smoke detectors

[RIDDICC]

Hi!

Is there any proof that smoke detectors can help to survive an unrequested fire?

In F.Rep.Germ we had hardly any smoke alarms until 2006, but the smoke death rate went down like in (for example) the U.S.A.
But since we have smoke alarms (mostly photo electric with annual tests by specially certified personnel) in almost every bedroom, this trend seems to be destroyed.
I made a picture about that: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fire_and_smoke_deaths_per_inhabitant_%28F.Rep.GERM%29.svg

Furthermore I mentioned, that there are several wrong statements spread by the
government (e. g.: the death rate in 2010 is the same as in 1997) and
the insurances (e. g.: in 2015 the death rate was allegedly just 50% of 2000).

Is my picture somehow misleading?

Is there something special to do with those thingies at the ceiling?

E. g.:
(A) Not trying to play fire fighter, because the alarm is still too late for unprotected fire extinguishing?
(B) Never leave children alone because they don't care for loud noise and/or instructions?
(C) Still be careful with candles and cigs, because the smoke alarm does not always help?

P. S.:
Why is it, that hardly anybody watches my youtube video ("smoke alarms in germany") about this?

Thx.

Bye.

[mmagin]

It seems entirely possible that this smoke detector mandate just happens to correlate with a vast increase in cheap unsafe electrical products being imported from overseas. 

[RIDDICC]

mmagin:

vast increase in cheap unsafe electrical products

yup... could be unsafe devices...
the numbers are quite small... but they look wrong since years...
so that would be an ongoing problem...

usually the european market is quite strictly regulated...
e. g. u cant import the glasses of a famous US artists, if they do not have certified lenses
(the buyer had to destroy them, while the customs officer was watching, then he was allowed to take the shards and the undamaged frame with him)
 

[m98]

Didn't know that the conspiracy nuts are after smoke detectors now...
Also, some other contents of his website are slightly bizarre.

[Someone]

Is there any proof that smoke detectors can help to survive an unrequested fire?

There is, but its a slippery slope where the incremental improvements probably are overstated:
http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate/Legal_and_Constitutional_Affairs/Fire_safety/
In reviewing the rules for smoke detectors in Australia the industry came out in force supporting more laws to increase their work/profits with little proof that the measures would be cost effective, attached below is one of the few critical examinations of smoke detectors.

[EEVblog]

To suggest fire alarms do not saves lives is ridiculous.
There are many reports of people being woken up by their fire alarm and have escaped to fire alive. You only need one such case to make it worthwhile.
Why anyone would argue against such unobtrusive protection measures is beyond me.

http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-research/fire-statistics-and-reports/fire-statistics/fire-safety-equipment/smoke-alarms-in-us-home-fires
http://www.nfpa.org/public-education/by-topic/smoke-alarms/reports-and-statistics-about-smoke-alarms
http://www.mysmokealarm.org/smoke-alarm-statistics/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071009/

[VK5RC]

Is it the 'annual inspection by certified person' that is the issue?
That would annoy me.

[Someone]

To suggest fire alarms do not saves lives is ridiculous.
There are many reports of people being woken up by their fire alarm and have escaped to fire alive. You only need one such case to make it worthwhile.
Why anyone would argue against such unobtrusive protection measures is beyond me.

If the cost of smoke detectors outweighed the benefit of saving that life then yes it would not be worthwhile. The discussion linked above makes it clear that there is insufficient data to make clear decisions and that better data needs to be collected to guide future decisions. Instead we get silly things like in QLD:
http://www.masterelectricians.com.au/content/Document/Members_QLD/QFES_New-Smoke-Alarm-Legislation.pdf
10 Year life mandated, disposable detectors, and prohibiting ionising detection while mandating a particular detection method rather than a required performance. A smoke detector is an important thing to have and keep maintained, but adding more and more legislative requirements around it is only going to profit the industry supporting it. The questions of efficacy are real and valid:
https://www.firefightingincanada.com/prevention/smoke-alarms-evaluating-effectiveness-1332
https://www.nist.gov/engineering-laboratory/smoke-alarm-research
http://freakonomics.com/2012/02/06/how-many-lives-do-smoke-alarms-really-save/
The last link presents a very persuasive lack of correlation between installations of smoke detectors and the rate of death from fires.

Promote them all you like and use them if they make you feel safer, but like bicycle helmets and seat belts the impressive statistics suggesting they are effective rely on synthetic tests rather than real world use.

