Soldering and hot Air station

[Sovereign]

Hi to all i am new to the site and i hope i wont bore you!
So to the topic i live in Greece and i work as a second job in repairing(laptops,computers etc).
I had a hakko fx-888D that recently died and is beyond repair so i need a new soldering station plus a hot air cause many times i needed one and because i did not own one i lost many customers cause of this!
I am considering on buying a hakko fx 951 and a Quick 861DW!But recently i just saw the Pace ADS200 and i think it is also too good!
I read most of the topic on the forum and everything but i can't find anyone that bought a fx-951 from an European seller at a reasonable price!The  https://www.batterfly.com/shop/index.php?route=common/home does not have any available and i need something to get working asap!
My questions are:
1.Are the stations that i mentioned good one in doing 95% of most jobs considering the tips and everything?
2.Any good European sellers that i can find to buy them if so?
3.Can you suggest anything else like the Pace ADS200 if it is good and where i can find it?Should i prefer it over the hakko?
4.For the hakko i found this seller at ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hakko-FX-951-Genuine-originel-new-neuf-avec-tip-whit-tip/173237482584?hash=item2855c23458:g:K-gAAOSwBNFauJzg&autorefresh=true at what i think it is a reasonable price!Is there any way before i buy it to see if it is genuine or not?
Thank you all in advance and sorry for the long post!
Hope you can help me out!

[Nusa]

The ebay Hakko you linked is a fake. The very cradle isn't even close to the real article and the lack of a jack for the sleep cradle on the back of the unit (the feature is missing entirely) is obvious. And the label says it's made in "S'Pore" instead of Japan.

See also:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/question-about-hakko-fx-951-is-this-one-a-cppy/

[Sovereign]

Hi thank you for your answer!
I was like 90% sure that the seller was my best option to get a genuine hakko!
I even messaged him and he was telling me that it is a genuine 100% hakko one!
Thank god!
So no luck anywhere else that i can get my hands on something genuine from hakko to europe?
I am also considering getting an 110V US and get a 220V to 110V transformer if i am out of options!

[sn4k3]

Never 100% trust a seller on ebay, aliexpress or alibaba, they only want to sell, and some don't understand about the products they are selling. Even if you trigger a dispute for a fake item they don't care, most of the people would keep the item because they never saw a genuine unit and don't know thats fake, maybe only things don't go so well.
Better buy from reputable store with good warranty.
Buy a original from store will be always cheaper than eBay, because eBay have high fees for sellers, even more when you buy from Europe which is a resell of resell, so a original new there is cost much more.

Quick 861DW is the way to go for hot air

[Sovereign]

Can anyone confirm is this hakko is the real deal?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/HAKKO-FX-951-GENUINE/222895537318?hash=item33e59bfca6:g:BWUAAOSwweRZjaKb
Also there is a difference with the fm 2028 and the fm 2027 iron?
Pace ADS200 is available on Europe?

[Nusa]

Can anyone confirm is this hakko is the real deal?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/HAKKO-FX-951-GENUINE/222895537318?hash=item33e59bfca6:g:BWUAAOSwweRZjaKb
Also there is a difference with the fm 2028 and the fm 2027 iron?
Pace ADS200 is available on Europe?

The FX-951 pictures look real. However, the price seems significantly higher than ordering from a listed Hakko distributor in the UK:
http://www.dancap.co.uk/soldering/fx951.html found via https://www.hakko.com/world_network.html
Wouldn't surprise me at all if the ebay guy was buying from them and pocketing the difference. Caveat emptor.

[KL27x]

is a difference with the fm 2028 and the fm 2027 iron?

If you notice, there is a yellow ring near the back end of the 2028 handpiece. In the original 2027 handpiece, this ring is translucent, and there's a fabulous LED that shines different colors when you plug it in. If you solder in the dark, you might even notice it. 

Apparently, they decided to update the handpiece by removing this LED. Maybe it cost too much, or maybe it caused some customer service issues/confusion/complaints. Or maybe the feature was buggy? I think it was supposed to change color from green to red when the iron was hot?

