-2000D is a non selling product too so we dislike to add another bad selling product.

I believe it's down to the pricing. With the amount of feeder, it has it's own niche. Not everyone build a 50-100 lines of BOM products. If it is priced more competitively, it will definitely grab some buyers from other more entry level machine that doesn't have vision or at least have some sort of "vision". A price like slightly above USD4k with the north feeder included would definitely grab some buyer. You also need to consider that the machine still requires an external pump and PC to run it, so eventually it's more than USD6K already and reached USD7K with shipping, let alone the tax later. People do take note on these small things apart from the machine specification and capability.

My 2 cents.

[Smallsmt]

@48X24X48X Thank you for your comments.

Here are the VP-2800HP machine pictures for a V1 controller machine.

[thommo]

Hi Michael,

Just checking to see how construction of your new Vapor Phase oven is coming along.

Can you please post some photos to show what stage you're at?

Is it still scheduled to be completed next week?
And can you provide more detailed specs now?

@thommo
The construction will be finished in the next 4 weeks.
I post a preview this week before I go to hospital.
I get the gallbladder removed next week.

Best regards
Michael

[thommo]

Hey Michael,

Have you stopped following this forum post or something?

I wrote you a msg about 4 days or so ago regarding your new Vapor Phase Oven [see above].
Can you please send through some pics of it, or at least a response, so I know what's going on?

Also, do you have any pics now for the new design of the 2800HP machine?
It sounds like it's going to be an impressive machine for the cost when it's finally built and available.

What's the lead time after they produce this first unit?
Are they just building a single machine for you, or will there be a 'batch' available?

[Smallsmt]

I am sorry Peter I am busy these days I post some updates end of the week!

What's the lead time after they produce this first unit?
Are they just building a single machine for you, or will there be a 'batch' available?

We build custom machines so the lead time is 4 weeks.
The first 4x VP-2800HP are in production my machine is mostly finished and a
customer machine will be finished end of the week too.

[Smallsmt]

The waste tape is not goign under the machine.. These are the old style again?

The tape goes under the machine you can see the slit but you don't need to use on a two side feeder machine.


Please look on our website http://www.smallsmt.biz/vision-placer-pick-and-place-machine-2016/

[thommo]

So Michael I'm confused.

Is this the 'latest' model machine? Eg the one you will deliver if I place an order now? Or is it a 'previous' model.

Confused also about the 'custom' comment.
What are the custom options for the 2800HP machine?
I understood the only option was the format of the 'north' feeder, which was User swappable.

Please let's know.
Thanks

[Smallsmt]

Custom options are the feeder layout so you can use up to 3 side feeders.
We do custom east feeders too.

I only want to say we don't build machines for stock only because many customers ask for modifications.

My machine has only West and North feeder so I left some space on the east side to demonstrate some new feeder options soon like strip feeders and deep pocket feeders for tall parts.

This machine has our new design and if you buy an East feeder the machine has two slits on each side for the waste tape.
You see the nozzle changer and vibration feeder wich are V2 controller options.

[thommo]

Hi Michael,

Are all machines of a series designed to be 'upgradable'. If so, then to what extent.

eg - if I buy a 2800HP with West and North feeders can I 'add' an East feeder afterwards?

Strip feeders, Deep Pocket feeders, etc - are these all 'considered' in the current design and 'contemplated' moving forward so I can 'add' then in?

Sounds like some of this is not possible. I imagine 'bolt-on' features like the nozzle changer are 'options' though.
Please explain the extent of the 'options'

Have you changed the design back to only having cameras positioned in the top left corner now? I liked the idea of having them in the middle as we discussed.

Which is it?

Thanks - P

[Smallsmt]

Are all machines of a series designed to be 'upgradable'. If so, then to what extent.

All machines are upgradeable by adding nozzle changer, vibration feeder and tray based feeder options.

eg - if I buy a 2800HP with West and North feeders can I 'add' an East feeder afterwards?

The push feeder extension is not possible because you need to change the mechanics!

Strip feeders, Deep Pocket feeders, etc - are these all 'considered' in the current design and 'contemplated' moving forward so I can 'add' then in?

Yes this are future options for all machines and you can add them later.

Have you changed the design back to only having cameras positioned in the top left corner now? I liked the idea of having them in the middle as we discussed.

No we don't chage the camera position for a 2 Head machine because you loose working area space.
We need to change if we build the 4 head machine.

[Smallsmt]

Is there a slot for the North waste tapes as well. ANd if you dont' get an east feeder you dont' get any slots?

North feeder tapes moves out on the front side we can't add a third slot on North side because this is not possible and there is no need to do this in our current design.

[ttsthermaltech]

Glad to see that there still a large amount of skepticism towards the Yushengtech / SmallSMT machines.

As you may have read in a previous thread, I purchased a machine from Yushengtech via their previous sales representative HotHotSMT. The person at HotHotSMT (Sunny) now works with Michael at SmallSMT. So effectively same sales chain, just running under a different name.

Yushengtech has absolutely no regard for customer service. Don't expect anything from them. They sold me a machine with pirated software (back before they wrote their own software), and when it did not work properly (vision), they stopped responding to email. The control boards in the machine were so poorly soldered (surface mount by hand), that I had to resolder some components to make some functions work properly (Camera Ring Lights and video switching relays)

In fact, when I informed them that they forgot to include some spare nozzles that I ordered and paid for to be included with the machine, they told me that I would have to pay for shipping to get them if I still wanted them.

In the beginning, they pointed me to Michael @ smallSMT for support, and to be honest, he truly tried to help, but since he is just a sales rep (with waht seems to be some direct responsibilities towards product development) he can't really do much for you when your machine doesn't work.

In any case, I hope Michael builds his own machine in Germany. It will probably be good, as he knows his stuff. But as long as Yushengtech is involved, I would stay away...

My $0.02 worth...

[ar__systems]

Question: it appears from the pics that spent cover film is not collected anywhere. What are the chances of it NOT being tangled with one of the tapes and sucked into feeders? Why is not it collected?

[Smallsmt]

Question: it appears from the pics that spent cover film is not collected anywhere. What are the chances of it NOT being tangled with one of the tapes and sucked into feeders? Why is not it collected?

The cover film will move to the ground after it left the winder.
There are several options to collect the cover film if you use a spool the tension and travel way changes if you are at the beginning or end of the spool. So if the spool has a clutch the tape tension changes on bigger spool diameters.

[Smallsmt]

@Robert

Yushengtech has absolutely no regard for customer service.
Don't expect anything from them.

Like the most Chinese companies but SMALLSMT takes care of their customers!

They sold me a machine with pirated software (back before they wrote their own software), and when it did not work properly (vision), they stopped responding to email.

I bought the same SMT50 from Yushengtech and used it over 2 years.

They sold me a machine with pirated software

  Stop telling this wrong things!

OURSMT was the manufacturer of the controller and software. They protected their software by using a soft dog and protected the machine controller too.
So it was not possible to pirate this!
I bought a separate controller and software from OURSMT to receive support from this company for my SMT50.
The OURSMT software had a lot of bugs I reported to them. First he did some bug fixes but then he stopped. Their vision system was mostly not usable and as I know YUSHENG had a lot of problems with OURSMT too.

After this problem OURSMT decided to build own controller and software and the idea SMALLSMT was born.
We changed the business relation from customer to partners and started the development for a new system.
Curren't Yusheng / SMALLSMT machines are not compareable to to old quality and software options they had before.

It's documented  in every video on our website!

[l0wside]

+1.
Selling the machine out of Germany (with a German invoice and customer service out of Germany) would make the machine a lot more attractive and give you a competitive advantage.

Finding a North American distributor could be the next step.

Max

[Smallsmt]

+1.
Selling the machine out of Germany (with a German invoice and customer service out of Germany) would make the machine a lot more attractive and give you a competitive advantage.

Finding a North American distributor could be the next step.

Max

Selling the machine out of Germany >> would be more expensive too! But you can receive a German invoice if you are a company customer!
customer service out of Germany >> we do customer service out of Germany!
Finding a North American distributor could be the next step >> No need we need distributor for France and Italy and Eastern Europe!

[l0wside]

So what? You can still leave it to the customer if he wants to buy directly from China or from Europe.
Neoden seems to be running such a model, you can either purchase it via Alibaba and the like or from Printtec in the Netherlands. I would estimate the effective price difference for the Neoden 4 to be 500...700 EUR, which will then need to cover the distributor´s margin and customer support expenses.