[RIDDICC]

Is it the 'annual inspection by certified person' that is the issue?
That would annoy me.

That certified person is only one of the problems...
They seem to be trained to sell devices for places, that r not covered by law (e. g. my kitchen)...
Furthermore they stand in my bedroom with their street shoes (the last inspector used over-shoes, that he put on somewhere outside my apartment (in the best case when he was inside the stairwell)).
Of course I see, that many people do not treat their smoke alarms as good as they should, but that is no reason to believe, that I am one of them...
Funnily my landlord cannot bill me for the device itself, but she can bill me for the inspection...   

My other problems with that smoke alarm law are

• the lies (they do not only get the numbers wrong, but they also say, that prevention (e. g. by better structural engineering) does not help),
• the questionable benefit (maybe i could buy something more useful for the same money... e. g. thick gypsum casings for my devices in my bedroom that I do not turn off in the night), and
• the emotional reaction (I am automatically ridiculous and a nut, when I am worried about the paradox development of the death rate).

[RIDDICC]

To suggest fire alarms do not saves lives is ridiculous.
There are many reports of people being woken up by their fire alarm and have escaped to fire alive. You only need one such case to make it worthwhile.
Why anyone would argue against such unobtrusive protection measures is beyond me.

• the conclusion comes first, i guess... 
• just because someone says, that the smoke alarm woke him/her up, that does not prove, that he/she would have stayed asleep,
   if there was no smoke alarm.
• maybe it is my quackery/lie/paternalism allergy...
• regarding that US statistic, that seems to provide alternative facts regarding the german numbers: Even if the probability to die due to a fire rises by a factor of >2, if there is no working smoke alarm, there might be other factors, that really cause that higher risk (e. g. a frivolous use of open fire).
• Correlation is not causation: The Simpsons had that discussion, too:

So I just continue to believe that fire is still dangerous (in spite of my professionally inspected smoke detectors)... 

[Simon]

It sounds like some countries mandate a smoke alarm inspection like in the UK everyone thinks they have to have pat testing done and as soon as someone rthinks up a silly thing the insurers jump on the band wagon and use it as yet another excuse to deny claims.

[james_s]

I don't like being mandated to put certain things in my own home. I wouldn't be comfortable not having smoke alarms though and would have them whether the government said I needed them or not, same with a CO alarm, if you have any fuel burning appliances then it's just common sense. Certainly a lot of people have died in fires that occurred while they slept. As cheap as they are, I can think of no reason to not have at least one on every floor. I don't need proof that they reduce the risk of me dying in a fire, it's plainly obvious to anyone with half a functioning brain that being awakened at the first sign of smoke is going to reduce the chance of dying in the ensuing fire.

[RIDDICC]

[...] it's just common sense. [...] reduce the chance of dying in the ensuing fire.

ok...
but: why is the green line so flat then?
is there anything stupid one can do wrong with those photo electric smoke detectors?
besides stealing their batteries, because: the remote control needs batteries, too...   

[cgroen]

I know of more people that was saved by their smoke detectors, this seems a little "tin foil hat" 

[james_s]

[...] it's just common sense. [...] reduce the chance of dying in the ensuing fire.

ok...
but: why is the green line so flat then?
is there anything stupid one can do wrong with those photo electric smoke detectors?
besides stealing their batteries, because: the remote control needs batteries, too...   

I don't know, because other factors? I suspect it's one of those things that is really hard to measure because there are probably a lot of fires detected early on and put out by the resident before they got bad enough to require calling the fire department and evacuating. I've certainly been alerted to things that very well could have become an actual fire if left unnoticed. It's similar to the gun debate that rages over here, how do you measure the number of crimes that didn't occur because of knowledge that the potential victim is or may be armed?

[RIDDICC]

I know of more people that was saved by their smoke detectors [...]

uhm?!
i would like to point out kindly, that this kind of answer is no _answer_ in the real sense...

btw:
i do not know a single person personally, who even claims that, he/she has been saved by the smoke alert...
seems like i only know people, who do not have unrequested fire events... 

[james_s]

Well, I know several of them, and I went to school with a guy who fell asleep smoking and died in a house fire, it was determined that there was no working smoke alarms in the house.

[RIDDICC]

From "Twelve Monkey (1995)":
Astrophysicist: "It's obscene, all the violence, [...]. You might say...we're the next endangered species...human beings!"

So everybody (but me) thinks, that this weird trend in F.Rep.Germany must come from something else than those smoke detectors?

[james_s]

Yes, that seems to be the case.