Maybe the transparent plastic wasn't strong enough and was susceptible to breakage. The thin ring is the exposed part of what is essentially a threaded coupler, so it has to bear some forces.

[sn4k3]

Can anyone confirm is this hakko is the real deal?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/HAKKO-FX-951-GENUINE/222895537318?hash=item33e59bfca6:g:BWUAAOSwweRZjaKb
Also there is a difference with the fm 2028 and the fm 2027 iron?
Pace ADS200 is available on Europe?

Pace ADS200 will be avaliable to Europe but after US

[nanofrog]

Can anyone confirm is this hakko is the real deal?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/HAKKO-FX-951-GENUINE/222895537318?hash=item33e59bfca6:g:BWUAAOSwweRZjaKb
Also there is a difference with the fm 2028 and the fm 2027 iron?
Pace ADS200 is available on Europe?

Even if that Hakko is genuine (I suspect it is), it's too expensive IMHO as well (genuine US model). Regarding the handle (2027 vs. 2028), the 2027's ring near the cable lights up red when it's heating.

Regarding the new Pace ADS200, it's extremely new right now, so stock is thin here in the US, and there's typically a delay to other markets. There's a couple that will be reviewed by EEVBlog members (Chris Matthews and Dave Jones), but they're not up yet. Tip selection is decent to start IMHO, but it's not yet as encompassing as other brands (more mature tip selection as they've had time to respond to customer requests/feedback).

As it seems you're in a hurry, I'd recommend you take a serious look at an Ersa i-Con 1. Excellent performer, it's not horribly expensive, and parts availability in the EU is excellent (Ersa is a German company). It's a little more expensive than an FX-951, but you can get one now and it's UI kicks Hakko's to the curb (much easier to use).

If you don't care about the screen being backlit or the ability to use other tools, then you could step down to the Nano. Avoid the Pico, as it's not ESD compliant. Ersa's current stations all use the same tips (102 series), and there's an excellent selection.

Plenty of reviews and comments regarding Ersa's products are available both here in the EEVBlog forum and on YouTube.

[Sovereign]

So the FM 2027 with the 2028 use the same tips and everything?Just the led is the main difference?So i suppose i should aim for the 2027 and after the 2032 with smaller tips for micro soldering!
I just saw the ersa and it is damn good but i have one question!Aren't the new tips used by hakko,pace etc the t12,t15 better?Regarding the thermal sensor and everything?
If i cannot get a UK version of the hakko i will go for the ersa seems like really good!

[nanofrog]

So the FM 2027 with the 2028 use the same tips and everything?Just the led is the main difference?So i suppose i should aim for the 2027 and after the 2032 with smaller tips for micro soldering!
I just saw the ersa and it is damn good but i have one question!Aren't the new tips used by hakko,pace etc the t12,t15 better?Regarding the thermal sensor and everything?
If i cannot get a UK version of the hakko i will go for the ersa seems like really good!

The LED is all that differs between the 2027 & 2028 handles. They use the same grips & tips. And they offer enough tip selection you can do micro soldering without buying an additional iron.

Regarding Ersa's tips, no they're not cartridge types. But just because one uses a cartridge vs. another that doesn't, that doesn't automatically mean a cartridge tip will give the best performance. There's more to it than that. Things such as tip mass, the control loop (speed & accuracy), and power all influence how fast a station can react to a temperature drop and continue to keep the heat flowing until the joint is completed.

More modern non-cartridge designs from the likes of Ersa and Weller are still very competitive (equal to some cartridge systems, outperform others, depending on what's being compared). Try to compare products that are in the same bracket, not entry level vs. top end. You'll find the performance differences indeterminable in for most usage cases in fact.

Beyond overall performance, costs, local availability, and tip selection, it tends to come down to other considerations such as ergonomics/comfort, ease of use types of aspects (user preference).