Max

[Smallsmt]

You need more than 700€ to cover the price difference:

Neoden4 including all feeder costs 10000USD you pay import tax 4 to 7 % 400 to 700usd import tax for the reseller.
You need to cover warranty.
So the Netherland distributor need minimum 30% discount from NEODEN for the machine.

If you calculate betwenn 5 and 15 hours support per machine and you need to pay advertising and need to run your office it's impossible to sell for this margin from Germany.

And Neoden need to pay to Printec if they sell directly to Europe!

[ar__systems]

The cover film will move to the ground after it left the winder.

I understand it is supposed to move to the floor, but it is right next to spools. Just a bit of static and it will cling to the incoming tape and get sucked back into the machine

[l0wside]

You need more than 700€ to cover the price difference

My first attempt at an answer got lost somehow.
Anyway: you are right. 30% sounds like a reasonable figure. Considering that you might save some money by bulk shipping and that the distribution and support effort at Yusheng is reduced, the effective cost-up might be more in the range of 20%, i.e. about 1.500 EUR.

This is not completely out of range, even more so if the customers have the choice where to buy.

Max

[Smallsmt]

Visit us on Makerfaire Hannover 27. - 29. May

http://www.smallsmt.biz/exhibitions/

[thommo]

Michael - SmallSMT

* Have you guys, or YS, created a 4 head machine yet ? If so, do you have any pics or video of it that you can show us?

I don't consider that the extra 'working area space' taken by placing the Cameras in the middle of the machine would be an issue as the maximum PCB size on the 2800HP machine is greater than many reflow ovens can handle at any rate.

We are keen on a 4 head machine, but would like to see a video of it actually functioning because we don't want to be the 'first ones' to try it out.

* Please let's see some images and pref a video of 4 heads with cameras in the middle.

* Can you show me a pic of the Strip Feeder and Deep Pocket designs, and how they will retrofit to my 2800HP machine if/when I buy one?

* In the current design, can Head #2 travel to the center of Camera #1? Looking at the video of the 0201 placement closely, it doesn't appear it is able to move that far to the West. Please confirm.

* BTW - are you able to respond to my earlier post regarding the Vapor Phase Reflow Oven too?

Strip feeders, Deep Pocket feeders, etc - are these all 'considered' in the current design and 'contemplated' moving forward so I can 'add' then in?

Yes this are future options for all machines and you can add them later.

Have you changed the design back to only having cameras positioned in the top left corner now? I liked the idea of having them in the middle as we discussed.

No we don't chage the camera position for a 2 Head machine because you loose working area space.
We need to change if we build the 4 head machine.

[ttsthermaltech]

Its kinda funny. I tried to keep Michael's reputation out of this, as he has been helpful in the past, albeit within his limitation of not really being the manufacturer, but only a sales rep. Since he has called me a liar, I guess the gloves are off.

#1, I stand by my statement that Yushengtech provides absolutely no support. The statement made by Michael that all Chinese companies do not provide support is completely false. Good companies build good product, and provide support. I have had great success purchasing products in China. Only one or two companies in the last 10 years stand out as being horrible to deal with. Yushentech was the worst.

#2, It is hard to call me a liar about the OurSMT software problem. I spoke directly with OurSMT rep in China, and they had nothing good to say about Yushengtech. Yushengtech made horrible copies the OurSMT daughter board. The soldering was crap.  Just because a program is dongle protected does not mean it is legitimate. But then again, maybe the just didn't pay their bills to OurSMT. In any case it was made very clear to me that OurSMT would not provide support or free updates (as advertised) to Yushengtech customers. That should speak volumes about Yushengtech. OurSMT made sure to disable any online updates to Yushengtech customers. I was told by Yushengtech that software updates would not work because I was in North America. The programmer in me called BS, and put a sniffer on the computer to see what was happening. OurSMT obviously blocked the serial numbers from Yushengtech, as the software connected sucessfully to the OurSMT servers. It just got denied due to serial number error. I even VPN'd / spoofed my computer so that it looked like I was in China. Same problem.

The fact that Michael admits that he had to buy a separate license from OurSMT just to get support should be enough to support my statement that Yushengtech was doing something wrong. If Yushengtech knew that the software was crap, and still sold it to me, without support, and knowing that it did not work properly, and that any problems would not be corrected,  then how could anyone expect them to be reputable in the future...

I recall when Michael started SmallSMT. I read about it in a few other forums... He had a nice new design that followed along some of the design guidelines that Yushengtech started. Except he had grand ideas of interchangeable feeders, better motors, cameras, etc and made in Germany. Once manufacturing estimates in Germany got out of hand, the design got dropped and he started selling Yushengtech products under the SmallSMT brand. Don't think that you are buying anything German from him. It is Yushengtech through and through...

Sure, now Yushengtech makes their own software. Not backwards compatible. Old machines are not upgradable.

I saw that someone said they should send me a new machine free of charge to shut me up. I will make it even easier. Refund me 100% of what I paid ($5315) and I will send the machine back at my expense. I am not asking for them to eat return shipping, my import fees, etc. Just the cost of machine. Pretty simple.

I guess the ball is in their court. Fix a customer problem that is 100% their fault, otherwise, I am happy to tell my story whenever I see them mentioned in a forum.

@Robert

Yushengtech has absolutely no regard for customer service.
Don't expect anything from them.

Like the most Chinese companies but SMALLSMT takes care of their customers!

They sold me a machine with pirated software (back before they wrote their own software), and when it did not work properly (vision), they stopped responding to email.

I bought the same SMT50 from Yushengtech and used it over 2 years.

They sold me a machine with pirated software

  Stop telling this wrong things!

OURSMT was the manufacturer of the controller and software. They protected their software by using a soft dog and protected the machine controller too.
So it was not possible to pirate this!
I bought a separate controller and software from OURSMT to receive support from this company for my SMT50.
The OURSMT software had a lot of bugs I reported to them. First he did some bug fixes but then he stopped. Their vision system was mostly not usable and as I know YUSHENG had a lot of problems with OURSMT too.

After this problem OURSMT decided to build own controller and software and the idea SMALLSMT was born.
We changed the business relation from customer to partners and started the development for a new system.
Curren't Yusheng / SMALLSMT machines are not compareable to to old quality and software options they had before.

It's documented  in every video on our website!

[Smallsmt]

@ROBERT
You are not my customer and SMALLSMT didn't sell anything to you so there is now way to refund the money I must be crazy if I do so!
I talk to Yushengtech Li how to fix your problem but this is a problem between YOU and them!
I help you to find a solution.

Best regards
Michael

Its kinda funny. I tried to keep Michael's reputation out of this, as he has been helpful in the past, albeit within his limitation of not really being the manufacturer, but only a sales rep. Since he has called me a liar, I guess the gloves are off.

#1, I stand by my statement that Yushengtech provides absolutely no support. The statement made by Michael that all Chinese companies do not provide support is completely false. Good companies build good product, and provide support. I have had great success purchasing products in China. Only one or two companies in the last 10 years stand out as being horrible to deal with. Yushentech was the worst.

#2, It is hard to call me a liar about the OurSMT software problem. I spoke directly with OurSMT rep in China, and they had nothing good to say about Yushengtech. Yushengtech made horrible copies the OurSMT daughter board. The soldering was crap.  Just because a program is dongle protected does not mean it is legitimate. But then again, maybe the just didn't pay their bills to OurSMT. In any case it was made very clear to me that OurSMT would not provide support or free updates (as advertised) to Yushengtech customers. That should speak volumes about Yushengtech. OurSMT made sure to disable any online updates to Yushengtech customers. I was told by Yushengtech that software updates would not work because I was in North America. The programmer in me called BS, and put a sniffer on the computer to see what was happening. OurSMT obviously blocked the serial numbers from Yushengtech, as the software connected sucessfully to the OurSMT servers. It just got denied due to serial number error. I even VPN'd / spoofed my computer so that it looked like I was in China. Same problem.

The fact that Michael admits that he had to buy a separate license from OurSMT just to get support should be enough to support my statement that Yushengtech was doing something wrong. If Yushengtech knew that the software was crap, and still sold it to me, without support, and knowing that it did not work properly, and that any problems would not be corrected,  then how could anyone expect them to be reputable in the future...

I recall when Michael started SmallSMT. I read about it in a few other forums... He had a nice new design that followed along some of the design guidelines that Yushengtech started. Except he had grand ideas of interchangeable feeders, better motors, cameras, etc and made in Germany. Once manufacturing estimates in Germany got out of hand, the design got dropped and he started selling Yushengtech products under the SmallSMT brand. Don't think that you are buying anything German from him. It is Yushengtech through and through...