How could a smoke detector possibly increase the risk of dying in a fire? Even if it did nothing at all, surely it couldn't cause an increase?

[SeanB]

Having the detector means there is a reliance on it, and this then leads to less concern about things like having flammable materials around, having flammable materials near sources of ignition, and being more risky with things regarding fire, because of the unconscious belief that there is a safety net there. Then you find that the detector either had a flat battery, or the battery was removed because of cooking triggering it, or it simply has failed for some reason.

[Nusa]

I've been woken by smoke alarms twice in the middle of the night, so yes, they will wake me up.

First time a family member was making hard boiled eggs on the stove, then got distracted and forgot about them. Evenually it boiled dry and started producing dense smoke as the eggs burned. Thick enough to stain the plaster above the stove. I had to repaint part of the wall and ceiling. The pan was ruined.

Second time it was two teen girls playing with candles in their bedroom, eventually setting off their bedroom alarm. It woke me through two closed doors and in the opposite corner of the house. The wife slept through it, however. The kids got a big lecture in the morning...what they were doing and especially where they were doing it wasn't safe.

And then there was the time someone started a fireplace fire without opening the damper. Smoke alarm went off. I wasn't sleeping that time, so it was fixed quickly.

[RIDDICC]

[...]making hard boiled eggs on the stove [...] candles in their bedroom [...  fireplace [...]

ok... ic...
I can't allow myself to use a stove/oven, that does not turn off itself after some minutes (they have something like a screen saver: when i dont touch the dials, they say: "bing" or "beep" respectively...)...
Open fire is a complete no-go, because of my neurological condition, so that I do not even have matches/lighters... 

My 24Vdc cables have fuses at both ends...
And my emergency power batteries use that LiFePO4 chemistry, that Boeing did not use...

I hope, that I did not miss anything...   

[james_s]

I've never seen a stove that automatically turns itself down, I guess they must exist but I would think that would be more of an annoyance than a help. I love my gas stove with good old fashioned mechanical valve knobs. Yes you need to be careful, but whenever one tries to make something idiot proof, the universe will find a better idiot.

I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly don't rely on smoke alarms and behave any more carelessly knowing I have them. I mean I always wear a seatbelt in a car too that doesn't mean I drive like a madman and rely on the seatbelt to save me. It's just one more tool at my disposal should the unthinkable happen.

It could be argued that a carbon monoxide alarm is even more important than a smoke alarm anywhere that has a fuel burning appliance. CO is colorless, odorless, and often kills people who are wide awake. The symptoms of CO poisoning creep up slowly and start with confusion, preventing many people from taking corrective action until it's too late. Not all cases are due to carelessness either, a malfunctioning appliance or leaky flue can let CO into the residence without anyone knowing. Just recently several people including emergency responders died in a hotel swimming pool facility due to a CO leak believed to have come from a malfunctioning pool heater.

[HighVoltage]

I am living in northern Germany where smoke detectors are mandatory in each bedroom and each hallway.
(Every state in Germany has different rules about smoke detectors)

We are just renovating a house that will be rented out soon.
So, as a matter of fact, I had the "Schornsteinfeger" = chimney sweeper at the house today to go over the rules.
This guy knew what he was talking about and clearly stated that fire related injuries have been reduced dramatically since smoke detectors have been mandatory.

In this part of Germany the chimney sweeper is coming once a year to check the heating, ovens and clean the chimney (Mandatory). However, he does NOT have to check the smoke detectors, this is the job of the people living in the house. And he definitely does not want to sell smoke detectors. He just gave me a suggestion to not get the very cheap detectors from ebay but also do not get the expensive detectors because they do not work better either.

I don't believe there is a conspiracy in having smoke detectors installed.
Nobody is making really big money on it and saving some people from a possible fire seems to be a very good thing.



 

[RIDDICC]

[...] fire related injuries have been reduced dramatically [...] However, he does NOT have to check the smoke detectors [...]

• reduced dramatically? do u know the corresponding iCD-10 codes? I only found the terminal cases (ICD-10 codes: X0, X76 and Y26) and there was clearly _no_ dramatic reduction.
• even if the state legislation does not demand explicitly to inspect them with a specially certified licensed inspector once a year: there is still some federal law, that demands to take "every" "possible" measure to protect the renter (Source: Federal Erection Paper)... i. e.: in case of an unrequested fire event the landlord might face various legal problems, if he cannot "prove" that the smoke detector was "functional" somewhen in the nearer past.