[KL27x]

Aren't the new tips used by hakko,pace etc the t12,t15 better?Regarding the thermal sensor and everything?

You can say they're better in one aspect. The practical difference is probably not what most people seem to think.

A car that goes 0-60 in 10 seconds is "better" than a car that does it in 10.001 seconds, right?

If that's what makes your car better, you are going to find ways to make that seem like a bigger difference than it really is. So far, I have yet to see anyone quantify the "improvement," despite it would be very easy to set this up and show the difference. Maybe one day I'll do this.

My own extensive use of a T12 clone with 24.5V supply and an 888 show virtually no significant difference other than 1 single thing: warm up time. There is nowhere no-how an ability to solder multilayer board ground planes with a pointed tip without bumping up the temp to ridiculous, same as with a the classic irons and their "obsolete" technology. But this doesn't stop most people from suggesting this is the case, based on this whole idea that cartridge is "better" and their own misconception of what faster warm up time actually means. (this faster warm up time is 99% due to power to mass ratio, which does not magically increase performance once to temp when you're doing this by decreasing mass and keeping power the same). Maybe there is one borderline case in a million where the very slight difference means you actually do save time of changing tip/temp setting. But there are probably plenty of cases where the 888 performs better than the 951. The 951 T12/15 tips are a bag of compromise of which the cartridge tech is just one aspect.

If I can do 99.9% of my soldering at a set temp that is so low I can leave the iron on all day/night and not care and it never needs to be cleaned and each tip lasts for around a decade, any improvement via cartridge technology is not a practical improvement unless it can do things that I cannot, already. And the T12 doesn't do anything different other than the warmup time.

Dave made a video that demonstrates what exactly the improvement is, for those that can't inherently grasp the physics at hand. It's in the EEV Blog Forum "Soldering irons Power Delivery Explained." The amount of temperature drop between the joint and the sensor can be reduced. What he doesn't do is go into any discussion about the practical implications or make any attempt at quantification. If the end, the improvement is only significant if it results in higher efficiency for the user. Presumably this is going to be due to tip life and tip cleaning. If you have to run one station at 300C to do something as well as the other one at 310C, then the practical difference may be none, or it could even go the other way due to other factors.

Many otherwise savvy people readily drink and defend a particular kind of koolaid. It is easy to imagine some theoretical benefit, but I have doubts that very many of us human beings and even EE's actually understand basic physics enough to be able to tie that into the big picture. First straw they understand they grasp and say wow, I get it. Nope. There is a very simple and easy and scientific way to compare performance of different irons if you understand both basic physics and what is important to the soldering process. Instead, we get people defending their koolaid.

[GreyWoolfe]

But there are probably plenty of cases where the 888 performs better than the 951. The 951 T12/15 tips are a bag of compromise of which the cartridge tech is just one aspect.

I had a real Hakko 936, the 888 predecessor.  I also have a 951.  There is no case that I ran into that the 936 performs better than the 951.  Ease and speed of tip changes on the fly, warm up times and thermal recovery are worlds different, with the 951 the clear winner by a large margin.  Tip size for tip size, the 951 outdid the 936 in every single test I put them through, which I will admit, weren't many.  I didn't document anything as I was doing it just out of curiosity, so I have no documented proof, just my words.  By the way, I did sell the 936 to a fellow ham club member and she loves it.  I am happy for her, I enjoyed the 936 whilst I had it. 

I enjoy my 951 and my Metcal MX 500P.  I am not, however, a fanboy who screams from the mountain top and denigrates everyone else's choice.  If asked my opinion or what I have, I always preface what I say with the statement that YMMV and to do your own research.  I also make an offer to come over and try my toys if that will help make an informed decision.

[KL27x]

But there are probably plenty of cases where the 888 performs better than the 951.

I actually meant that to be in specific cherry picked testing, not in actual practice.

I mean if the roles were reversed, it would be rather easy to make graphs to show where the 888 beats the 951 in very, very specific things (like where thermal mass would be the dominating factor).