Sure, now Yushengtech makes their own software. Not backwards compatible. Old machines are not upgradable.

I saw that someone said they should send me a new machine free of charge to shut me up. I will make it even easier. Refund me 100% of what I paid ($5315) and I will send the machine back at my expense. I am not asking for them to eat return shipping, my import fees, etc. Just the cost of machine. Pretty simple.

I guess the ball is in their court. Fix a customer problem that is 100% their fault, otherwise, I am happy to tell my story whenever I see them mentioned in a forum.

@Robert

Yushengtech has absolutely no regard for customer service.
Don't expect anything from them.

Like the most Chinese companies but SMALLSMT takes care of their customers!

They sold me a machine with pirated software (back before they wrote their own software), and when it did not work properly (vision), they stopped responding to email.

I bought the same SMT50 from Yushengtech and used it over 2 years.

They sold me a machine with pirated software

  Stop telling this wrong things!

OURSMT was the manufacturer of the controller and software. They protected their software by using a soft dog and protected the machine controller too.
So it was not possible to pirate this!
I bought a separate controller and software from OURSMT to receive support from this company for my SMT50.
The OURSMT software had a lot of bugs I reported to them. First he did some bug fixes but then he stopped. Their vision system was mostly not usable and as I know YUSHENG had a lot of problems with OURSMT too.

After this problem OURSMT decided to build own controller and software and the idea SMALLSMT was born.
We changed the business relation from customer to partners and started the development for a new system.
Curren't Yusheng / SMALLSMT machines are not compareable to to old quality and software options they had before.

It's documented  in every video on our website!

[Smallsmt]

Have you guys, or YS, created a 4 head machine yet ? If so, do you have any pics or video of it that you can show us?

Yes we have a prototype but still no progress to finish the design because I dislike to spend the extra space for the additional 2 heads we need to reduce the working area and feeder count if we don't change the overall size of our machine.
And second we don't sell untested product we need to spend a lot of time for testing and I need a 4 head in Germany to check  so there are more important projects to finish now.
Maybe we should talk about the four head in summer again.

* Can you show me a pic of the Strip Feeder and Deep Pocket designs, and how they will retrofit to my 2800HP machine if/when I buy one?

These option are all upgrades for current machines so it's possible to add later.
I am working on the design so first we will have a cut strip feeder I show some details at the weekend.
Next step is the deep pocket feeder to support tall caps you can put the tape in the feeder and manually advance the tape after maybe 10 or 20 parts placed.
Maybe it is possible to add a 10mm deep feeder line to our push feeder too but I need to build a prototype first.

* In the current design, can Head #2 travel to the center of Camera #1? Looking at the video of the 0201 placement closely, it doesn't appear it is able to move that far to the West. Please confirm.

Yes this is a limitation you can't move head 2 to camera 1.

* BTW - are you able to respond to my earlier post regarding the Vapor Phase Reflow Oven too?

I spend a lot of time to find a good solution for the elevator and still need some time to finish.
We launch a new webpage showing all details after design is finished and tested!

[Ice-Tea]

@ttsthermaltech

No offense, but I think you are giving this a bit of a one-sided treatment. To me, this has the markings of a deal between two parties (ourSMT and Yushen) gone bad with you, unfortunately, caught in the middle. You seem the have the idea that by talking to one of the parties (which can take off their hands of your machine this way without risking anything) you have the full picture now. I doubt this is the case. And even if your claims are 100% true and complete, it seems a bit hars to haunt a distributor like this. In addition, you seem to attach a lot of importance to the fact that this "Sunny" person is still in the picture. Again, bit hars to slander him/her because at some point in his/her life she was caught up in a bad deal. This person was probably also caught in the middle.

Does your story reflect well on Yushen? Probably not. But you seem to be hunting them down and I'm not sure if that is a good thing...

[ttsthermaltech]

@Ice-Tea

I appreciate you chiming in. It puts some depth to the circumstance. What needs to be understood, is that when I bought the machine, I was sold on the fact that it was a fully functional machine (ie: worked properly), and that software updates were included (ie: a process for getting any minor bugs fixed / addressed). This was not the case.

Yes, I purchased the machine via Yushengtech's previous distributor (HotHotSMT), but HotHotSMT provided Michaels contact info for support (ie, he was allready working with them). HotHotSMT would not do anything to fix any problems, and Yushengtech wont even respond to emails...

Unfortunately, my only course of action is to disrupt their sales chain (blogs / reviews / etc) until I can get some resolution to the problem. Have a ever gone after a company like this before? No I have not. Did Yushengtech make a bunch of pretty videos showing one part type pick and place operation using vision look functional, YES. Does my Yushengtech machine work even moderately well? NO. So I am forced to make my case publicly to try and get some resolution.

There are a bunch of ways they could have solved this a long time ago.

1) Replace the software / controller
2) Replace the machine
3) Take back machine / Refund

None of which were offered. As mentioned previously, they would not even send the 4 extra nozzles I ordered, and paid for that were not shipped with the machine. The nozzles were only $10 each (or thereabouts) but this is not about the money... This is about them selling machines with no recourse when they don't work as advertised.

What everyone needs to understand is that Yushengtech / HotHotSMT / SmallSMT are all the same people, same hardware.

Maybe I will get some recourse out of this, maybe not, but I will be absolutely sure that anyone looking to buy a Yushengtech machine knows how they treat customers...

[Smallsmt]

Unfortunately, my only course of action is to disrupt their sales chain (blogs / reviews / etc) until I can get some resolution to the problem. Have a ever gone after a company like this before? No I have not. Did Yushengtech make a bunch of pretty videos showing one part type pick and place operation using vision look functional, YES. Does my Yushengtech machine work even moderately well? NO. So I am forced to make my case publicly to try and get some resolution.

YOU LOST MY SUPPORT!
Try to fix by yourself but I do nothing for you !
I am not responsible for this problem.

[ttsthermaltech]

Michael,

I can only say this. I have sold a lot of product in my time. Some designed by me, and also products designed by others. I am both a manufacturer and a distributor of others products. Every product has a flaw somewhere, maybe a large flaw or maybe a small flaw that is barely noticeable. Sometimes hardware, sometimes software. If it affects a customer in a way that is basic to the operation of the product, it is a problem.

Every time I had a customer with a problem, be it my own products problem, or one of my manufacturers products, if the case was justified (ie, customer did not blow up the product, or hit it with a hammer), and it did not work properly, it got fixed, or replaced. Sometimes at my cost, most of the time I went to bat for the customer and got the manufacturer to fix / replace the product. As a representative of the company, it is my JOB! As a company I always want repeat business. It is far easier to keep existing customers happy , than to find new customers. Plain and simple.

You represent Yushengtech. They build it, you sell it. No matter how you deny that it is not your problem. Your whole sales chain is the same as when I purchased the machine. Sunny sells, you support, and Yushengtech builds. Just the name has changed on the export company.

You may not want to support me in this. That is your call. But I already accepted the fact that I lost 5K on this machine. How much is Yushengtech willing to lose?

If you want to take this away from the public forum, and can get Yushengtech to come to a amicable resolution, please feel free to PM me.

Rob.

Unfortunately, my only course of action is to disrupt their sales chain (blogs / reviews / etc) until I can get some resolution to the problem. Have a ever gone after a company like this before? No I have not. Did Yushengtech make a bunch of pretty videos showing one part type pick and place operation using vision look functional, YES. Does my Yushengtech machine work even moderately well? NO. So I am forced to make my case publicly to try and get some resolution.

YOU LOST MY SUPPORT!
Try to fix by yourself but I do nothing for you !
I am not responsible for this problem.

[Smallsmt]

@Robert
My last words about this topic:

There are a bunch of ways they could have solved this a long time ago.

1) Replace the software / controller
2) Replace the machine

I helped you before and you got this 2 offers but it wasn't acceptable for you!

You told us you already modified your machine.
And finally I used my SMT50 for two years to build PCB's if it was not usable how did I build my PCB?
I was in the same situation like you!

And finally I talked to yusheng this morning to find a solution but you can be sure I never do again!
Your total behaviour is out of any limits I am not your problem start talking to Yusheng!

And I think you should understand SMALLSMT cares every customer and I am responsible for my business now but not for Yushengtech or Oursmt problems some years before!
I am working more than 14 hours every day to support my customers like friends.

Yes, I purchased the machine via Yushengtech's previous distributor (HotHotSMT), but HotHotSMT provided Michaels contact info for support (ie, he was allready working with them). HotHotSMT would not do anything to fix any problems, and Yushengtech wont even respond to emails..

Sunny (HotHotSMT) tried to find help asking me (another customer) to help you!
And I helped you!

here a video of my working SMT50

[Smallsmt]

Your website ( albeit hidden ) provides the answer as to who is selling these machiens.  Its Wu Xiaojuan, aka Sunny.  The Same sunny who sold Robert this machine.   This is who you want money sent to....   Its a personal bank account.. ( Really? )

So interesting in sheep's country the world move in different direction.
My company account has personal name too because if you don't have a GmbH or Limited it's just normal too.
In China if you earn below 60000USD it's the same!
So be sure we have an AIC number soon!

Hidden?
http://www.smallsmt.biz/about-1/
It's the last entry in our navigation bar.

[Smallsmt]

The bank accoutn details are not on that web page, and thats what tells me who is selling this.

Ok I can't find on your webpage too please show me?
http://www.stellascapes.com/

[Smallsmt]

Id even consider buying a new YS/Small SMT machine, knowing that in all likelyhood if somethign goes wrong, there will be no support,  and ditching their software and runnging Open-pnp..   the same approach coudl probalby be made with a bunch of these machiens.

Good idea it's should be possible because machine  was build from modules.
There are stepper driver modules using clock and direction you need to interface.
And the vacuum  monitor is a module too only need to check the limit switch.
But I think Robert thought about it before.

[Smallsmt]

Andrew I like your guide lines you show on your website and if we all follow your rules it will be much better:


original found here http://www.stellascapes.com/#!about/c11ip
(c) Andrew Frazer Stellascapes

Stella Values:
(1) Outstanding results are obtained by open honest collaboration and communications.

(2) We seek to inspire confidence in our team, customers, partners and suppliers by always acting with integrity, fairness, respect and reliability.

(3) We constantly are looking to improve everything we do, and deliver to standards that exceed our customers expectations.
 
(4)  We strive to imagine, innovate and create solutions that take dreams into reality.

(5)  We will  behave in a balanced and thoughtful way, that considers all aspects of our business, and its impacts on our customers, staff, the environment, suppliers and shareholders we will bring good outcomes to everyone we deal with. We will not participate in business that exploits the vulnerable and exploits the unwary.

(6) We will own our mistakes and do our upmost to resolve them in a timely and fair way.

[Smallsmt]

I think you know the difference between sales and profits.
You can earn 60000usd that's profit!

Until now 30 machines!

[Smallsmt]

[We will own our mistakes]
Yes I do but you should know I already tried to help Robert before and today too!
But it's not acceptable to talk to me as I am responsible for this problem.

We had a customer from Korea received a damaged machine because of transportation problem.
He didn't recognize the problem as he received the machine.
I helped him to repair the machine and send him spare parts for free.
We sold a second machine to him at a very low price.
So we are responsible and this problem was caused by DHL.

But Robert is a different thing he didn't buy from SMALLSMT.
I helped him too first helped him to get his software running.
Then we talked about a new machine yusheng spend some money and he need to pay 3000usd and receive a new machine and keep the old.
Last step was we offered a controller and software update when drag function is integrated in vision placer software from yusheng for free.
So that's the history.
And now we stay here!
It's OURSMT and YUSHENGS problem and I took care of this problem and receive ...?

[Smallsmt]

Oh this is scary.. So if you are charging for freight and it arrives damaged, then he had to buy a new machine.. 

He needs more machines!
If you did not recognize the damaged package on arrive you can't open a claim to DHL.
Then it's finally a big problem because DHL don't pay.
But we solved his problem and he bought a second machine.

[Koen]

mrpackethead, you've certainly made a lot of efforts not to understand the answers of Michael and to turn this thread terrible.

[thommo]

Michael, perhaps consider this one point.

If we accept the problem here is YS, and YS have (for no good reason it appears) a very dissatisfied customer and refuse to even communicate with him about the issue, THEN as the 'rest of world' distributor for this product, ARE YOU INTENDING TO CONTINUE YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH A COMPANY THAT BEHAVES IN THIS MANNER?

I know I certainly wouldn't, and I doubt MrPackethead would either.

Good luck in whatever you decide, but this has also frightened me away from this company now, and its distribution model.

It seems OpenPnP rules !!!

[thommo]

Not taking sides here, but if MrP is biased, then I am too.

I've read and comprehend all of what is being said, and disagree that there is any unjust comment that's been made here.

Perhaps the real question is this:
Are you, in the next short period, about to buy one of these machines?. I am was. Perhaps that's the real difference here.

If Michael is 'so good' (and many aspects are exceptionally good) and this makes up for poor and unacceptable YS behaviour, then where am I (and all the other customers) left if Michael (and his one person band) walk away for any reason (like they too find that YS is too difficult to deal with)?

mrpackethead, you've certainly made a lot of efforts not to understand the answers of Michael and to turn this thread terrible.

[Koen]

In the lasts posts I've read, he chose not to understand the role of an agent, that different type of companies with different rules exists, the difference between profit and revenue, the responsibility of the receiver for shipment verification and the fact this korean customer obviously needed a second machine along the first, not a second machine to repair the first.

Michael isn't that hard to understand but this has been going on for 5 pages and the signal to noise ratio took a dive.

[thommo]

Koen,

I don't have to WIN this discussion.
I am was a potential customer.
BTW - you didn't answer my question

In the lasts posts I've read, he chose not to understand the role of an agent, that different type of companies with different rules exists, the difference between profit and revenue, the responsibility of the receiver for shipment verification and the fact this korean customer obviously needed a second machine along the first, not a second machine to repair the first.

Michael isn't that hard to understand but this has been going on for 5 pages and the signal to noise ratio took a dive.

[Koen]

Yes, I'm following the three main pnp threads to order one by May the 1st.

[glenenglish]

@Michael, is there any plan or facility for YS to release the control codes for their machine ?

The machine is clearly mechanically very good.

I think you could sell alot of machines  if the control codes were all pubic, and people could use open PNP (and perhaps an intermediate OS interface)

IE forget about developing software, just make machines.... let the users do the painful work... You are in the price point where users are happy to do some of that legwork.
Every professional knows you don't get something for nothing.

glen

[Royce]

Although I am not in the market in the near future, I follow closely and I concur with Koen's assessment of this thread. MrP has forgotten, ignored, or just not understood a number of aspects of what this guy was saying even beyond Koen's list.

[mrpackethead]

Although I am not in the market in the near future, I follow closely and I concur with Koen's assessment of this thread. MrP has forgotten, ignored, or just not understood a number of aspects of what this guy was saying even beyond Koen's list.

In making any purchaseing decision i have to do due diligence.  Business wise Micheals proposition did not stack up for me, and my assessment of the risk profile was just too high. I was unable to establish who or what SmallSMT was. The only thing i could find was that funds would be sent to a personal bank account in CHina, in the name of Sunny ( her chinese name of course  ).   Roberts experience of dealing with that entity ( sunny ) made me very hesitant. Much of the angst could have been saved by straight forward answers. When answers are not straight forward it erodes the trust profile.     I may be wrong in my assessment, but i will live and die by it.

I do appreicate your Opinion Royce, we live in a world where we all take a difference stance on things.

[sparkswillfly]

Desktop PNP market is still for early adopters.  Perfect example/approach is by Axel/servokit who is happy with a mostly working machine out of the box and spends endless time tinkering/upgrading.  I have been watching smallsmt developments since the beginning and would not be worried about purchasing from them.  Platform evolution/refinement has been very impressive.  But my expectations for any machine are relatively low because that is realistic for this market at this time.

[ar__systems]

I've read and comprehend all of what is being said, and disagree that there is any unjust comment that's been made here.

Like, really?

Oh this is scary.. So if you are charging for freight and it arrives damaged, then he had to buy a new machine..

mrpackethead is being deliberately obtuse there.

[Smallsmt]

@Michael, is there any plan or facility for YS to release the control codes for their machine ?

The machine is clearly mechanically very good.

I think you could sell alot of machines  if the control codes were all pubic, and people could use open PNP (and perhaps an intermediate OS interface)

IE forget about developing software, just make machines.... let the users do the painful work... You are in the price point where users are happy to do some of that legwork.
Every professional knows you don't get something for nothing.

glen

Hi Glen,
our customer receive the technical manual including the complete controller signal description and the CNC controller command list to do your own software if you like.
Best regards
Michael

[Smallsmt]

Hi Andrew,
yesterday I read your last posting and it was nice.
I thought it's now ok for you.
But why did you delete?

Best regards
Michael

Clearly I'm too stupid to be A SmallSMT customer.