FWIW, the 888 has 17% more power than the 936. And T18 tips have significantly better performance than 900M.

speed of tip changes on the fly, warm up times and thermal recovery are worlds different,

check
check
what is your test for this and how does that relate to soldering? (rhetorical. Not asking for actual answer) For me, I use the most efficient tip for the job and set the temp where I can do it at my fastest rate with no waiting on the iron. And if this set temp is such that I can leave the iron on all day and night, then there's no problem with thermal recovery. Would it be nice if I use the same temp to solder ground planes with a BR tip? Heck yeah. Wake me up when a non RF cartridge tip can do that. And to be thorough, there is more than one way to do that. If you can make a BR tip that you can leave at 375C 8 hrs a day which wets without cleaning and lasts 10 years, then that works, too. I'll give that a gold star.

There is no case that I ran into that the 936 performs better than the 951.

heat up time granted. tip change granted. As stated at the top, I do not expect a practical advantage of the 888. But I wonder in what way the 951 outperformed the 936, if any, and by what criteria. I'm talking about the "oh, the 951 is BETTER at soldering to multilayer ground planes with teensy tips." If BETTER means you only have to temporarily turn it up to 360 vs 370, then I don't see the practical difference.

If I am going to state X is better than Y in a practical way, I will be able to demonstrate it with specific practical situation that I have encountered, if not actual measurements in a contrived test setup. I'm sure peoples' needs are not all the same, but in my usage, I have found I need to run these stations at more or less the same set temps to do the same things. And in any case, this set temp is well below the temp where I would need to worry about oxidation or anything else. Like many tens of degrees below "who cares?" And the T12 doesn't do anything particularly better that I have come across which I can point to.

This from a position of consistently doing some batch pcb soldering and forcing myself to use the t12 station for over 2 months. As well as any other soldering I needed. Advantage, nil. I missed nothing going back to 888, and the 888 has several advantages for me, specifically.

There are many reasons why all the major manufacturers are pursuing this cartridge thing besides performance.* Aside from the ability to use smaller thermal mass tips to increase warm-up time and hot swapping of tips, the performance benefits are not necessarily that obvious to me.

*Keeping up with the Jones's regarding marketing. Locking in customers to your ecosystem. And as Pace rep said, in the ADS thread, one of the goals is to reduce the cost of entry on the station and make it up in the margin on the cartridges. Inkjet printer model. The money is in the consumables, in the long run. Making a machine that works and lasts forever with little maintenance is bad for business. Goodbye 888 and the like; hello future. When the marketers and shills are done with the internet, it will be heresy to remember how well these things worked without adding the requisite modifiers "for the time," "reasonably well," "considering the technology."

[Sovereign]

Hi again to all!
I sent so many messages to nearly most of the European distributors that are listed on the Hakko official site!
The answer from most of them was that they can't sell outside of their own country because that is the policy and agreement with the Hakko!
So yeah no luck on finding one!And paying 300 euros from e-bay and not being sure if it is a genuine or not seems like a rather bad idea!
So as nanofrog stated it seems that the ersa is a good if not a better station to go for!I was also thinking about the Quick 236 ESD but ersa seems to have far more tips than the Quick one!
Will i find it like cheaper in any other site other that the one nanofrog linked me(https://www.ersa-shop.com/ersa-icon1-profilötstation-itool-150w-autostandby-p-2224.html)?

[nanofrog]

heat up time granted. tip change granted. As stated at the top, I do not expect a practical advantage of the 888. But I wonder in what way the 951 outperformed the 936, if any, and by what criteria. I'm talking about the "oh, the 951 is BETTER at soldering to multilayer ground planes with teensy tips." If BETTER means you only have to temporarily turn it up to 360 vs 370, then I don't see the practical difference.