'The Customer is Always Right' sure

Sage Advice

Just read through this thread, and at page five I almost pulled the trigger. Now I'm through it all and my enthusiasm is dead...
Choosing is an elimination game so I guess I can thank you for self-elimination. 

I'm with you. 

Goodbye.
A too stupid to be a SmallSMT customer.

[ttsthermaltech]

I think there is some confusion here.

We are talking about desktop PNP's being sold on the open market (ie, retail) , not Kickstarter campaigns or any other prototype buying / investing site. PNP's are not rocket science. Yes they take some technical understanding to design / build but most of the China machines are mechanically sound (within reason). The problem is software / support.   We aren't asking for perfection here either. We all understand there will be / can be small issues. That is normal. How these issues are handled is the issue at hand.

When these machine builders sell machines with obvious major flaws, with no intent on fixing / providing an upgrade path to unsure customer satisfaction, results like this thread appear. Mechanical aside, spec'ing or designing a controller that has sufficient I/O to support the machine is relatively simple. As long as that part of the design is sound, then software updates should be able to fix most, if not all other issues. In the end, software is key. Most of the machines run Windows based GUI's, which makes the ability to upgrade easy. Why support and the ambition to further develop software and fix bugs is outside the scope of certain machine builders is beyond my comprehension.

For a living, I develop software. As a result, I need to develop hardware. Hardware design, albeit tedious, I find rather cathartic. A lot of the hard work is done for you in today's world of highly advanced IC's and MCU's. Most of my boards designs take less than a few weeks to go from concept to prototype. The software however is a living entity. It is almost always in development. I try ensure software is bug free (that I know of) upon initial sale of the first unit. Software development continues to add features, enhance performance, and if necessary address any bugs found internally or by our customers. Yes it costs more to continually evolve your software, but if you want to survive in a high tech world, you evolve... If a customer purchase fails to work as advertised, I either ensure that an software / firmware update fixes the problem, if not, and I have a part that resolves the issue, I send it to the customer with full credit for the old item, or I refund the customer. I can't afford to have unhappy customers. It is far too costly to obtain customers. It is much easier / less costly to keep them happy.  I also find that the cost of ongoing development actually costs less in the long run, than trying to support work-arounds to bugs.

I still don't understand why certain companies manuals / documentation is so bad. Really hire someone that knows nothing about your products, and write down the answers to all the questions they have to make it work. For the most part. Your manual is now complete.

Sure, maybe a few of us want to buy a piece of hardware and get the protocol to write our own PNP software, but in reality, I think most of us just want to buy a machine, at a certain price point, with certain features, that works as advertised. Essentially, take delivery, setup, and build boards.

Maybe I am wrong. But that is what I wanted / expected....

Desktop PNP market is still for early adopters.  Perfect example/approach is by Axel/servokit who is happy with a mostly working machine out of the box and spends endless time tinkering/upgrading.  I have been watching smallsmt developments since the beginning and would not be worried about purchasing from them.  Platform evolution/refinement has been very impressive.  But my expectations for any machine are relatively low because that is realistic for this market at this time.

[glenenglish]

@michael

OK on the signalling and controller documentation - that is a very good step.

FYI
I'd want to see the documentation first before purchasing so I could assess the quality and depth.

Is the documentation available for download on your site ?

regards
 

[Smallsmt]

Send email to michael@smallsmt.biz including name and address and I send the manuals.

[Hufi]

Sometimes it´s sobering to read all the comments and what customers expect  . I make a comparison: I want to buy a car. But first I ask Mr. Zetsche (the CEO of Daimler) for the complete development documentation of the Mercedes I want to buy. My argument: I need this information to estimate the quality of the car.

Or to stay on the electronical scope: I ask Yamaha, Juki or Samsung for their software source code or similar development papers.

We should remember what we are talking about: A really cheap PnP machine for prototypes or small series production. We are not talking about machines for hundred thousand dollars.

For me it´s only one issue: The machine should work without problems and help me manufacturing my PCB boards. That´s it! And in case of problems I need a good support. As announced I have ordered the VP-2800HP two weeks ago. For me only the function counts. I have no intention to change anything in software or to write software by myself. I want to assemble PCB boards – that´s the reason I trust in Michael and the VP-2800HP.

When it fails: Okay, then I have lost 12.000 USD. So what? A similar PnP with (supposedly) perfect support, quality, reliability and proprietary name cost 10 times more than the VP-2800HP. And when I need technical support I have to pay from 70 up to 200 USD for one hour support service. Btw: I already have a lot of experience with expensive PnP machines too.

It´s always the same: You get what you pay for. And I keep this in mind all the time. When I buy a Chinese manufactured product for less money I always have a risk. To avoid the risk I have to buy a more expensive machine made in Germany/Japan/Korea/USA for instance. I can calculate my risk and can minimize it. And that´s the reason I bought a SmallSMT. May be I´m wrong – but I have no problem to admit having made a mistake perhaps.

Best regards
Robert

[mikeselectricstuff]

Send email to michael@smallsmt.biz including name and address and I send the manuals.

Why would you not put documentation on the website? This sort of attitude just puts off potential customers.

[Smallsmt]

Mike,
documentation costs money and time and I don't offer a blue print for my competitors.

So it is just normal to ask for the name of a person to send this!

And remember I show in a web meeting everything a customer should know before buying a machine.
So think about if this service is better or not?

[mikeselectricstuff]

That's just shortsighted, and will lose you potential customers.

[ar__systems]

Even I'm starting to get annoyed by mikeselectricstuff' relentless pestering of Smallsmt. Don't you have better things to do?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Don't understand that comment - all I'm doing is suggesting how they might themselves more attractive to potential customers. Not being open with documentation is just stupid, there is nothing to gain from it,but it will put some potential customers off.
 If they don't want to listen then that's their problem, I don't care.

[coppice]

Mike,
documentation costs money and time and I don't offer a blue print for my competitors.

So it is just normal to ask for the name of a person to send this!

And remember I show in a web meeting everything a customer should know before buying a machine.
So think about if this service is better or not?

Do you have a clear idea how many potential customers would be driven away by a paranoid attitude like this? I would guess a lot. I am certainly very reluctant to buy when I meet this kind of close to the chest attitude to important product information. You always need to be wary of the amount of help you might give competitors, but you have to balance that against how much you might help to build relationships with paying customers.

[mikeselectricstuff]

It's just like opening up something and finding numbers ground off chips. if a company is stupid enough to think this makes sense, how many other stupid decisions have they made?
Selling a reasonably expensive bit of kit requires that customers have confidence in the supplier.
Things like this just erode that with no benefit from the manufacturer. Unfortunately this attitude is shared by many Chinese companies, and is one of the things that holds back Chinese companies from being treated seriously outside of the Far East.

[Smallsmt]

Customers receive everything from us so what's the problem?
If you like my machine and need any information feel free to ask me.

None of my competitors offer this documents free on their website so why should I do?

Mike,
documentation costs money and time and I don't offer a blue print for my competitors.

So it is just normal to ask for the name of a person to send this!

And remember I show in a web meeting everything a customer should know before buying a machine.
So think about if this service is better or not?

Do you have a clear idea how many potential customers would be driven away by a paranoid attitude like this? I would guess a lot. I am certainly very reluctant to buy when I meet this kind of close to the chest attitude to important product information. You always need to be wary of the amount of help you might give competitors, but you have to balance that against how much you might help to build relationships with paying customers.

[Smallsmt]

Hi Mike did you read our documents?
I send the account info to you.

It's just like opening up something and finding numbers ground off chips. if a company is stupid enough to think this makes sense, how many other stupid decisions have they made?
Selling a reasonably expensive bit of kit requires that customers have confidence in the supplier.
Things like this just erode that with no benefit from the manufacturer. Unfortunately this attitude is shared by many Chinese companies, and is one of the things that holds back Chinese companies from being treated seriously outside of the Far East.

[mrpackethead]

In Micheals Defence,

I asked for the documentation and he provided it to me by way to giving me access to his downloads page.

The documentation was understandable, though it could do with someone going through it to resolve the grammar and structure to make it more readable.     There was nothing in the documentation however that i would regard as competitively interesting, it would'nt be very useful for reserve engineering / protocol decoding / general copying..   

[mrpackethead]

Are the Servo's that are on the HP machines,  Hybrid Servos ( stepping servos - closed loop ) or are they BLDC types?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Customers receive everything from us so what's the problem?
If you like my machine and need any information feel free to ask me.

None of my competitors offer this documents free on their website so why should I do?

To make you stand out as being better than the competition.

Makers of other types of equipment in a similar price range, e.g scopes, spectrum analyzers etc. ALL make their docs available online without needing to ask.
It is not reasonable to compare this sort of pick & place with the likes of Mydata, Essemtech etc. as it is aimed at a very different market, and is much more similar to mid-range test gear than high-end pick/place in terms of target market  and the purchasing decision-making process.

Hi Mike did you read our documents?

No,because I'm not particularly interested in the docs themselves, just pointing out that making them less accessible can only have a negative impact on you.

So let's say a competitor takes your docs and uses what parts of them that are relevant to their machine - is this going to enable them to sell a machine that someone would otherwise have bought from you? Of course not.
And if a competitor really wanted to do this all they need to do is pretend to be a potential customer and ask for them.
And if a competitor can be shown to have copied you, it's only going to make them look bad.

Is a potential customer who discovers your website, quickly finds the docs, and  can read them to find out more going to have some preference over someone else where they have to go to the trouble of emailing and waiting - maybe. 
Maybe while they're waiting for your reply, they're also looking at the competition instead of reading your docs and realising that your machine is ideal for them so they don't bother looking further.
 
Bottom line is that you have nothing to lose and everything to gain, unless of course the quality of the docs are so bad it puts someone off, but that would happen however easy or hard they were to obtain.
 

[glenenglish]

Michael sent me the docs as I requested- thanks.

For the market the machine is in, the docs I think are OK- they meet my expectations.  They're fine (I think) .
Every machine has something bespoke. unusual about it.

Only thing missing would be say suggested spare parts list- things that will wear out, and how long, and things that might blow up / fail catastrophically - things that you should keep in stock if you want uninterrupted operation and cannot afford down time.

What's important is keeping the doco updated regularly so that as questions come in from users on forums, they also for part of the documentation. Doco in the machine's early stages should be updated probably once per week.

Hence good to have doco just accessible online and people can see when there is something new.
If a competitor wants your doco, they'll get it somehow, or they'll just buy a machine...

[Smallsmt]

Are the Servo's that are on the HP machines,  Hybrid Servos ( stepping servos - closed loop ) or are they BLDC types?

We use closed loop Hybrid stepper servo motors 400W on X axis and BDLC (3 phase) 600W on Y axis.

[mrpackethead]

Are the Servo's that are on the HP machines,  Hybrid Servos ( stepping servos - closed loop ) or are they BLDC types?

We use closed loop Hybrid stepper servo motors 400W on X axis and BDLC (3 phase) 600W on Y axis.

Is there a datasheet on these?

[Smallsmt]

Sorry Andrew I don't have.

[glenenglish]

The technical manual for the product should / would have a full list of parts including the model numbers and suppliers of each component.


I only have the the manuals for the servo- belt version. Michael- are the manuals for the HP in the same location ?

Michael  : this needs immediate attention- a BOM  / part list for the machines.

For stuff  that is going to wear out. Not for structure.

[ar__systems]

people you are not reasonable. While at it, demand all CAD drawings and schematics as well, and a list of all suppliers for good measure.

[glenenglish]

naa i think it is reasonable to have a list of major components-

>>>>stuff that will wear out or fail at some point.

IE not slabs of aluminium.

like say
Belts - spec and supplier (even if the supplier is yourself- internal)
Drives, ballscrews or cogs etc
Servos / steppers

If you are going to throw down $10k, you don't want a paperweight for the sake of being unable to locate a $200 part.

In Michael's defense, at least he has come up here and is present in the forum, which is more than most Chinese vendors ... But handling forum criticism is tricky,

[ar__systems]

Well ok, belts and things like that I agree. Although they are pretty standard on TVM802, finding replacements does not take more than a minute of search.

[ttsthermaltech]

Well, things have taken a surprising change of direction. After much discussion, Yushengtech / HotHotSMT / SmallSMT have offered to take back my machine for a refund. We are still working out details, but so far, I am hopeful. I am currently working closely with Sunny to get this all resolved in a calm, businesslike manner.

I will keep you all posted on how this all end up.

Hoping for the best.

[thommo]

Well done - to everyone involved !!!

Common sense prevails.

I am certain that Michael will take care of you if he says he will. All the reports says he's good at follow up and stuff like that.

Keep us posted ttsthermaltech.

Well, things have taken a surprising change of direction. After much discussion, Yushengtech / HotHotSMT / SmallSMT have offered to take back my machine for a refund. We are still working out details, but so far, I am hopeful. I am currently working closely with Sunny to get this all resolved in a calm, businesslike manner.

I will keep you all posted on how this all end up.

Hoping for the best.

[Smallsmt]

You find the information about used belts and motors in our maintenance manual including stepper motor information.

We don't supply a different manual for HP machine but I release an add on document on soon.

First of all if a part fails you should ask us to ship a new one.

[Smallsmt]

Smallsmt don't takes Robert's machine back because Smallsmt never sold it to him!

Yusheng & Sunny takes back the machine and refund the purchase price.
That's the last time I involve myself in things where I cannot be held responsible.

Well, things have taken a surprising change of direction. After much discussion, Yushengtech / HotHotSMT / SmallSMT have offered to take back my machine for a refund. We are still working out details, but so far, I am hopeful. I am currently working closely with Sunny to get this all resolved in a calm, businesslike manner.

I will keep you all posted on how this all end up.

Hoping for the best.

[mrpackethead]

Quit while you are ahead micheal.  you can stop digging.
 

Smallsmt don't takes Robert's machine back because Smallsmt never sold it to him!

Yusheng & Sunny takes back the machine and refund the purchase price.
That's the last time I involve myself in things where I cannot be held responsible

Well, things have taken a surprising change of direction. After much discussion, Yushengtech / HotHotSMT / SmallSMT have offered to take back my machine for a refund. We are still working out details, but so far, I am hopeful. I am currently working closely with Sunny to get this all resolved in a calm, businesslike manner.

I will keep you all posted on how this all end up.

Hoping for the best.

[mrpackethead]

You find the information about used belts and motors in our maintenance manual including stepper motor information.

We don't supply a different manual for HP machine but I release an add on document on soon.

First of all if a part fails you should ask us to ship a new one.

i did note that in the docs, that the stepper motors where actualy listed, complete with the datasheet for them..  worse case they are standard NEMA mounts and nothing special, so you'd be able to swap them out with any number of compatible parts.

Micheal are there parts that may 'commonly fail' such as belts etc, that are low cost, and might be included in an optional "parts" kit.  Its great that you'll repalce them, but that could mean downtime of a week, while parts arrive from germany/china...     I'd much rather pay for some "bits" up front so i could do a quick repair..  Time is critical often.

[Smallsmt]

The parts are not too expensive some customers asked for consumables and we shipped spare parts together with our machines.

I think a set of belts costs 40Usd.

[mrpackethead]

The parts are not too expensive some customers asked for consumables and we shipped spare parts together with our machines.

I think a set of belts costs 40Usd.

At 40 this is a no brainer.  Bundle it up and offer it as a
Product!!! 

PS I'll send you my bill for marketing advise later.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The parts are not too expensive some customers asked for consumables and we shipped spare parts together with our machines.

I think a set of belts costs 40Usd.

At 40 this is a no brainer.  Bundle it up and offer it as a
Product!!! 

PS I'll send you my bill for marketing advise later.

Yeah -the cost of not having one when you need it is way more than that

[Kjelt]

Yeah -the cost of not having one when you need it is way more than that

per hour!

[mrpackethead]

IF THE machine that you get delivered fails, and needs to be returned to the manufacturer, what is your returns process, warranty / guarrentte..

How does the manufacturer arrange a return of product to china? will this be at your expnese?  Or are you just stuck with it?

[Smallsmt]

In the warranty period of 12 months all spare parts will be shipped to customers free of charge.
The customer receive instructions to change the part.

If the machine got damaged on transport the shipping company need to pay for the costs but customer need to check and report to DHL / TNT / UPS.
We do video and photo documentation for all machines where shipped out to show package and machine was ok on shipping date.

So if the machine need to ship to China the customer is responsible but we pay the shipping back.

[mrpackethead]

How does Small SMT handle the temporary import into China, Do you have a registed bond store or ar eyou operating ina special econimic zone in china?   I understand YS doe'snt have an export license, so it seems unlikely? Essentially its impossible to sent it back, wihtout getting large mounts of Duty slapped on it..
Is this part of the reason that a certain machine in canada can't get shipped back.

Micheal, you need to do some homework on this, becuase if i spent $10k on a mcahine and it crapped out, i'd expect you to fix it. At your cost.   At least you are being upfront about what you terms are i guess. But its just another "risk" factor...