If I am going to state X is better than Y in a practical way, I will be able to demonstrate it with specific practical situation that I have encountered, if not actual measurements in a contrived test setup. I'm sure peoples' needs are not all the same, but in my usage, I have found I need to run these stations at more or less the same set temps to do the same things. And in any case, this set temp is well below the temp where I would need to worry about oxidation or anything else. Like many tens of degrees below "who cares?" And the T12 doesn't do anything particularly better that I have come across which I can point to.

This from a position of consistently doing some batch pcb soldering and forcing myself to use the t12 station for over 2 months. As well as any other soldering I needed. Advantage, nil. I missed nothing going back to 888, and the 888 has several advantages for me, specifically.

There are many reasons why all the major manufacturers are pursuing this cartridge thing besides performance.* Aside from the ability to use smaller thermal mass tips to increase warm-up time and hot swapping of tips, the performance benefits are not necessarily that obvious to me.

*Keeping up with the Jones's regarding marketing. Locking in customers to your ecosystem. And as Pace rep said, in the ADS thread, one of the goals is to reduce the cost of entry on the station and make it up in the margin on the cartridges. Inkjet printer model. The money is in the consumables, in the long run. Making a machine that works and lasts forever with little maintenance is bad for business. Goodbye 888 and the like; hello future. When the marketers and shills are done with the internet, it will be heresy to remember how well these things worked without adding the requisite modifiers "for the time," "reasonably well," "considering the technology."

FWIW, I get this, and is the true heart of the discussion IMHO (what does one really need for their specific usage pattern?  ). 

Unfortunately, this isn't an easy thing to determine for someone who's not done more than say 4 layer boards with even a half-decent iron before any specifics are considered. So we're really looking at a case-by-case bases as a general rule IME (incl. UI, ergonomics, and so on types of variances beyond performance, tip selection, local availability and so on).

Regarding the Pace ADS200 as well as other products that use a similar if not the same model, come down to the initial price isn't expensive, while they expect to make their profits on consumables (tips in particular).

Of course, other brand manufacturers other products' use the same business case (lock the user into their consumables as there's no alternatives in the beginning few years at least).

[Shock]

3.Can you suggest anything else like the Pace ADS200 if it is good and where i can find it?Should i prefer it over the hakko?

Personally I've been holding out for a station like the Pace ADS200. Their previous models came with a pretty hefty price tag here, similar situation to Europe. The Pace ADS200 is better priced and cheaper to run than the Hakko, has superior handle/case materials (as best I can tell), I like the form factor and display as well. Aside from not liking the look of the FX-951, I decided to wait.

I ended up ordering a couple of Pace ADS200 stations from the states but I think a few other forum members have units arriving and on the way.

Really the only options in Europe seem to be Esra and Hakko until the Pace ADS200 lands, most people have written off Weller for various reasons.  You can always hold out and make up your mind after a few reviews anyway.

[Elasia]

I ended up ordering the Pace ADS200 as well due to it seemingly having a very high value proposition for what you are getting.  The biggest downside for you is that you wont have euro stock until Mayish it looked like from what Aaron said in the thread for it.. and even then it will most likely get scooped up.

I ordered mine a few days ago and it looks like im already in the 2nd US batch that tequipment.net is getting and that wont ship till 4/20.

I use a hakko at work.. cant beat em.. great iron.. but the price point is a pretty penny, same with jbc.  This ADS seems to be a solid canidate for a hakko/jbc replacement for a fraction of the price.  I would not be surprised if Pace takes a good bit of the market away from hakko/jbc if the early reviews are good.

[nanofrog]

Pace's tips are well made and last a long time as I understand it from members that use one, so that could be quite important. 

Shock: do note that the initial ADS200 models offered do not include the set-back stand (or even a separate P/N you can order ATM). A proper set-back stand (connects to the station), improves tip life, and reduces energy consumption. At a price of course (included or as an option). 

As it happens, the current Hakko FX-951 stations include a connected stand for additional setback features at current street prices.  Without such stands, both stations rely solely on timers that the user can change (my Weller WD1 station as well).