[Smallsmt]

First of all you don't buy a 10K machine from me.
Second we try everything to get the machine repaired on customers side.
If need to be shipped back we collect from Hong Kong.

And finally I hope we receive  Export / Import right in summer.

Maybe you ask Neoden how they handle this case?

Micheal, you need to do some homework on this, becuase if i spent $10k on a mcahine and it crapped out, i'd expect you to fix it. At your cost.   At least you are being upfront about what you terms are i guess. But its just another "risk" factor...

If you need this you pay 20000usd for my 10000usd machine and I personal travel to your office and repair the machine without any costs for you!

[mrpackethead]

 

First of all you don't buy a 10K machine from me.

Thats why i said "if".   

Second we try everything to get the machine repaired on customers side.

If need to be shipped back we collect from Hong Kong.

you still need to get it over the border.. You'll be paying import duty and vat unless you are setup as proper business in China, and even then its tricky..

And finally I hope we receive  Export / Import right in summer.

You'll be lucky, you will spend that much time getting an AIC first.   

Maybe you ask Neoden how they handle this case?

Sales tip #1.  When being asked a question that is hard, dont' answer it with a deflection off against a competitior, becuase it only informs the person who is asking it, that you dont' actually have an answer.

Micheal, you need to do some homework on this, becuase if i spent $10k on a mcahine and it crapped out, i'd expect you to fix it. At your cost.   At least you are being upfront about what you terms are i guess. But its just another "risk" factor...

If you need this you pay 20000usd for my 10000usd machine and I personal travel to your office and repair the machine without any costs for you!

i'd be better too buy 2 YS machines in china for Taoboa ( which are the same machines ) and ship them out myself and pay half the money.   

[Smallsmt]

i'd be better too buy 2 YS machines in china for Taoboa ( which are the same machines ) and ship them out myself and pay half the money.   

Sure you save but not half and finally you received everything from me you need!
Don't forget Yusheng sells only to Chinese company.

[mrpackethead]

Maybe you ask Neoden how they handle this case?

Excellent idea.  So that's exactly what I'd did today.
They will and already have done full returns at their cost if something needs fixing
Very nice folks too.  The N4 is an interesting wee machine

Tommorrow heading to wenhouz to visit toe more smt companies all who are very happy to take my money.
Oh that's right they only sell to chinese companies.  Maybe that's what they told you.

[ttsthermaltech]

I would like to take this opportunity to thank this forum, Michael @ SmallSMT and Sunny @ HotHotSMT / SmallSMT / Yushengtech.

It has been a long path to an amicable (good) outcome to the problems I was having with my Yushengtech machine.

With the help of this forum, and the ongoing efforts from Michael and Sunny, I received a significant refund towards the cost of the machine that I purchased. It was a negotiated settlement that was agreed upon by myself and those involved.

I know that there were heated arguments between everyone involved, but in the end, I was happy with the outcome.

I understand that there has been significant development work and improvement in the Yushengtech / SmallSMT machines since mine was purchased approx. a year ago. To those of you considering a new machine, they are well worth your time to look at. The work that Michael has done with the machines is impressive, and deserves your consideration. 

If anyone has any questions, I would be happy to answer via PM.

Thanks again.

Rob @ TTSThermaltech



 

[mrpackethead]

With the help of this forum

In deed, this forum is strong.  So is the chinese concept of loosing face.   I'm glad you've got a good outcome.

https://chinaculturecorner.com/2013/10/10/face-in-chinese-business/

[48X24X48X]

mrpackethead,

How was your trip? 
Decided on which machine already?

[mrpackethead]

mrpackethead,

How was your trip? 
Decided on which machine already?

At this stage i've looked at three different machines, and none of them quite cut it for me.

The YS machines with the ball screws are capable of awesome placement, but the feeder system really lets it down.
The N4, is close, but the feeder system really lets it down.
The QiHe is a really nice machine but its limited by the number of feeders it can handle at a time.

Theres a hole in the market!

[Brumby]

mrpackethead,

How was your trip? 
Decided on which machine already?

At this stage i've looked at three different machines, and none of them quite cut it for me.

The YS machines with the ball screws are capable of awesome placement, but the feeder system really lets it down.
The N4, is close, but the feeder system really lets it down.
The QiHe is a really nice machine but its limited by the number of feeders it can handle at a time.

Theres a hole in the market!

Do I see a pattern ...?

[Smallsmt]

Perhaps this machine can meet your needs soon 

[RobK_NL]

The QiHe is a really nice machine but its limited by the number of feeders it can handle at a time.

Which of their machines specifically are you referring to, the TVM802 or the TVM920?

[mrpackethead]

The QiHe is a really nice machine but its limited by the number of feeders it can handle at a time.

Which of their machines specifically are you referring to, the TVM802 or the TVM920?

The 920..  Just not enough feeders to make it viable for me. 

[harry4516]

...
The 920..  Just not enough feeders to make it viable for me.

thats the biggest problem of the little disktop machines.
I use the TVM802B and have all the standard parts in the back stack (1k, 10k, 100k, 100n ...)
and the more specific parts in the left stack.
For the very special parts I build exchangeable custom trays, all trays have the same coordinates, so I don't need to enter new values for each tray.

What helps is to use always the same parts in the design, i.e. instead of using a new resistor value I try to place two Rs in parallel, that helps a lot.
Until now there was no need to use all of the stacks.

[RobK_NL]

The 920..  Just not enough feeders to make it viable for me. 

The TVM920 is supposed to have capacity for 56 feeders. Just how many do you need? 

Have you had the chance to actually see it in action? What's your overall opinion on it, number of feeders aside?

Perhaps this machine can meet your needs soon 

What exactly is "this machine" and what exactly is "soon"?

[Smallsmt]

This machine is our next step we add 22 Yamaha CL feeder to our HP machine so you can use push feeder and cassettes on one machine.

[mrpackethead]

The TVM920 is supposed to have capacity for 56 feeders. Just how many do you need? 

More like 80.   Its a lot i know.

Have you had the chance to actually see it in action? What's your overall opinion on it, number of feeders aside?

they have done their homework on this and its really well built.   Its certainly a contender.

Perhaps this machine can meet your needs soon 

What exactly is "this machine" and what exactly is "soon"?

[harry4516]

This is a picture of the currrent setup of my TVM802B.
It has 46 feeders and 26 custom-trays giving a capacity of 72 different components (the software supports 76 max). However, I never used all of them until now.
The trays are home made, 11 trays for various ICs, 9 lanes for 8mm tape pieces and 6 lanes for 12mm pieces.

The back stack is fully populated with standard parts like 1k, 10k, 100n, small diodes...
the left stack with more specific parts and the trays with expensive parts where I purchase only low quantities.

This stack/tray capacity should be more then enough for all my projects.

[ar__systems]

Wait, how is it possible? It has a limit of 10 different IC stacks.

[Smallsmt]

My VP-2800HP arrived here are some pictures of our first test run.

[harry4516]

looks very good, smallsmt, congrats for the machine.

@ar__systems:
my tvm802B has 30 ic-stacks. I can enter ic-stack 1 to 30 in the software, and I have tested it, it works.
This is a screenshot of the sys config window.

[ar__systems]

Hm... What version of the s/w do you have?

[harry4516]

V 2.12 date: 2016.03.21
I have purchased the machine beginning of April.

[Kjelt]

My VP-2800HP arrived here are some pictures

Interesting that they use ballscrew assembly instead of a beltdrive assembly is that not limiting the placement speed?

[Spikee]

My VP-2800HP arrived here are some pictures

Interesting that they use ballscrew assembly instead of a beltdrive assembly is that not limiting the placement speed?

Ballscrew can go faster because of the very low backlash. It is possible that it requires more energy.

[Koen]

To enjoy the best of both worlds, pick and place usually use high pitch ball screws but they are much harder to source and more expensive than 5mm pitch.

[Smallsmt]

Our Ballscrew machine need more energy than our stepper motor based machines but they are running at higher placement speed than our belt machines.

Some professional pick and place machines have belt too but use a linear measurement system on each axis to drive a closed loop system to compensate the mechanical deviations.

If you need precision a belt machine need to slow down to receive a good placement result. (to reduce head swing and vibrations)
That's the reason we show 2000 parts per hour as real placement speed using vision alignment than 5000 and more other machines offer as theoretical placement speed!

The most important difference is we use high pitch ball screw spindles and closed loop servo drives plus linear guide ways to improve the precision.
Our linear guide ways are from Hiwin a quality manufacturer.