There will be ADS200 versions that ship with a setback version of the stand, but aren't yet available (stand isn't currently in production yet according to a Pace representative that's logged in here on EEVBlog). No prices just yet, but it will affect cost comparisons to equivalent systems.

[Elasia]

Pace's tips are well made and last a long time as I understand it from members that use one, so that could be quite important. 

Shock: do note that the initial ADS200 models offered do not include the set-back stand (or even a separate P/N you can order ATM). A proper set-back stand (connects to the station), improves tip life, and reduces energy consumption. At a price of course (included or as an option). 

As it happens, the current Hakko FX-951 stations include a connected stand for additional setback features at current street prices.  Without such stands, both stations rely solely on timers that the user can change (my Weller WD1 station as well).

There will be ADS200 versions that ship with a setback version of the stand, but aren't yet available (stand isn't currently in production yet according to a Pace representative that's logged in here on EEVBlog). No prices just yet, but it will affect cost comparisons to equivalent systems.

There is one interesting option that pace is adding to the 1.2 firmware revision, they are going to change their minimum preset button temp to 350 to match the isb equivlent temp so that is always an option as well now minus the early production units with 1.1 but looks like they can do an easy eeprom change out or swap you irons if this is something you want and have a 1.1 rev unit.

Only downside is you consume one of your 3 preset slots

That was an enhancement suggestion from a member of this forum btw... pretty cool

[Shock]

Yeah I'm aware of the differences and as someone mentioned in the main Pace ADS200 thread you can always make a setback switch. Not sure if they got this from me (as I mentioned it a while ago) but yeah the preset trick works.

This is why manual knobs are so great in the absence of setback. Go to sleep, now wake up! It's the next best thing.

[Elasia]

Yeah I'm aware of the differences and as someone mentioned in the main Pace ADS200 thread you can always make a setback switch. Not sure if they got this from me (as I mentioned it a while ago) but yeah the preset trick works.

This is why manual knobs are so great in the absence of setback. Go to sleep, now wake up! It's the next best thing.

LOL my wes51 is marked with whiteout for 'preset' temps... tear your heart out fancy pants digital bologna.. i technically can have unlimited presets!    Or would that be one giant preset with a very large gradient curve?

[Sovereign]

Hi to all again due to work issues and many searching i finally managed to find the hakko here in Greece!The unit although seems a bit pricey!285euros for the unti without any cartridge  so basically with 1-2 cartridges we are roughly at 310euros!I would like to ask a final thought though after researching the ersa i-con 1 station i found that many people say that the tips of the ersa are well made and of high quality!The ersa costs at the moment 342 euros without shipping!
Does anyone know if i purchase the unit are there available tips also with the unit or just the station?
And finally given the price of the unit do you believe that the ersa in the long run would be a better investment than the hakko?
Thank you again in advance and i am sorry for the long post!

[nanofrog]

Hi to all again due to work issues and many searching i finally managed to find the hakko here in Greece!The unit although seems a bit pricey!285euros for the unti without any cartridge  so basically with 1-2 cartridges we are roughly at 310euros!I would like to ask a final thought though after researching the ersa i-con 1 station i found that many people say that the tips of the ersa are well made and of high quality!The ersa costs at the moment 342 euros without shipping!
Does anyone know if i purchase the unit are there available tips also with the unit or just the station?
And finally given the price of the unit do you believe that the ersa in the long run would be a better investment than the hakko?
Thank you again in advance and i am sorry for the long post!

The Ersa comes with a 1.6mm chisel tip.

Personally, I'd opt for the Ersa rather than the Hakko if they're that close in price (Ersa has a nice UI, while Hakko's is a PITA). Tip quality for both brands is excellent, as is selection. Another advantage with Ersa is availability in the EU; you can get tips and replacement parts easier than Hakko.

To make tip changes more convenient, I'd recommend getting a couple of extra tip retainers (they're not expensive).

[RobertPS]

If you can live with the analog dial and the price of the cartridges, the JBC BT-2BWA is 299 euros with 2 tips.