We have less vibration than a belt machine and nearly no head swinging when machine stop for part placement or pick up.
You can compare the mechanical design of our HP machines against the competitors.
X- axis use double linear guide ways and Y-axis uses 25mm  linear guide ways.

[Kjelt]

Ok looking forward to the videos.

[Smallsmt]

I have some VP-2500HP short videos on www.twitter.com/smallsmt

Our machine has a max deviation of 0.05mm (over a distance of 300mm).

But it's possible to reach a max deviation of 0.018mm using a G5 tolerance spindle (over a distance of 300mm) but it's more expensive.

If you compare this to a belt machine you can reach >= 0.1mm precision on the same distance.

[Kjelt]

Looks good, but seeing this video I only now realise that if one head moves down the other one moves up why is that, single motor?

[Smallsmt]

Single or double head usage depends on your placement strategy settings.

[ar__systems]

Looks like it is doing a decent job

[ar__systems]

Looks good, but seeing this video I only now realise that if one head moves down the other one moves up why is that, single motor?

Most small machine use single stepper to control both heads.

[Smallsmt]

Most small machine use single stepper to control both heads.

Yes because of weight and space limitations.
A placement head should have small width! You loose working area space because every head need to reach each feeder position.

[Kjelt]

Most small machine use single stepper to control both heads.

Ah ok, interesting, how does that mechanism exactly work? In the middle both heads are neutral, going + moves head A down and head B up, going - moves the head B down and A up?

[ar__systems]

yes, one arm attached to the motor's spindle. One side pushes one down.

[Smallsmt]

We use a belt it's working like an elevator!

[ServoKit]

Close-up of the TVM802 head. The motor engages the lever, one nozzle goes down, the other goes up. The smaller steppers rotate the nozzle.

Regards, Axel

[glenenglish]

Michael, what lead do you have on your ball screws ?

[Smallsmt]

Hi Glen,

we need 3-4 weeks to build standard HP machines.

Best regards
Michael

[glenenglish]

No NO what lead do you have on your ballscrews- what PITCH ?

[Smallsmt]

We use 20mm pitch

[Smallsmt]

I am in the factory in China today and we are working on some improvements of our software.

http://www.smallsmt.biz/2016/05/07/i-am-in-china-visiting-yusheng-discussing-new-machine-details/

[mrpackethead]

And its a nice factory at that.

[Smallsmt]

Andrew,
I am happy you find a new friend.
Maybe we arrange a hacker camp in China building cheap high precision pnp machines soon
So many people here have spare time to build.

Best regards
Michael

[mrpackethead]

Andrew,
I am happy you find a new friend.
Maybe we arrange a hacker camp in China building cheap high precision pnp machines soon
So many people here have spare time to build.

Best regards
Michael

You shoudl make freinds with bootstrap, he sounds like you and him will get on really well.

[l0wside]

SmallSMT had a booth at Maker Faire Bodensee in Friedrichshafen (Southern Germany). I spent a day to go and have a look.

For your amusement, I have attached a photo of the booth.


The rest of the Maker Faire was little better, but that´s a different story.

Max

[mrpackethead]

Whats up Micheal?  are you still doing this smallSMT stuff?   You've been awfully quiet.

[l0wside]

OK, I missed to check his blog the day before going to Friedrichshafen: http://www.smallsmt.biz/home/blog/
Michael seems to have been sick. Still, I am somewhat disappointed.

Max

[Smallsmt]

Hi,

yes we couldn't visit the Maker Faire I had a heavy virus infection infection before an my friend Marc was in hospital.

But we have 2 exhibitions left this year one in Nordhorn and one in Berlin.

Max you are living near to me so it's possible you visit me in my office.


Best regards
Michael

[CaveMan]

Hi All,
I just ordered a VP2800HP machine from SmallSMT on January 31st, and I thought I would use this thread to share my opinions about the machine once it arrives.  I'm new to the forum, so if anyone objects to me adding to an old thread, let me know.  It will probably be another few weeks before they're even finished building the machine, but here is the configuration that I ordered:
West feeder: 34 x 8mm
East feeder: 4 x 12mm + 2 x 24mm + 22 x 8mm
North feeder: 4 x 12mm + 2 x 16mm + 5 x 24mm
Vibration feeder

[Muxr]

Hi All,
I just ordered a VP2800HP machine from SmallSMT on January 31st, and I thought I would use this thread to share my opinions about the machine once it arrives.  I'm new to the forum, so if anyone objects to me adding to an old thread, let me know.  It will probably be another few weeks before they're even finished building the machine, but here is the configuration that I ordered:
West feeder: 34 x 8mm
East feeder: 4 x 12mm + 2 x 24mm + 22 x 8mm
North feeder: 4 x 12mm + 2 x 16mm + 5 x 24mm
Vibration feeder

Please do share your experience. I am also evaluating different options as I am in the market for a PNP as well.

[CaveMan]

The VP2800HP arrived by FedEx Freight today. I will be unpacking it this weekend and I'll post more updates and pictures.

[mrpackethead]

Hi All,
I just ordered a VP2800HP machine from SmallSMT on January 31st, and I thought I would use this thread to share my opinions about the machine once it arrives.  I'm new to the forum, so if anyone objects to me adding to an old thread, let me know.  It will probably be another few weeks before they're even finished building the machine, but here is the configuration that I ordered:
West feeder: 34 x 8mm
East feeder: 4 x 12mm + 2 x 24mm + 22 x 8mm
North feeder: 4 x 12mm + 2 x 16mm + 5 x 24mm
Vibration feeder

Amazing how you ordered it in the future.

[CaveMan]

Sorry mrpackethead, I meant December 31st.

Anyway, the machine arrived much earlier than I expected, and I'm unpacking the machine now. Everything was carefully packed in a sturdy wooden box. Attached are some pictures. The machine is currently sitting on the shipping crate (obviously turned upside-down). If you get a 2800-size machine, definitely have some other people help you move it.  I had three other people help me lift it out of the crate.

Hardware: I wasn't sure what kind of airline the machine would have, and I'm pleased that it comes with a 1/4" NPT male connector, so I can easily hook it to my air compressor without additional fittings. I need to order an oil/water/air separator, but I'm waiting to hear back from Michael about what filter size (5um, 40um, etc) he recommends.

Software: At the end of installation, there is an option to automatically install the usb driver and visual c++ runtime environment. The automatic installation didn't work because of Windows permissions (I got some errors alluding to an inability to install C:\SMT\supportfiles\vcredist_x86.exe and C:\SMT\supportfiles\usb_serial_driver\SETUP.exe), but this was very easily fixed: I re-executed both executables myself and clicked through the Windows dialog.

My next step is to order a 1:2 stepup transformer, since it looks like the machine is not working properly with 120VAC.  The website says that these machines work with 110/230VAC, but Michael just told me that they actually work only with 230VAC.  I'm waiting to hear back from him about peak power consumption before I buy a transformer.  I'll post more after that.  I hope someone finds this helpful!

Update: Michael from SmallSMT says that a 40um filter on the air line is fine, so I ordered Airtac GFR: Filter/Regulator with Metal Bowl - GFR300C08AC3T (I've heard bad things about plastic and glass bowl filters, and this one has an automatic water drain).  Michael also says "Your main switching power supply is able to deliver 480W but used maybe 200W. The X motor has 200W, Y Motor 400W. So maximum peak power consumption can be 700VA if you run the machine on high speed." It looks to me like this actually comes out to 800W, but I got a 750W AcuPwr step-up transformer (ACUPWR AU-750), which is tested to 900W continuous. I expect to get these parts late next week -- more updates then!

Update 2/20/17: Transformer is here, still waiting for air filter. Machine powers up nicely. You should avoid GFI outlets: Big inductive draw-down when machine powers on will trip GFI, but standard breaker is fine.  Haven't programmed a board yet, but I've moved X, Y, heads 1 & 2 (Z and theta), West tape advancer, and switched through the 3 cameras.  Have not loaded any tapes yet. Learning: I thought "VideoNo1" and "VideoNo2" would cycle between the cameras, but learned that you should always use "VideoNo1", as "VideoNo2" crashes the program.  Within "VideoNo1" you can choose to look at any of the 3 cameras ("Mark Cam", "Bot. Cam1", "Bot. Cam2"). Will post a video soon!

[Smallsmt]

The V2 software support only one video interface at 640x480 resolution other interfaces will crash the V2 software.
Video switching is done on the V2 machine controller.

[JanMan]

Hi CaveMan,  Can you update us on how you feel about the machine.  Thanks

[PrintTec]

dag Marc
wat ben je allemaal aan het rommelen?
o, o, o...